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      12-20-2012, 03:18 PM   #45
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BMW is famous for their steering, if history repeats itself, BMW will improve on the F30's steering. My guess is that they will work on the N20's engine note too.
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      12-20-2012, 03:38 PM   #46
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BMW, are you listening: the F30 is...

I've had BMW's going back to a used e46. First BMW product came in the form of an R53 Mini, then the e46, an R53 Mini Cooper S, 2008 e90 328i with an manual and ZSP, and now we have a 2006 e53 (since 7,000 miles) and a 2011 e90 328i xdrive.

My wife finds BMWs rather boring (if not ugly) in the styling department and (flame suit) often prefers the styling of Mercedes cars. Although I seem to like BMW's for many reasons, my wife often reminds me why we've become BMW fanatics: the way they drive. The e46, became a "must have" after my wife's first test drive, and after having our first child she insisted on the X5 after exhaustively checking out every other option. For an SUV, the X5 had "amazing handling" (her words), so we stretched into a CPO which is still going strong with 67,000 miles (knock, knock). The fun factor of BMW softened her to my trading around from the e46 to a MINI to two e90's now...it really has been quite fun and I settled in to the latest: a 2011 328 xDrive with everything on it -- we picked it up in March of this year at a steep, steep discount. It now has just 8,000 miles. I hope to have this car for a while.

Right or wrong, we consider ourselves part of a somewhat important demographic for BMW: not particularly wealthy, but we do okay. Early 40's with younger kids who both had Volkswagens when we met thirteen years ago (a Golf and a Jetta). As our incomes grew, we began to experiment with other brands because we were bored with VW and settled with BMW.

I'm not a f30 "hater" because I have an e90...I'm not a hater at all. I test drove a 2012 when they first came out, yet settled on the e90 because of the xDrive and all of the other features I was able to get for the discount...what a deal! I liked the idea of the f30 (slightly larger, much better mileage) - but was fine with my decision to get e90 number 2.

This week, I took my e90 in for service (voluntary interim oil change and a few other minor things) and was given an f30 loaner. My impressions:

BMW did a lot of good things here. After over 100 miles on the loaner, I was very, very impressed with the N20 engine and the 8-speed tranny: What a great combination. Mileage was impressive, as is the ability to easily toggle between EcoPro, Comfort, and Sport modes. Honestly, the feel of the engine wasn't all that different than the e90. Power was awesome, and while some consider a 3-series with a 4-banger the automotive equivalent of hell freezing over...I found this driveline pretty damn impressive. Wow. As I was cruising along in the f30, I found myself calculating how bad I would get spanked if I traded in my less-than-year-old e90. I was so focused on the driveline nirvana that I invited my (very wise) wife to see if she could tell the difference between this and the six cylindar engine in the e90. I tossed her the keys and off she went....

After a short drive she tossed me the keys and said, "I wonder how the new Mercedes models drive". Other comments rolled out: "Nice interior...but the steering is as loose as a fat kid's belly...even in Sport mode", and "Auntie Robin's Lexus handles better". She reminded me that for her, it's all about the steering and that she wanted the used e46 even over other new cars because of the steering (which she emphasized IS a large part of how a car handles...not just the suspension). Honestly, I thought she was being too harsh on the f30.

All I can say is that the e90 is my daily driver...and as I drove off after returning the f30, I honestly found myself thinking that the service technicians must have disconnected the power steering -- because the feel of the e90 and the f30 are truly that different. Where the e90 is firmly planted offering direct communication through the steering wheel, the f30 feels distanced and filtered...

In my opinion, this is a fatal flaw. BMW MUST correct this; it is the downside of "Efficient Dynamics"
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      12-20-2012, 03:46 PM   #47
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Maybe they toned down the steering so all us enthusiast will buy the 4-series :P
Very good point.

may be 3-series with light steering wheel will capture Mercedes market
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      12-20-2012, 03:54 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by BradF View Post
I've had BMW's going back to a used e46. First BMW product came in the form of an R53 Mini, then the e46, an R53 Mini Cooper S, 2008 e90 328i with an manual and ZSP, and now we have a 2006 e53 (since 7,000 miles) and a 2011 e90 328i xdrive.

My wife finds BMWs rather boring (if not ugly) in the styling department and (flame suit) often prefers the styling of Mercedes cars. Although I seem to like BMW's for many reasons, my wife often reminds me why we've become BMW fanatics: the way they drive. The e46, became a "must have" after my wife's first test drive, and after having our first child she insisted on the X5 after exhaustively checking out every other option. For an SUV, the X5 had "amazing handling" (her words), so we stretched into a CPO which is still going strong with 67,000 miles (knock, knock). The fun factor of BMW softened her to my trading around from the e46 to a MINI to two e90's now...it really has been quite fun and I settled in to the latest: a 2011 328 xDrive with everything on it -- we picked it up in March of this year at a steep, steep discount. It now has just 8,000 miles. I hope to have this car for a while.

Right or wrong, we consider ourselves part of a somewhat important demographic for BMW: not particularly wealthy, but we do okay. Early 40's with younger kids who both had Volkswagens when we met thirteen years ago (a Golf and a Jetta). As our incomes grew, we began to experiment with other brands because we were bored with VW and settled with BMW.

I'm not a f30 "hater" because I have an e90...I'm not a hater at all. I test drove a 2012 when they first came out, yet settled on the e90 because of the xDrive and all of the other features I was able to get for the discount...what a deal! I liked the idea of the f30 (slightly larger, much better mileage) - but was fine with my decision to get e90 number 2.

This week, I took my e90 in for service (voluntary interim oil change and a few other minor things) and was given an f30 loaner. My impressions:

BMW did a lot of good things here. After over 100 miles on the loaner, I was very, very impressed with the N20 engine and the 8-speed tranny: What a great combination. Mileage was impressive, as is the ability to easily toggle between EcoPro, Comfort, and Sport modes. Honestly, the feel of the engine wasn't all that different than the e90. Power was awesome, and while some consider a 3-series with a 4-banger the automotive equivalent of hell freezing over...I found this driveline pretty damn impressive. Wow. As I was cruising along in the f30, I found myself calculating how bad I would get spanked if I traded in my less-than-year-old e90. I was so focused on the driveline nirvana that I invited my (very wise) wife to see if she could tell the difference between this and the six cylindar engine in the e90. I tossed her the keys and off she went....

After a short drive she tossed me the keys and said, "I wonder how the new Mercedes models drive". Other comments rolled out: "Nice interior...but the steering is as loose as a fat kid's belly...even in Sport mode", and "Auntie Robin's Lexus handles better". She reminded me that for her, it's all about the steering and that she wanted the used e46 even over other new cars because of the steering (which she emphasized IS a large part of how a car handles...not just the suspension). Honestly, I thought she was being too harsh on the f30.

All I can say is that the e90 is my daily driver...and as I drove off after returning the f30, I honestly found myself thinking that the service technicians must have disconnected the power steering -- because the feel of the e90 and the f30 are truly that different. Where the e90 is firmly planted offering direct communication through the steering wheel, the f30 feels distanced and filtered...

In my opinion, this is a fatal flaw. BMW MUST correct this; it is the downside of "Efficient Dynamics"
well said...long but very nice review :-)
I agree engine response and everything else is great.
Somehow the F30 which I got with red line on dash and big red borders on the floor mats, turned me off.
I think BMW made a smart move and thts the reason the 2-door coupe was not launched.
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      12-20-2012, 05:02 PM   #49
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Would be interesting to see what f30 owners have to say. Can somebody post a link to this thread on f30Post? (Im on my phone app right now)

Edit: just posted myself.
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      12-20-2012, 05:55 PM   #50
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Would be interesting to see what f30 owners have to say. Can somebody post a link to this thread on f30Post? (Im on my phone app right now)

Edit: just posted myself.
I think most of you guys are nuts

As a former E92 (M3, at that) owner, the F30 whoops the E9x in pretty much every category. Looks (the yellow angel eyes are gross, and the droopy LCI E90 front bumper is weird), performance (N20 kills N52) and tech (Top View cameras, HUD and new Nav on F31/F30h) make me realize I'll never long for the old features and circa-2005 looks of the E9x style. Features and looks are important, but so is driving capability. F30 N55 + Sport suspension/steering + Dynamic Handling beat any non-M E9x I every drove.
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      12-20-2012, 06:30 PM   #51
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You guys are crazy...i had an e92 335 and now f30 335 m sport..i track both as well....the only thing e92 had better is a lil better steering feel(and i do meet a lil) and a bit better exhaust sound. also looks are all opinions and in my opinion pre lci e 90 is 1 of the worst looking bmw on the road
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      12-20-2012, 06:49 PM   #52
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Would be interesting to see what f30 owners have to say. Can somebody post a link to this thread on f30Post? (Im on my phone app right now)

Edit: just posted myself.
OK, i'll bite.

As back ground, I am not a BMW fanboy. I typically like older models up until maybe the E39 M5, and then have been "meh" for most of what came after. I am also not a badge snab, usually just liking a car as a car and liking odd cars or underdogs(most of my tuning was done to a lightening blue Saab Viggen-that should say enough right there).

I had driven plenty of E9x cars. I thought a 2011 328x-drive would have been great for my wife.

It seemed about 10% smaller than we had liked, she said specifically she wished it had a small displacement turbo 4 like she had in her last Saab. I liked the engine note, something I loved about my S52(boosted).

My DD at the time was a very nice looking APR stage 2 VW CC 6mt sitting lowered on OEM 19's. Best looking car for the money, amazing interior and features for the price, and wow the fuel economy with high 13 second performance.

Warranty was running out, it's reliability was appalling.

Enter the F30.

I was on the fence when it came to looks.

Then I saw the M-Sport. Changed my whole opinion on that front.

Then there is Estoril Blue II. I have had a boner for this color since the late 90's. I was going to trade my Viggen for an E36 M3 in this color but wound up with the E36/7 instead. The M-Sport in EBII-pretty damn good looking.

Interior, I love the size. My friend yesterday commented that it felt small, especially compared to the CC. It's all what you are used too. E90 guys find it to be too big. This now feels just right to me. I really hope the 3 never gets bigger, but we shall see.

To me, the E90 controls and design was looking a small bit dated. I prefer the unshrouded I-drive in how it opens up the dash a bit, my wife said she wishes it was a bit more integrated like the E90. A happy medium would have been a bit better.

Quality is as high if not higher, though I dislike that the felt carpeting in the door panel is only on the inner side, leaving too much plastic exposed, the E90 was better here.

I have an N20 with 6mt. I love how this engine gets trashed. Once again, this is why I bought the car. It lacks any charisma when it comes to sound. This is true. I immediately linked up with Roque to use my car for development including a proper exhaust. Right off the bat on the dyno this N20 shows it makes so much more power than the N5x did. Honestly, I would think of the E9x 328 more of a woman's car, I modify my cars and where was I going to make real power with that engine. Here I was with a tunable FI motor from the factory and just put down 260lbs of tq to the wheels with a catback on a load bearing dyno. Factor in that beating on it for an entire tank and 12 dyno pulls I have yet to do worse than averaging 28.5mpg with highs approaching 40mpg. How is that not impressive? This engine has shown to provide mid 13's at 105mph with just a BMS stage 1 tune for $380. This car is going to net me 290-300whp with about $1000 in bolt ons. THe sound of the proper exhaust on the car went a long way. It does not make the same nice induction sound the straight 6 does, I know. But the sounds it does make are pleasing enough. If I want that classic sound, I step to the other side of the garage...headers, Supersprint, and 13psi of blower wine-yeah I am good.

Handling/steering...

I am not sold on the steering debate. The E90 to me was like a guy who shook your hand and went over board almost crushing your hand. The steering weight had an exaggerated sense to me. The steering in the F30 is a bit too light...press a button. Sport and Sport+ is far better, it's not E90 steering. Feedback, yeah it's a bit filtered compared to the E90, but it's not BAD.

Handling is quite good. There is a light on it's feet nature that I really appreciate. My car came with the SPORT suspension and proper staggered summer tires.

Many people are getting loaner F30's that are either base models or oddly optioned. This does not do much for the F30's case. I have had base non I drive E90's, that was not a fair way to judge them either.

Price...

The price is fine compared to the E90 when you compare option to option. In general I think the price is a bit high. You can easily spend $55k on a 328, that is nutso. My MSRP was $44k, I really think that is a bit much. My car had the BT fuck up so I used it to beat them down and take advantage to get almost $6k off my car. For that price, I am fairly smitten.

It's already being modded, I ordered Forgestar F14's in Gunmetal. It will get a slight drop. More goodies are in the works.

The F30 feels like a BMW, just as every iteration I have ever driven does dating back to the E36. Does it do some things better...yes. Somethings worse...yes. But a lot of it just comes down to preference or getting used to something being "different".

On the fence about the F30? That's normal as every new 3 series seems to do that. BUT. Drive the one closest to what you drive now. If you have an Sport suspension E90, only drive a Sport or M-Sport F30. If you have an N54/N55 E90, don't drive an N20 F30. Have summer tires, well don't go and drive an all season equipped car-BMW is trumping the MPG's of these cars and that's due to the super low rolling resistance tires that give horrible braking. The M-Sports have much grippier(higher dusting) pads and summer tires on staggered wheels as an option. Also make sure you select Sport or Sport+ on the drive. Then at least you are fairly judging if the F30 is worth owning.

There you go-there is my novel.
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      12-20-2012, 07:00 PM   #53
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Seems to me, in order to get a half way decent F30, one have to spend $50+ and get the works, M-Sport and sport line.
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      12-20-2012, 07:07 PM   #54
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everything looks great in F30 except the steering wheel.
Its too light and shakes between 40-50 mph. Thats a fail IMO.
Fixed in November+ 2012 builds. Fail no more.
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      12-20-2012, 07:08 PM   #55
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I think BMW failed on the front end of the f30, it looks out of place compared to the rest of the car. The vague steering feel was enough for me to pass on it.
Try a November+ build with DHP. I think your opinion may change, especially if you set car to Sport+.
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      12-20-2012, 07:10 PM   #56
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and im pretty sure they did not put in LED turn signals...
No LED's. Will come with LCI just like it did for E90.
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      12-20-2012, 07:17 PM   #57
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I stop by the dealer today to give my CA, and SA a bottle of wine for the holidays I had asked the SA what issues and complaints are the f30 having? He told me the the biggest complaint is the steering vibration, brakes dont' bite like the E90, and the car rides too soft.The SA sald the F30 is not selling as much as the E90, when the E90 first came out.
I think your SA may be wrong. Check BMW's sales figures.

Steering vibration fixed with November+ builds. MSport has Euro pads and the brakes bite very well. Extremely dusty, but they bite!
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      12-20-2012, 07:18 PM   #58
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Seems to me, in order to get a half way decent F30, one have to spend $50+ and get the works, M-Sport and sport line.
I got ripped. My 335i MSport cost more than $50. Quite a bit more.
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      12-20-2012, 07:19 PM   #59
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Seems to me, in order to get a half way decent F30, one have to spend $50+ and get the works, M-Sport and sport line.
Like I said, my car was $43,xxx, that was M-Sport, metallic paint, heated seats and Sunroof.

No longer optional are the folding rear seats, dual power front seats, dual zone auto climate control, Homelink, and I-drive.

Throw in the Xenons to my car and it was still under $45k.

Not cheap, but $50k+ is not necessary.
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      12-20-2012, 08:04 PM   #60
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No LED's. Will come with LCI just like it did for E90.
WTF? Why not do it just do start with? I don't get it. Look at the 5 series, im pretty sure that has LED's
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      12-20-2012, 08:05 PM   #61
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its ok..
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      12-20-2012, 08:11 PM   #62
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I want one, but I'm waiting for the f80 actually.
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      12-20-2012, 08:46 PM   #63
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I'm not quite sure how you guys can judge the F30s just on one or two drives with it.

To be honest, all the cons i see on this thread is exactly the same thing people were saying when the E90's came out...
It looks ulgy, "Chris Bangle did a horrible job designing it" , feels very unsporty, throttle response sucks compared to the E46, so on and so on. Same thing thats going on now with the F30's

I came from an 04 E46 to 07 E90 to 10 E90 and now a 2013 F30 and yes every generations seems less sporty than the last. I'm not talking about engine power and torque figures, im talking about the sport "feel". When coming from the E46 to the E90 the car felt dull on the roads, suspension was too soft and you couldnt feel the response from the steering as well as before.
Same goes for when i went from my E90 to the F30, the steering is extremely unresponsive suspension is way too soft when driving around local roads and such

one thing you guys are overlooking is how it performs on a track...if you're going to buy a BMW you know you're not going to use it to its full potential unless you track it. If you mode your cars, throw tunes and such into but dont let it loose whats the point?

I've tracked all 3 generations and i can tell you they always perform better than the last.
Once you get into sport mode and drive around on a course you will find that the F30 is MUCH MUUCH better than the E90. The steering feels as good as the E90 the suspension stiffens up and the sport feeling is back like how it should be.

One thing you guys have to consider is not everyone who buys a BMW will be driving it like a maniac or a speed demon. People get old and soon the heavy steering wheel and stiff suspension becomes hard to stand, which is why they introduced sport modes and electronically adujusting dampeners. Instead of losing out on that market they made the F30, where the steering and suspension is so light and soft even the elderly can drive them.
some of you may think "oh i dont want to be associated with a brand where grandmas drive their cars" grow up. business is business, maximum profit is what every company looks for and to do that you'll need to sacrifice something.

If you want to compare the two generations compare them where they're made to have a difference. Honestly, if youre going to compare the two on the roads you might as well compare a camry to the e90...

just my 2cs
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      12-20-2012, 08:55 PM   #64
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The f30 has questionable QC for sure...
If I could get the f30 Interior in an e body, life would be good...
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      12-20-2012, 09:02 PM   #65
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WTF? Why not do it just do start with? I don't get it. Look at the 5 series, im pretty sure that has LED's
Nope. 5 series does not have LED turn signals. Will come in MY14 with LCI. Welcome to BMW.
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      12-20-2012, 09:02 PM   #66
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The f30 has questionable QC for sure...
If I could get the f30 Interior in an e body, life would be good...
And your stats came from where? Your personal experience?

Great. I can introduce you to a couple E90 owners that swear they'll never buy another BMW due to quality and reliability problems. My 2010 E90 was nearly trouble free.
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