[maswastage]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

35mpg average, a lot more standard features, 270'ish HP at the crank, 5.4 to 60/100 mph trap at 14.0.

It's funny you should bring up those numbers, since they're exactly what keep me from being interested in the F30.

There was a lot of hype a few months before the F30 launched about how it was going to be faster and more efficient than the old E90 diesel, but when the real world numbers finally rolled in it turned out it was actually slower and less efficient. And similarly equipped, it cost about the same as the diesel did too. So yeah, there's nothing in the F30 that interests me personally, not when my 3 year old car with 7 year old technology outperforms it in every way. Maybe when an F30 diesel hits US shores I'll reconsider.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by MonsterM

WAAAYYYY more unreliable. Owned and experienced plenty FI vehicles and NA vehicles. I do not want to own another turbo vehicle for a long time, specially a German made one. A good 6 cylinder will deliver more power while still achieving very good fuel economy and will be a lot more reliable and durable than a turbo four. Honda and Toyota make V6's in the mainstream vehicles (Accord and Camry) that are faster than the F30 328i, cost less to produce, maintain and will likely outlast any German turbo four (non-diesel) currently on the market.

Show me the Japanese V-6's that are faster than the N20 328? (I would say only the G37 and IS350 count, both of which align with the 335(though the G25 was just dropped).

The Japanese V-6 offerings basically can about equal the N20 in terms of performance, but not so much beat it. That's the point, V-6 performance and 4 cylinder economy.

Funny enough, the C350 Benz barely lines up with the N20, it's C250 is comical.

Reliability, well that's a bit complicated. I can point to examples of V-6's that have been less reliable than a small size turbo and vice versa. I would not own any european modern car without a warranty, so that point is mute.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by maswastage

It's funny you should bring up those numbers, since they're exactly what keep me from being interested in the F30.

There was a lot of hype a few months before the F30 launched about how it was going to be faster and more efficient than the old E90 diesel, but when the real world numbers finally rolled in it turned out it was actually slower and less efficient. And similarly equipped, it cost about the same as the diesel did too. So yeah, there's nothing in the F30 that interests me personally, not when my 3 year old car with 7 year old technology outperforms it in every way. Maybe when an F30 diesel hits US shores I'll reconsider.

I would buy a diesel BMW if they offered it with a manual.

My worst tank ever in this car(12 dyno pulls and romping on it the rest of the tank) was 28.5.

My usual average is 30-32. When I am getting to work and put it in COMFORT I average 39mpg with a bit of stop and go.

I don't know, I think that is impressive.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

If you read all of mine, you would see my MSRP was under $44k, I think it was $43,450 to be exact. MID $40's is 45k+.

I also stated that I do not think that is great value, I got mine for $38k and I feel like at THAT amount of money the performance/value/money equation is within reason.

I see there are tons of options for the F30. They do not appeal to me.

I could have a fully loaded no line with $8k in options, would that make it a better car-just so it could be loaded with TECH items?

But this is about the E90 vs F30. When you factor in MSRP, features now standard, the price of the F30 has not inflated much at all compared to the E90. On the other forum someone did the homework of MSRPs dating back to the E46 adjusted for inflation and the F30 is actually not a jump at all(or less than $1000 but including more standard equipment).

You can interpret mid $40K anyway to you want, but most people consider $43,450 is in the mid $40K.
$38K is a good price for the options you got, cannot compare an E90 apple to apple because some options are not available on the E90, but a strip down E90 328i would probably have cost about mid $30K with incentives and discounts.
Forget the fully loaded F30 no line with $8k in options, I would go for the fully loaded sport line with $8k in options.
When we compare the new E90 vs the new F30 back in April, both cars were in the showroom. When we equipped it similarly and consider all incentives for both cars, the E90 was about $8000 cheaper.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by The X Men

You can interpret mid $40K anyway to you want, but most people consider $43,450 is in the mid $40K.
$38K is a good price for the options you got, cannot compare an E90 apple to apple because some options are not available on the E90, but a strip down E90 328i would probably have cost about mid $30K with incentives and discounts.
Forget the fully loaded F30 no line with $8k in options, I would go for the fully loaded sport line with $8k in options.
When we compare the new E90 vs the new F30 back in April, both cars were in the showroom. When we equipped it similarly and consider all incentives for both cars, the E90 was about $8000 cheaper.

No incentives, just go by MSRP. I personally find a $50k+ 3 series a turn off.

Mid anything is not an interpretation, its grade school math. 1-10...1-4=low-6-10=high, 5=MID $43,xxx gets ROUNDED to $40k before it gets rounded to $50k :P

One of the things that makes E90 vs F30 prices unfair was the E90 was at the end of it's life and they through the value package at it.

I also find the early E90's for $33k a turn off. Manual seats, no folding rear seat, early cars with 16" wheels, PASS.

The real price difference between the two is nowhere near $8000. '12 was $35k, '13 is $36k and the standard feature list is FAR longer on the F30. Just the fact that I have a keyless start standard and I-drive and driving modes standard, those are thing kind of things that would have added $1000's to an E90. So unless the E90 started at $28k MSRP I am not seeing an $8k price difference.

Like I said, someone did an exact compare, equipment, price and year and found even though the F30 still had a couple things the E90 did not, the price increase was about $1000-1500 TOPS.

You would get a fully loaded Sport? Well that's $50k+ and within $1000-1200 of the M-Sport, the small upgrades are worth it in the M-Sport. Out of a $50k purchase, M-Sport is splitting hairs.

Granted, I was looking at E90's a year ago because the deals were attractive. But that doesnt diminish the F30. At the end of the F30 lifecycle deals will be there as well. This is the nature of car buying.

[maswastage]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I would buy a diesel BMW if they offered it with a manual.

My worst tank ever in this car(12 dyno pulls and romping on it the rest of the tank) was 28.5.

My usual average is 30-32. When I am getting to work and put it in COMFORT I average 39mpg with a bit of stop and go.

I don't know, I think that is impressive.

I may have come off a bit harsh on the F30. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that it's not impressive in general. That kind of performance-to-fuel efficiency is very impressive indeed. It's just that the D has at least the same or even better performance and fuel efficiency, and it's been around for several years already. So for me personally, coming from the D, there's no reason to think about switching to the F30.

Out of curiosity, do you know your trip computer average speed over the course of those 30-32 mpg tanks? And is that mpg from the trip computer or hand calculated?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by maswastage

I may have come off a bit harsh on the F30. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that it's not impressive in general. That kind of performance-to-fuel efficiency is very impressive indeed. It's just that the D has at least the same or even better performance and fuel efficiency, and it's been around for several years already. So for me personally, coming from the D, there's no reason to think about switching to the F30.

Out of curiosity, do you know your trip computer average speed over the course of those 30-32 mpg tanks? And is that mpg from the trip computer or hand calculated?

I love the concept of the D's too. But they don't offer them with manuals so they are not on my radar.

When I first got the car I compared the trip computer to my actual calculations and they were quite close.

My 30-32 averages typically show 40-45mph as the average speed.

[1lyfe]

Originally Posted by MonsterM

WAAAYYYY more unreliable. Owned and experienced plenty FI vehicles and NA vehicles. I do not want to own another turbo vehicle for a long time, specially a German made one. A good 6 cylinder will deliver more power while still achieving very good fuel economy and will be a lot more reliable and durable than a turbo four. Honda and Toyota make V6's in the mainstream vehicles (Accord and Camry) that are faster than the F30 328i, cost less to produce, maintain and will likely outlast any German turbo four (non-diesel) currently on the market.

in a straight line probably...

[maswastage]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I love the concept of the D's too. But they don't offer them with manuals so they are not on my radar.

When I first got the car I compared the trip computer to my actual calculations and they were quite close.

My 30-32 averages typically show 40-45mph as the average speed.

That's understandable. I like a good manual transmission too (which is why I'd be very excited at the prospect of a 320d with a stickshift), but I'm still plenty satisfied with the auto in the D. Different strokes, and all that.

Do you use the start-stop function or do you turn it off? Kind of going on a tangent here, but I'm wondering if having the start-stop enabled inflates the average speed the computer reports. That is to say, you could be in stop-n-go traffic, and the computer might show an average speed of 30 or 35 because that's the speed you're going when the car is moving and the engine's on. And in reality, your true average speed might be slower, if the computer isn't accounting for the time that the car spends stopped with the engine off.

[MonsterM]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Show me the Japanese V-6's that are faster than the N20 328? (I would say only the G37 and IS350 count, both of which align with the 335(though the G25 was just dropped).

The Japanese V-6 offerings basically can about equal the N20 in terms of performance, but not so much beat it. That's the point, V-6 performance and 4 cylinder economy.

Funny enough, the C350 Benz barely lines up with the N20, it's C250 is comical.

Reliability, well that's a bit complicated. I can point to examples of V-6's that have been less reliable than a small size turbo and vice versa. I would not own any european modern car without a warranty, so that point is mute.

Sure,

2012 BMW 328i 8 speed auto

0-60 5.6
0-100 14.7
1/4 mile 14.2 @ 98 mph

FUEL ECONOMY*:
EPA city/highway driving: 24/36 mpg
C/D observed: 21 mpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review

2012 Toyota Camry V6 Auto

0-60 5.8
0-100 14.1
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 101 mph

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 21/30 mpg
C/D observed: 25 mpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

2013 Honda Accord V6 auto

0-60 5.6
0-100 13.9
1/4 mile 14.1 @ 101 mph

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 21/34 mpg
C/D observed: 23 mpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...-6-test-review

What is so special about the N20 vs the V6's in terms of straight line acceleration and fuel economy? After 0-60 (FWD) the Camry and Accord have an edge on the 328i, look at trap speed for all three and here is the kicker, look at the observed fuel economy.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by 1lyfe

in a straight line probably...

Not even.

The V-6 Accords and Camry's are quick mind you(within a tenth or two in most measurements), but NOT faster than reported times for the 328.

It should not be news.

F30 328 is about 3450lbs, 240whp/240tq(270ish crank).

Accord/Camry is 270'ish hp at the crank and also 3400-3500lbs. So why wouldn't the straightline numbers be close?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by MonsterM

Sure,

2012 BMW 328i 8 speed auto

0-60 5.6
0-100 14.7
1/4 mile 14.2 @ 98 mph

FUEL ECONOMY*:
EPA city/highway driving: 24/36 mpg
C/D observed: 21 mpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review

2012 Toyota Camry V6 Auto

0-60 5.8
0-100 14.1
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 101 mph

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 21/30 mpg
C/D observed: 25 mpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

2013 Honda Accord V6 auto

0-60 5.6
0-100 13.9
1/4 mile 14.1 @ 101 mph

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 21/34 mpg
C/D observed: 23 mpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...-6-test-review

What is so special about the N20 vs the V6's in terms of straight line acceleration and fuel economy? After 0-60 (FWD) the Camry and Accord have an edge on the 328i, look at trap speed for all three and here is the kicker, look at the observed fuel economy.

Yay, magazine racing!

In your examples, the F30 is faster than the Camry in 0-60 and 1/4, but the Camry traps higher. So that is not a win.

The Accord matches the 0-60, but is quicker in the 1/4 and trap.

The amount faster or not when compared to the MPG advantage of the N20 F30 still holds true. Performance is within a fraction of a percent yet MPG is 10-20% better in the N20. Once again, V-6 performance with 4 cylinder economy. That's the point!

But 5.6 to 60 for the F30 and 14.2 is also the slowest numbers I have seen for an F30.

I can find 5.4 to go and faster than a 14.2. I am just now seeing the Accord and Camry as being FASTER.

Here you go, a nice SILLY 13.9 at 99.5mpg for the F30, magazine racing is fun like that. I can dig up more silly examples of 5.4 to 60 as well.

Outside of magazines, here are BMS' testing numbers.


So this thread about E90 vs F30 is now all about Accords and Camrys being faster in a straight line. Yet the F30 is quite a bit faster than the E90 in a straight line. So your Accords and Camrys being faster than the F30, what are you saying about the E90 again?

[MonsterM]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Yay, magazine racing!

In your examples, the F30 is faster than the Camry in 0-60 and 1/4, but the Camry traps higher. So that is not a win.

The Accord matches the 0-60, but is quicker in the 1/4 and trap.

But 5.6 to 60 for the F30 and 14.2 is also the slowest numbers I have seen for an F30.

I can find 5.4 to go and faster than a 14.2. I am just now seeing the Accord and Camry as being FASTER.

Here you go, a nice SILLY 13.9 at 99.5mpg for the F30, magazine racing is fun like that. I can dig up more silly examples of 5.4 to 60 as well.

Outside of magazines, here are BMS' testing numbers.


So this thread about E90 vs F30 is now all about Accords and Camrys being faster in a straight line. Yet the F30 is quite a bit faster than the E90 in a straight line. So your Accords and Camrys being faster than the F30, what are you saying about the E90 again?

You said to show you a Japanese V6 that is faster and I did.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by MonsterM

You said to show you a Japanese V6 that is faster and I did.

You showed me the Accord in one magazine has the same 0-60 as your source for the F30, it was faster in the 1/4 and trap.

I showed sources that show the opposite.

Don't see where that leaves us with the V-6's being FASTER than the N20, and again offering similar efficiency.

The Jap V-6's that are truly faster are the IS350 and G37, both which are 13.5-13.8 at more like 102mph.

[SkyWalker_J]

I havent driven an F30 (E92 owner) and from the sounds of it I'll probably just hold on to my E92 until something better comes along.

What people are saying about new BMWs is that they lack active feedback in the steering and just feels disconnected.

We'll see what they do with the new 4 but its starting to sound like if you want a legitimate sports sedan out of BMW you'll need to buy something with an M badge.

[NoTempoLimitN54]

Originally Posted by Cgm9999

The steering is a joke and as anybody who has been smitten by a BMW before can attest, steering feel is a lot of what makes a BMW a BMW. It's kind of like the disastrous strategy Coca Cola had when they introduced "New Coke" in the 1980s. Not only did they reinvent the wheel for the worse, but they threw out the old wheel so that you couldn't even enjoy normal Coke even if you wanted to. Note to BMW: Bring back the hydraulic steering as an option or supply it as standard on the Sportline and M-Sport trims. Please. Like, right now...

And you know why Coca-Cola made that mistake? Because they were doing 'focus group testing' and the testers took one sip of original Coke and one sip of New Coke (without knowing which is which) and prefered New Coke. The company made it's decision based on that.

Then when people drank an entire can they preferred old (Classic) Coke. Some people think Coca-Cola did it for publicity. They're not that clever. It was actually one of the biggest and most costly product blunders ever made by a major American corporation.

BMW -used- to be about designing a car that would reveal itself to you as superior after you drove it for a significant amount of time. Especially for American drivers used to big heavy floaty boat-cars.

I've got a base level F30 328i as a loaner today. No sport package . I should hopefully be back in my E92 335i 6MT tonight. A good A-B-A test.

So far I can report initial impressions:

F30 is the same exact size as my E39
Steering is WAY too light and dead of feel
Non-sport suspension is comfortable on bad roads but way soft and lets the car "float" which I think is so un-BMW-like
N20 engine has decent power and good fuel economy but feels slow compared to N54 and sounds like a Diesel when idling
ZF 8spd Auto is the best auto I have ever driven. I like the stick-style shifter. But I still find myself letting it be in "auto" mode and rarely using the manual shift, just like in my girlfriends VW Jetta 2.0T DSG (neither car has shift paddles).

What I don't like is that it's too clever. I had a frustrating minute trying to get it in gear before I realized that if the door is just slightly ajar, it won't go into gear. -seriously?- You engineers mean to tell me that there is no reason ever that one might want to creep the car forward with the door open?

While this was happening (I'm trying to get into my storage unit) there is a strange guy coming up behind me. He wasn't a threat, but what if he was? I can't get my damn car in gear to get the hell away?

What if I'm a woman or other person who doesn't think so logically when a potential threat is approaching. Because the door is not perfectly shut the car won't move forward??? What if a freaking dump truck with bad brakes is coming up behind the car?

I don't want my car dumbed down to protect the stupid from themselves.


Thank the car god I have a manual E92!

[MonsterM]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

You showed me the Accord in one magazine has the same 0-60 as your source for the F30, it was faster in the 1/4 and trap.

I showed sources that show the opposite.

Don't see where that leaves us with the V-6's being FASTER than the N20, and again offering similar efficiency.

The Jap V-6's that are truly faster are the IS350 and G37, both which are 13.5-13.8 at more like 102mph.

Both the Camry and Accord were faster after 0-60 (FWD vs RWD) and delivered better fuel economy in the particular tests I posted. Here is a review of a manual V6 Accord and it is truly faster than any F30 328 test I have seen to date:

Accord V6 Coupe manual
0-60 5.6
0-100 13.4
1/4 mile 14.0 @ 103 mph

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...al-test-review

F30 328i manual

0-60 5.6
0-100 14.3
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100 mph

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

F30 335i manual

0-60 5.3
0-100 13.0
1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 mph

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by NoTempoLimitN54

And you know why Coca-Cola made that mistake? Because they were doing 'focus group testing' and the testers took one sip of original Coke and one sip of New Coke (without knowing which is which) and prefered New Coke. The company made it's decision based on that.

Then when people drank an entire can they preferred old (Classic) Coke. Some people think Coca-Cola did it for publicity. They're not that clever. It was actually one of the biggest and most costly product blunders ever made by a major American corporation.

BMW -used- to be about designing a car that would reveal itself to you as superior after you drove it for a significant amount of time. Especially for American drivers used to big heavy floaty boat-cars.

I've got a base level F30 328i as a loaner today. No sport package . I should hopefully be back in my E92 335i 6MT tonight. A good A-B-A test.

So far I can report initial impressions:

F30 is the same exact size as my E39
Steering is WAY too light and dead of feel
Non-sport suspension is comfortable on bad roads but way soft and lets the car "float" which I think is so un-BMW-like
N20 engine has decent power and good fuel economy but feels slow compared to N54 and sounds like a Diesel when idling
ZF 8spd Auto is the best auto I have ever driven. I like the stick-style shifter, and the fact it shifts into neutral for you when stopped at lights (I used to do that manually when driving auto)

What I don't like is that it's too clever. I had a frustrating minute trying to get it in gear before I realized that if the door is just slightly ajar, it won't go into gear. -seriously?- You engineers mean to tell me that there is no reason ever that one might want to creep the car forward with the door open?

While this was happening (I'm trying to get into my storage unit) there is a strange guy coming up behind me. He wasn't a threat, but what if he was? I can't get my damn car in gear to get the hell away?

What if I'm a woman or other person who doesn't think so logically when a potential threat is approaching. Because the door is not perfectly shut the car won't move forward??? What if a freaking dump truck with bad brakes is coming up behind the car?

I don't want my car dumbed down to protect the stupid from themselves.


Thank the car god I have a manual E92!

I bolded some things you said. Now please, see again some things I said in post #52:

Many people are getting loaner F30's that are either base models or oddly optioned. This does not do much for the F30's case. I have had base non I drive E90's, that was not a fair way to judge them either.

On the fence about the F30? That's normal as every new 3 series seems to do that. BUT. Drive the one closest to what you drive now. If you have an Sport suspension E90, only drive a Sport or M-Sport F30. If you have an N54/N55 E90, don't drive an N20 F30. Have summer tires, well don't go and drive an all season equipped car-BMW is trumping the MPG's of these cars and that's due to the super low rolling resistance tires that give horrible braking. The M-Sports have much grippier(higher dusting) pads and summer tires on staggered wheels as an option. Also make sure you select Sport or Sport+ on the drive. Then at least you are fairly judging if the F30 is worth owning.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

How is that any different than the purchase of your 325?

For decades now, there has not been much value proposition when comparing a loaded Accord or FILL IN CAR here against a base 3 series.

This is not a new debate just because of the F30. I find better value for money now actually. Slightly bigger car with a usable back seat, 35mpg average, a lot more standard features, 270'ish HP at the crank, 5.4 to 60/100 mph trap at 14.0. BEFORE, a V-6 Accord would be bigger, better optioned, better MPG and be faster than the 328. So why throw the Accord debate at the F30 NOW without lobbying the same concerns dating back to the start of the 3.

The difference is for $45k you can get the accord and a civic for your sister.
For $32k in 2005, you could only get the accord V6 that was NOT as fast as the 325 and the handling/steering of the 325 was BMW-like.

A small, but noticeable difference...

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by MonsterM

Both the Camry and Accord were faster after 0-60 (FWD vs RWD) and delivered better fuel economy in the particular tests I posted. Here is a review of a manual V6 Accord and it is truly faster than any F30 328 test I have seen to date:

Accord V6 Coupe manual
0-60 5.6
0-100 13.4
1/4 mile 14.0 @ 103 mph

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...al-test-review

F30 328i manual

0-60 5.6
0-100 14.3
1/4 mile 14.3 @ 100 mph

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

F30 335i manual

0-60 5.3
0-100 13.0
1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 mph

I was not even referencing the Accord Coupe as there has been no testing done on the F32 yet. The Accord Coupe has different tuning and in fact suffers a MPG knock compared to the Accord sedan, so we are muddying the waters even more now.

I am also only going by EPA data where the F30 is 10% better than the V-6 examples you gave.

We are still getting away from the E90 and F30 scenario, the more we are talking about new V-6 japanese cars being faster, the more it seems we are glazing over that the case is even more severe when the E90 is brought back into this.

Granted, I have yet to see N55 F30's be faster than E90 N55/N54 cars, that is a legitimate talking point.

But the fact is 328 to 328, the F30 does a lot right in terms of power/performance/economy. I have spent weeks dealing with Rogue Engineering who said in the past they would not develop parts for the base 3 series, but the N20 F30 is different as they see lots of tuning potential. Other tuners are looking at it the same way.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by 335BBS

Small turbos are the way of the future. WAY faster than a 325 ....WAAAYYYY more torque.

I am not sure why the mainstreem Japanese don't go that way, however, the Accord V6 is more (or similar) economical and faster than this small Turbo. Oh, and cheaper and more reliable, too...

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by dr335is

The difference is for $45k you can get the accord and a civic for your sister.
For $32k in 2005, you could only get the accord V6 that was NOT as fast as the 325 and the handling/steering of the 325 was BMW-like.

A small, but noticeable difference...

A loaded V-6 Accord is $31-34k depending on things like NAV. A BASE Civic is about $16k. The base F30 is $36k.

Again, not seeing your math add up.