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      12-24-2012, 06:16 PM   #1
Dmacc
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100% e85 cold starts

I just wanted to get some input from people running 100% e85 in their tank and their cold morning start ups.

Today mine was a headache, last night I filled up the whole tank with e85 and this morning I started the car it was 42 degrees outside and the cold start was as expected very choppy, but extra choppy today. After I let the car warm up I drove out of my complex to the street, I shifted from first to second, then second to third, and once I gave it a hint of gas in third, the whole engine shut down and the limp mode light came on. I coasted to the side of the road, started the car, it glugged out again, I started it one more time, gave it some gas and it started up fine. The car drove normally except whenever I went to downshift and rev match, when I blipped the throttle I could hear a slight misfire and the revs wouldn't climb as fast as they normally do. I scanned the car for codes and got two, both of which I couldn't find posted anywhere. One was 6963 and was in German but had engine and malfunction associated with it, and the other was a high pressure pump code which I can't remember the actual code right now. Cleared codes, drove to chevron filled up with 1 gal of 91, drove the car a mile or two, rev matched and the revs were normal now no misfire, did some hard pulls on the highway and the car did not hiccup once and ran very strong.

Could it be I may have gotten some crummy e85 from the pump? Is anyone else seeing symptoms similar to this?
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      12-24-2012, 06:39 PM   #2
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is your car okay to run 100%?

bms or cobb flashed and piggybacked for 100% e85?
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      12-24-2012, 07:04 PM   #3
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If you're on stock fueling and dme management (with regards to E85), your car is going to be an unhappy camper with 100% e85 on a cold start. I can't say i've ever tried anywhere near that aggressive a mixture, but I don't think there's anything abnormal about your experience...call me crazy, but don't you have flexfuel lines? I seem to remember a thread or post from you about them. Could just be the food coma i'm in from xmas eve dinner lol.
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      12-24-2012, 07:27 PM   #4
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It's a bit cooler up North in Portland, but I keep my car in the garage and it's about 65 F. Flex sensor is reading 80% Ethanol and I know I've had a few long starts as it's cooled off outside. But for the most part things haven't been an issue. I just had my HPFP replaced a few months back and I'm also running the FFTEC booster pump.

Didn't you get the booster pump before Shift S3ctor?

For those who don't know, I run PROcede Flashed with PROcede Flex Fuel, PROcede Rev 3 with 100% Methanol PWM enabled all the time...

If you're car is out in the cold, I would be dropping back to 60% Ethanol. Shouldn't have any issues at 60%. Also, you can try making your AFR's richer at startup. You may want to let your car sit and run for a bit to warm up.
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      12-24-2012, 07:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrift4wd
is your car okay to run 100%?

bms or cobb flashed and piggybacked for 100% e85?
I have the procede rev 2.5 with Vishnu flex fuel and the lpfp upgrade. My guess when looking back at this situation is that I got a bad batch of e85 from the pump. Is the gasoline that the ethanol is mixed with 87 octane in e85?
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      12-24-2012, 11:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
I have the procede rev 2.5 with Vishnu flex fuel and the lpfp upgrade. My guess when looking back at this situation is that I got a bad batch of e85 from the pump. Is the gasoline that the ethanol is mixed with 87 octane in e85?

Just wondering what the lpfp upgrade is? And who makes it? Is it worth it? I'm looking to order the flex fuel kit now and also have rev2.5. Do u think its worth it to upgrade to rev3 first or should I just go for the kit on 2.5??? Thanks
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      12-24-2012, 11:42 PM   #7
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Just a couple words of advice:

When running E85, do not go one boost (even a "hint" of it) until the car has warmed up. Because the plugs will be fouled from the rough cold start. During the warm-up (which can take several minutes), the plugs will clean up and then you will be good to go. But I can see a scenario where not enough warm up time was given and each attempt to run under boost causes more and more fouling. Making it take longer and longer for the plugs to clean up. Unfortunately, this is the downside of running run strong E85 mixes in winter. Not much you can do about it unfortunately. Although we are looking at things that could possibly make cold-start less choppy.
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      12-25-2012, 12:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
I have the procede rev 2.5 with Vishnu flex fuel and the lpfp upgrade. My guess when looking back at this situation is that I got a bad batch of e85 from the pump. Is the gasoline that the ethanol is mixed with 87 octane in e85?
How much is the lpfp upgrade?
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      12-25-2012, 12:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Just a couple words of advice:

When running E85, do not go one boost (even a "hint" of it) until the car has warmed up. Because the plugs will be fouled from the rough cold start. During the warm-up (which can take several minutes), the plugs will clean up and then you will be good to go. But I can see a scenario where not enough warm up time was given and each attempt to run under boost causes more and more fouling. Making it take longer and longer for the plugs to clean up. Unfortunately, this is the downside of running run strong E85 mixes in winter. Not much you can do about it unfortunately. Although we are looking at things that could possibly make cold-start less choppy.
Good info, thanks for the help Shiv.
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      12-25-2012, 07:21 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbrooks18 View Post
How much is the lpfp upgrade?
Call Mike @ FFTEC and he can hook you up with pricing. I would recommend you just take a trip to Hayward and have them install it for you. It mounts inside the tank, so can be a little tricky if your not up to the task.
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      12-25-2012, 07:39 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManoB1 View Post
Just wondering what the lpfp upgrade is? And who makes it? Is it worth it? I'm looking to order the flex fuel kit now and also have rev2.5. Do u think its worth it to upgrade to rev3 first or should I just go for the kit on 2.5??? Thanks
LPFP Booster is a Walbro e85 High Performance designed for engines that make over 500 hp. It's rated to support 800 hp at 12v and 950 hp at 13.5v. It has a custom machined and anodized cap designed by FFTEC to convert it to an inline pump that minimizes flow resistance and boosted the on demand flow requirements needed to support higher hp using e85. It uses the stock fuel line connectors, so you don't have to cut any lines and it's completely reversible.

Do I think it's worth it. YES... I had mine installed before shift sector and haven't had a LPFP code sense I had it installed.

Upgrading to Rev 3 is simple. If you don't use Meth then NO. But if you do, I would recommend upgrading and then switching your PWM to allow the PROcede to control Meth rather than using the boost switch. It will allow you to purge the meth system from the volume button on the wheel. Comes in handy when your racing because you can make sure your system is primed at launch. You also have the NLS and 2 Step Rev Limiter.

Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions. If I can't help the guys at FFTEC or Vishnu can.
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      12-25-2012, 09:34 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
. But if you do, I would recommend upgrading and then switching your PWM to allow the PROcede to control Meth rather than using the boost switch. It will allow you to purge the meth system from the volume button on the wheel.
Really?

Is that a built-in feature of procede......first I heard of it.

Must be a revision 3 only item?
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      12-25-2012, 01:28 PM   #13
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I have jb4 and Cobb flash 100% stock fuel system and tuning 100% e85. Zero problems on any condition of start up no rough idle whatsoever.

I started my car a few nights ago after it had been sitting for 3 days and it was 19* started like factory.
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      12-25-2012, 03:22 PM   #14
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i currently have 100% E85 in my tank as well. its the coldest its ever been here with E85 in my tank (20 degrees) and i decided to start it up after i saw this thread. It was a little rough for the first 3 or so seconds. but no driveability issues whatsoever.
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      12-25-2012, 03:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRager
i currently have 100% E85 in my tank as well. its the coldest its ever been here with E85 in my tank (20 degrees) and i decided to start it up after i saw this thread. It was a little rough for the first 3 or so seconds. but no driveability issues whatsoever.
I see, I must not have been allowing enough time for the cold start, today I waited about 4 minutes before driving the car and everything seemed rock steady
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      12-25-2012, 05:13 PM   #16
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      12-25-2012, 05:42 PM   #17
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There are differences in the e85 ethanol concentrations. Those who are managing ok have lower ethanol content. 100% e85 is not homogeneous.

Idling does not help much for warming up. Just drive a while without getting into boost after the start up.
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      12-25-2012, 09:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
I see, I must not have been allowing enough time for the cold start, today I waited about 4 minutes before driving the car and everything seemed rock steady
yeah id imagine if i drove off right away the car wouldve had some issues. but i ran back in the house to grab something before i left so it had a little time to idle and straighten things out on its own.
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      12-25-2012, 09:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio
There are differences in the e85 ethanol concentrations. Those who are managing ok have lower ethanol content. 100% e85 is not homogeneous.

Idling does not help much for warming up. Just drive a while without getting into boost after the start up.
Gotcha, when I was driving on the road, I was not hitting boost at all, it just happened to die right when I barely made contact with the accelerator shifting from second to third.

I always let the car warm up before hitting boost, so I think it might have been more along the lines of me not waiting long enough for the car to complete its warm up sequence.

Thanks for the help and input everyone, happy holidays :cheers:
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      12-26-2012, 08:56 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc
I just wanted to get some input from people running 100% e85 in their tank and their cold morning start ups.

Today mine was a headache, last night I filled up the whole tank with e85 and this morning I started the car it was 42 degrees outside and the cold start was as expected very choppy, but extra choppy today. After I let the car warm up I drove out of my complex to the street, I shifted from first to second, then second to third, and once I gave it a hint of gas in third, the whole engine shut down and the limp mode light came on. I coasted to the side of the road, started the car, it glugged out again, I started it one more time, gave it some gas and it started up fine. The car drove normally except whenever I went to downshift and rev match, when I blipped the throttle I could hear a slight misfire and the revs wouldn't climb as fast as they normally do. I scanned the car for codes and got two, both of which I couldn't find posted anywhere. One was 6963 and was in German but had engine and malfunction associated with it, and the other was a high pressure pump code which I can't remember the actual code right now. Cleared codes, drove to chevron filled up with 1 gal of 91, drove the car a mile or two, rev matched and the revs were normal now no misfire, did some hard pulls on the highway and the car did not hiccup once and ran very strong.

Could it be I may have gotten some crummy e85 from the pump? Is anyone else seeing symptoms similar to this?
Don't use Valero E85. Only use Propel.

My car wouldn't even start after I filled up with Valero E85 at 40 degrees. Propel fuel has made it essentially a none issue in the morning.

I know you live nearby so I am betting on bad fuel.
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      12-26-2012, 02:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Presidio335xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc
I just wanted to get some input from people running 100% e85 in their tank and their cold morning start ups.

Today mine was a headache, last night I filled up the whole tank with e85 and this morning I started the car it was 42 degrees outside and the cold start was as expected very choppy, but extra choppy today. After I let the car warm up I drove out of my complex to the street, I shifted from first to second, then second to third, and once I gave it a hint of gas in third, the whole engine shut down and the limp mode light came on. I coasted to the side of the road, started the car, it glugged out again, I started it one more time, gave it some gas and it started up fine. The car drove normally except whenever I went to downshift and rev match, when I blipped the throttle I could hear a slight misfire and the revs wouldn't climb as fast as they normally do. I scanned the car for codes and got two, both of which I couldn't find posted anywhere. One was 6963 and was in German but had engine and malfunction associated with it, and the other was a high pressure pump code which I can't remember the actual code right now. Cleared codes, drove to chevron filled up with 1 gal of 91, drove the car a mile or two, rev matched and the revs were normal now no misfire, did some hard pulls on the highway and the car did not hiccup once and ran very strong.

Could it be I may have gotten some crummy e85 from the pump? Is anyone else seeing symptoms similar to this?
Don't use Valero E85. Only use Propel.

My car wouldn't even start after I filled up with Valero E85 at 40 degrees. Propel fuel has made it essentially a none issue in the morning.

I know you live nearby so I am betting on bad fuel.
I always fill up with propel, the only time I filled up with Valero was when I was up at Hayward having my kit installed and they needed me to fill up, other than that I always use propel, thanks for the heads up!
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      12-26-2012, 03:14 PM   #22
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Is there anyone in the northern states running e85 in the winter? They dont even offer it up here because they say it doesnt do well in cold climates, I could deal with a couple seconds of rough idle if thats the only problem with it.
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