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      12-21-2012, 02:10 PM   #111
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A loaded V-6 Accord is $31-34k depending on things like NAV. A BASE Civic is about $16k. The base F30 is $36k.

Again, not seeing your math add up.
You stated that you paid $45 for your car, which is NOT loaded.
You also stated that the V6 Accord is about $33k
I guarantee you can get the base Civic for less than $16k

And BTW, don't take things/math too seriously...

PS: the base F30 is a complete junk!
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      12-21-2012, 02:12 PM   #112
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I was not even referencing the Accord Coupe as there is there is been no testing done on the F32 yet.

I am also only going by EPA data where the F30 is 10% better than the V-6 examples you gave.

We are still getting away from the E90 and F30 scenario, the more we are talking about new V-6 japanese cars being faster, the more it seems we are glazing over that the case is even more severe when the E90 is brought back into this.

Granted, I have yet to see N55 F30's be faster than E90 N55/N54 cars, that is a legitimate talking point.

But the fact is 328 to 328, the F30 does a lot right in terms of power/performance/economy. I have spent weeks dealing with Rogue Engineering who said in the past they would not develop parts for the base 3 series, but the N20 F30 is different as they see lots of tuning potential. Other tuners are looking at it the same way.
I was trying to make a point that current two Japanese V6's I posted perform as good if not better than the turbo fours while returning similar fuel economy and the kicker is they are not even DI. In reference to tuning, I am all for tuning and the potential that the FI offers, however I do have some long term ownership concerns with a tuned 2.0T that utilizes 19 PSI max boost out of the box.
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      12-21-2012, 02:13 PM   #113
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I am not sure why the mainstreem Japanese don't go that way, however, the Accord V6 is more (or similar) economical and faster than this small Turbo. Oh, and cheaper and more reliable, too...
That is the point that I was trying to make.
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      12-21-2012, 02:19 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by dr335is View Post
You stated that you paid $45 for your car, which is NOT loaded.
You also stated that the V6 Accord is about $33k
I guarantee you can get the base Civic for less than $16k

And BTW, don't take things/math too seriously...

PS: the base F30 is a complete junk!




Really?! I surely don't think so. I also prefer the E46 to the E90 but that doesn't make the E90 junk. The F30 is a lot more rigid chassis then the E90 and with few suspension tweaks I am sure it could hold more than it's own.
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      12-21-2012, 02:29 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by dr335is View Post
You stated that you paid $45 for your car, which is NOT loaded.
You also stated that the V6 Accord is about $33k
I guarantee you can get the base Civic for less than $16k

And BTW, don't take things/math too seriously...

PS: the base F30 is a complete junk!
I asked if you were reading because I said the MSRP on my car was $43,350, and if you wanted Xenons you were still under $45k. I also said I did not pay that, I paid $38k.

I still hold that loaded V-6 Accord's sticker for $31-34k, if I am wrong, show me loaded Accord for a decent amount less.

Again, Civics, show me the Civic for under $16k(and no not $15,895 lol)
edit: starts at $18k now!!!
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan/

I am not taking things too seriously at all. This debate has now been going around for awhile and all my counters are valid with 98% accuracy to back it up.

If I am off by a tenth or $100 bucks, I am still doing fine for myself lol.

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I was trying to make a point that current two Japanese V6's I posted perform as good if not better than the turbo fours while returning similar fuel economy and the kicker is they are not even DI. In reference to tuning, I am all for tuning and the potential that the FI offers, however I do have some long term ownership concerns with a tuned 2.0T that utilizes 19 PSI max boost out of the box.
I agree they perform as good. I only took up with the posting of them being FASTER and just as economical. Fact is, they are within a stones throw in terms of performance and I can post faster F30's by a tenth as you find V-6's faster by a tenth. That is not FASTER, that's getting a bit nutty. Like I said, faster is the G37 and IS350. Then with EPA ratings, the N20 still holds a 10% plus advantage. In magazine testing you have what, the V-6 Coupe you just showed averaging 18?!?, I had a half day dyno session and my car still averaged 28, I think in magazine testers hands 23mpg might be the basement.

I have had boosted 4's from Saabs to VW's as one of my cars for 15 years now. They have been reliable(except for the VW lol) when maintained well. Don't think the N20 makes 19psi, it makes that as a peak, it's variable. Magazines had my Viggen 20psi, that was peak and dependent on things like elevation. In fact at sea level it would not peak above 13psi. But in the press, boost of "upto" 20psi sounded cool. When I tuned it to peak at 18psi, it was a whole other animal.
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      12-21-2012, 02:34 PM   #116
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]Many people are getting loaner F30's that are either base models or oddly optioned. This does not do much for the F30's case. I have had base non I drive E90's, that was not a fair way to judge them either.
No doubt - I mentioned it was "base". Doesn't even have heated seats or projector headlights. No Sat Nav either, not that I care.

I drove a Sport Package F30 335i at the "olympic event" they had in April. Much different experience. Felt about as fast as my E92. Exhaust sound was way cool. Too many options on that car though - I don't care for a HUD with big digital numbers telling the cop behind/next to me how fast I -know- I'm going, or a steering wheel that shakes to let me know I'm slightly off center in my lane. But I see how some people would like that.

At the same event I drove a non-sport 328i and I had the same impression of the suspension. The sport package is de rigeur for any enthusiast driver.

If I needed the space I'd take an F30 over an F10 any day. The F10 is full-on 7 series size. But for now quite happy with my cozy E92.
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      12-21-2012, 03:41 PM   #117
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Then at least you are fairly judging if the F30 is worth owning.
I think the F30 is very much worth owning, but the steering feel (or lack thereof) is a dramatic departure for BMW. After my E46, I thought the E90 was fugly but at least it drove like a BMW -- so I ended up with one (actually two).

I just cant say the same about the F30. I love the styling, the interior is MUCH better (yes, even the screen) and the N20/8-speed drivetrain is sublime; in many ways I do think of the F30 as an E90 with some of the kinks worked out (gas mileage on an E90 is abysmal)....but I don't think I can convince myself that it's worth owning because the "Ultimate Driving Machine" experience has been very watered down (yes - the F30 I drove was loaded, so I tried everything I could to like the way it handled).

My question: Porsche just made the same transition to electric steering to gain MPG and the automotive press is singing praises about how the feeling is still there...if Porsche can do it, why can't BMW?
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      12-21-2012, 04:06 PM   #118
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I think the F30 is very much worth owning, but the steering feel (or lack thereof) is a dramatic departure for BMW. After my E46, I thought the E90 was fugly but at least it drove like a BMW -- so I ended up with one (actually two).

I just cant say the same about the F30. I love the styling, the interior is MUCH better (yes, even the screen) and the N20/8-speed drivetrain is sublime; in many ways I do think of the F30 as an E90 with some of the kinks worked out (gas mileage on an E90 is abysmal)....but I don't think I can convince myself that it's worth owning because the "Ultimate Driving Machine" experience has been very watered down (yes - the F30 I drove was loaded, so I tried everything I could to like the way it handled).

My question: Porsche just made the same transition to electric steering to gain MPG and the automotive press is singing praises about how the feeling is still there...if Porsche can do it, why can't BMW?
There are Porsche purists who wax on that the last great 911 was the air-cooled 993 and hated everything since.

Porsche sells more specific cars to a much smaller audience. For BMW, The steering change will alienate 15% of existing buyers but at the same time might bring in 20% of people who were on the fence.

I like the steering in my M-Sport and was never impressed with the E90 steering.
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      12-21-2012, 04:26 PM   #119
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No incentives, just go by MSRP. I personally find a $50k+ 3 series a turn off.

Mid anything is not an interpretation, its grade school math. 1-10...1-4=low-6-10=high, 5=MID $43,xxx gets ROUNDED to $40k before it gets rounded to $50k :P

One of the things that makes E90 vs F30 prices unfair was the E90 was at the end of it's life and they through the value package at it.

I also find the early E90's for $33k a turn off. Manual seats, no folding rear seat, early cars with 16" wheels, PASS.

The real price difference between the two is nowhere near $8000. '12 was $35k, '13 is $36k and the standard feature list is FAR longer on the F30. Just the fact that I have a keyless start standard and I-drive and driving modes standard, those are thing kind of things that would have added $1000's to an E90. So unless the E90 started at $28k MSRP I am not seeing an $8k price difference.

Like I said, someone did an exact compare, equipment, price and year and found even though the F30 still had a couple things the E90 did not, the price increase was about $1000-1500 TOPS.

You would get a fully loaded Sport? Well that's $50k+ and within $1000-1200 of the M-Sport, the small upgrades are worth it in the M-Sport. Out of a $50k purchase, M-Sport is splitting hairs.

Granted, I was looking at E90's a year ago because the deals were attractive. But that doesnt diminish the F30. At the end of the F30 lifecycle deals will be there as well. This is the nature of car buying.
I am trying to compare real world pricing, not suggest price which means nothing. Do you find a loaded 3 series a turn off or just the price of one a turn off?
If some some say a house is price at mid $500K, does it have to cost exactly $550000? If you want to round it off, anything above $43333 is rounded off to mid $40K.
I do not think its unfair to compare a end of cycle E90 to a brand new F30. If you want the lastest and the greatest, you have to paid dearly and paid dearly the F30 owners did. BMW threw in a bit more than just the value package for the 2011 E90.
Like I said earlier, I option out the E90 and the F30 as close as I can, one option I could not compare was the back up camera since its not offer in the E90. The rear view camera is a $400 option on the F30, so the E90 is still $7600 ahead. Let me ask you this, what is the point of a keyless start if you need to take out your keys to unlock the doors, I can not believe you are actually happy with that.
Dont get me wrong, we are still keeping an eye on the F30. Once BMW fix the steering, the engine note and bring the price back down to earth we will test drive it again. I figure by the next LCI, BMW will have everything right on the F30.
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      12-21-2012, 05:18 PM   #120
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      12-21-2012, 06:00 PM   #121
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I am trying to compare real world pricing, not suggest price which means nothing. Do you find a loaded 3 series a turn off or just the price of one a turn off?
If some some say a house is price at mid $500K, does it have to cost exactly $550000? If you want to round it off, anything above $43333 is rounded off to mid $40K.
I do not think its unfair to compare a end of cycle E90 to a brand new F30. If you want the lastest and the greatest, you have to paid dearly and paid dearly the F30 owners did. BMW threw in a bit more than just the value package for the 2011 E90.
Like I said earlier, I option out the E90 and the F30 as close as I can, one option I could not compare was the back up camera since its not offer in the E90. The rear view camera is a $400 option on the F30, so the E90 is still $7600 ahead. Let me ask you this, what is the point of a keyless start if you need to take out your keys to unlock the doors, I can not believe you are actually happy with that.
Dont get me wrong, we are still keeping an eye on the F30. Once BMW fix the steering, the engine note and bring the price back down to earth we will test drive it again. I figure by the next LCI, BMW will have everything right on the F30.
There are too many factors with car prices to compare car to car if you stray from MSRP. For example, I am an evil car negotiator, if you can get to a level of doing it professionally, I am pretty close. I have been pimped out to buy cars for all family, friends and co-workers/bosses to the point where I make about 10-12 new car deals a year. I have landed some crazy things like 30-40% off MSRP. My F30 deal is not characteristic of a normal sale price either on a 2013. But it doesn't represent the car, it represents me and negotiating, that dealers stock, geography. Too much.

MSRP is straight forward and isolates the other variables and makes car to car comparisons more tolerable.

Same thing for EPA MPG. Just because I am able to average 40mpg does not mean I will tout it over Hybrids that EPA estimates to average 40mpg. Again, too many factors, my personal driving style, stop and go, highway...and on and on. EPA does scientific testing to take variables out of it again. So when an F30 gets 35 on the highway and an something else gets 30, those numbers have some meat to them.

Keyless start for me, I disarm the car long before getting in it and have the key back in my pocket, I get in the car and go. I like it. When I had an E90 loaner it felt odd to me to have this bulky key that I would insert into the dash and depress. It's what you get used to.
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      12-21-2012, 06:55 PM   #122
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There are too many factors with car prices to compare car to car if you stray from MSRP. For example, I am an evil car negotiator, if you can get to a level of doing it professionally, I am pretty close. I have been pimped out to buy cars for all family, friends and co-workers/bosses to the point where I make about 10-12 new car deals a year. I have landed some crazy things like 30-40% off MSRP. My F30 deal is not characteristic of a normal sale price either on a 2013. But it doesn't represent the car, it represents me and negotiating, that dealers stock, geography. Too much.

MSRP is straight forward and isolates the other variables and makes car to car comparisons more tolerable.

Same thing for EPA MPG. Just because I am able to average 40mpg does not mean I will tout it over Hybrids that EPA estimates to average 40mpg. Again, too many factors, my personal driving style, stop and go, highway...and on and on. EPA does scientific testing to take variables out of it again. So when an F30 gets 35 on the highway and an something else gets 30, those numbers have some meat to them.

Keyless start for me, I disarm the car long before getting in it and have the key back in my pocket, I get in the car and go. I like it. When I had an E90 loaner it felt odd to me to have this bulky key that I would insert into the dash and depress. It's what you get used to.
I guess you and I are very much alike, most of my extended family and friend take me alone when they negociate for a new car. Although I cannot say I have ever gotten a 30-40% off MSRP on a current modern year new car or year end model new car. When I was comparing the E90 to the F30, I was comparing what I can buy the car for, usually means a bit below current market value plus incentives.
The F30's keyless still make no sense to me, if I have the key out to unlock the door, its actually an extra step to put the keys back in my pocket. Comfort access is the best, but the F30's comfort access do not have door sensors in the back, which is kind of a pain too. The F30's keyless start is free, or should I say paid for in the MSRP, so I guess one cannot complain about it too much.
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      12-21-2012, 08:33 PM   #123
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And your stats came from where? Your personal experience?

Great. I can introduce you to a couple E90 owners that swear they'll never buy another BMW due to quality and reliability problems. My 2010 E90 was nearly trouble free.
5300 miles on my 2012 F30.

4 visits in 2 months of ownership, I'd say pretty reliable single person experience

But I deeply love the car, I dropped it at the dealership (again) this morning and I've been missing it since...
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      12-21-2012, 08:35 PM   #124
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5300 miles on my 2012 F30.

4 visits in 2 months of ownership, I'd say pretty reliable single person experience

But I deeply love the car, I dropped it at the dealership (again) this morning and I've been missing it since...
But what were those 4 visits for? And are the tech's at your dealer competent and fixing the issues the first time? Many questions.
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      12-21-2012, 08:35 PM   #125
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BTW, what's considered "base" here?

328i with no options?

Or no-line?
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      12-21-2012, 08:37 PM   #126
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But what were those 4 visits for? And are the tech's at your dealer competent and fixing the issues the first time? Many questions.
Yes and No. First visit was for a seat related issue they're still working on resolving...three visits later. Then came a steering wheel issue (moan), and some rattles. And the rusty seat rail. That's QC my friend.

Intertwined with those visits was my "guinea pig" experience of being the first on the boards to order/install the M Performance Suspension "kit"...which has necessitated the revisits.

All in all, if it weren't for the seat/steering wheel/rattle issues (none of which I experienced with my Mitsu Evo VIII, Acura TSX or Acura RDX), I would've visited them twice (for the suspension upgrades).
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      12-21-2012, 09:09 PM   #127
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Ive driven a few f30 328 loaners, the engine is pretty sweet but the steering....ugh. Even in sport mode it feels artificial and removed.
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      12-21-2012, 10:04 PM   #128
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Yes and No. First visit was for a seat related issue they're still working on resolving...three visits later. Then came a steering wheel issue (moan), and some rattles. And the rusty seat rail. That's QC my friend.

Intertwined with those visits was my "guinea pig" experience of being the first on the boards to order/install the M Performance Suspension "kit"...which has necessitated the revisits.

All in all, if it weren't for the seat/steering wheel/rattle issues (none of which I experienced with my Mitsu Evo VIII, Acura TSX or Acura RDX), I would've visited them twice (for the suspension upgrades).
I will agree with you on the seat rust and steering wheel column noise issues.
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      12-22-2012, 09:42 AM   #129
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Yes and No. First visit was for a seat related issue they're still working on resolving...three visits later. Then came a steering wheel issue (moan), and some rattles. And the rusty seat rail. That's QC my friend.

Intertwined with those visits was my "guinea pig" experience of being the first on the boards to order/install the M Performance Suspension "kit"...which has necessitated the revisits.

All in all, if it weren't for the seat/steering wheel/rattle issues (none of which I experienced with my Mitsu Evo VIII, Acura TSX or Acura RDX), I would've visited them twice (for the suspension upgrades).
Those are all minor problems, still not too bad for a new design. No major TSB or recalls and no wide spread problems. I would say the f30 is pretty reliable as far as a new German design is concerned. German cars will never be as relaible as Japanese cars, I accepted that a long time ago and still rather drive German car than Japanese.
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      12-22-2012, 10:15 AM   #130
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I think the F30 is very much worth owning, but the steering feel (or lack thereof) is a dramatic departure for BMW. After my E46, I thought the E90 was fugly but at least it drove like a BMW -- so I ended up with one (actually two).

I just cant say the same about the F30. I love the styling, the interior is MUCH better (yes, even the screen) and the N20/8-speed drivetrain is sublime; in many ways I do think of the F30 as an E90 with some of the kinks worked out (gas mileage on an E90 is abysmal)....but I don't think I can convince myself that it's worth owning because the "Ultimate Driving Machine" experience has been very watered down (yes - the F30 I drove was loaded, so I tried everything I could to like the way it handled).

My question: Porsche just made the same transition to electric steering to gain MPG and the automotive press is singing praises about how the feeling is still there...if Porsche can do it, why can't BMW?
This sums up my views. IMO, the F30 is a phenomenal overall package as a daily driver/family car, but the numb steering and more isolated feel remove it from the "Ultimate Driving Machine" category. One F30 I tested was a Sport Line 328i with 6MT, and the other was a 2013 328i M Sport with x-Drive, both of which I drove in sport mode. Fix the steering, and I'd want one. As it stands, I'll stick with my TSX, which actually has better steering, and has provided a nice respite from European "reliability."

Many manufacturers seem to be climbing the EPS learning curve, but I'm nonetheless stumped as to why, of all companies, BMW didn't get it right on the definitive sport sedan. Even Honda and Ford have done it better IMO, which is truly surprising, especially with respect to Ford. (At least Honda has years of experience with EPS, going back to the NSX and S2000.) Try a Focus ST, for example, which doesn't offer loads of feedback, but at least has strong on center tracking for a more "locked in" feel overall.

I think BMW will respond to the criticisms, and seriously revamp the EPS to deliver more feedback, and a more traditional BMW feel. As I recall, they did this with the E90 after the first year model's steering was criticized for being too light.
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      12-22-2012, 02:57 PM   #131
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Really?! I surely don't think so. I also prefer the E46 to the E90 but that doesn't make the E90 junk. The F30 is a lot more rigid chassis then the E90 and with few suspension tweaks I am sure it could hold more than it's own.
"Junk" may be too rough.
I just went to the Dealership this morning (state inspection) and asked to test the base 2013 328i.
It is not bad, however, not worth 70% of what they charge for it.
And I can tell you, the feel, handling and steering is far from what I remember the base e90 was...
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      12-22-2012, 03:02 PM   #132
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There are Porsche purists who wax on that the last great 911 was the air-cooled 993 and hated everything since.

Porsche sells more specific cars to a much smaller audience. For BMW, The steering change will alienate 15% of existing buyers but at the same time might bring in 20% of people who were on the fence.

I like the steering in my M-Sport (F30) and was never impressed with the E90 steering.
This sums it all up from your side.
Those two should not even be compared...
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