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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > Wagner Tuning 335d Intercooler Kit Ready to Ship?



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      12-13-2012, 08:25 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
TDIwyse's datalogging over on -fest seems to support the need for the IC upgrade.
Perhaps but that's not the question in my mind-I have no doubt about it.. The question I have is, will the Wagner IC as it's designed yield any benefit over the stock IC or will it cause to much of a pressure drop and adversely impact performance? Secondly, will the DME need to be reprogrammed (increase boost) to take advantage of the larger IC if the pressure drop proves to be too much? Unless we have the answers to these questions you're simply buying a product based on blind faith.

Last edited by cssnms; 12-13-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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      12-13-2012, 09:11 AM   #46
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Chris good question on reprogramming with IC. I could not know but Lenny had advised me to get a larger IC so that the car could perform to the ECU upgrade the OEM IC did NO JUSTICE for RENNtech upgrade, I believe TE did the same the car needed an upgrade so that it would perform better one reason he did his own PIGGYBACK
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      12-13-2012, 10:32 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puerto Rican 335d View Post
Chris good question on reprogramming with IC. I could not know but Lenny had advised me to get a larger IC so that the car could perform to the ECU upgrade the OEM IC did NO JUSTICE for RENNtech upgrade, I believe TE did the same the car needed an upgrade so that it would perform better one reason he did his own PIGGYBACK
Axel, we need to define "perform better." And by that I mean not based on someone's butt dyno. Further, and not to beat a dead horse, but we/I also need evidence the Wagner IC is any "better" than stock.

Based on what Renntech told you, it would appear to me they reprogrammed your ecu to take advantage of such add-ons?
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      12-13-2012, 11:03 AM   #48
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Correct although the RENNtech's Flash is mostly designed to use the OEM IC, it will reap better benfits with a larger IC that said, my new FLASH takes me even deeper than that I have yet to do the dyno since my last flash but will do so once I get the Wagner IC, i firmly believe it will give great improvement from the OEM IC. My butt dyno tells me that I will see great improvements LOL!!
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      12-13-2012, 11:05 AM   #49
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From Evolve on the matter....

HI Chris

Not one of our customers has fitted an aftermarket FMIC to a 335d and we have tuned 1000's.

A good intercooler should not need a remap to make it work. A good intercooler should work regardless.

The charge temps are lower - physically this means colder denser air hence more power. Now if the intercooler has a large pressure drop and the map needs to be changed to bring the boost back up….this is not a good intercooler. You are now asking the turbo to work harder than it was before. An intercooler should not only reduce temps but also do it without causing too much pressure drop.

Unfortunately some of the more common and popular intercoolers do have a large pressure drop but they market them solely on their temp lowering abilities. They do not publish pressure drop numbers because they are not favourable to them.
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      12-13-2012, 11:40 AM   #50
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It also appears that Wagner is not going to be able to provide ANY test data until March or April '13.



Looks like we have it running somewhere between march to April, that's what the power company told us.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/ best Regards

Carsten Wagner
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      12-13-2012, 11:42 AM   #51
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Thank Chris,
This is exactly why we asking for pressure drop. I really can't imagine company like Wagner that has done some many intercoolers to not have the equipment to test.
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      12-13-2012, 12:00 PM   #52
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ok then I guess I will wait for it to see the effects, meanwhile hurry up and wait
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      12-13-2012, 02:03 PM   #53
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Not a 335d, but nevertheless you guys might find this interesting as it relates to the topic at hand....

Things start to get more interesting around page 9.

http://www.minitorque.com/forum/f847...-review-30215/

Last edited by cssnms; 12-13-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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      12-13-2012, 03:16 PM   #54
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Recently I've spoken to afew mappers,, all of which seem to think or at least have the same view, the standard IC setup can cope quite easily with the boost levels thrown at it, even when presented with a strong map

Unless you're planning a DPF delete I would imagine massive HP gains

That said, I'd like to see the difference in power band and delivery.
In my past experiments with cars, I removed the DPF on my GT170D mk5 golf, massive difference, then I added and uprated S3 intercooler (8p shape) - the power was actually less peak, without having the map adjusted to compensate, but the power delivery became more urgent and full boost archived allot sooner and latest allot longer at the top end, not bad for a PD engine

Just my thoughts .... It'll be interesting to see the differences that will or could be archived
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      12-14-2012, 09:01 AM   #55
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Gracias Not Normal, great insight but the 335d is a different ANIMAL, we'll see what happens.
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      12-14-2012, 09:31 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Not a 335d, but nevertheless you guys might find this interesting as it relates to the topic at hand....

Things start to get more interesting around page 9.

http://www.minitorque.com/forum/f847...-review-30215/
That was a good reading. Which is more interesting was that I didn't see anywhere pressure data of the Wagner FMIC even after everyone kept asking. We might get more luck getting EVOLVE to design and test FMIC for 335D.
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      12-14-2012, 10:14 AM   #57
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Quote:
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That was a good reading. Which is more interesting was that I didn't see anywhere pressure data of the Wagner FMIC even after everyone kept asking.
Agreed. Frankly I was shocked at how little the Wagner rep seemed to know about the performance characteristics of their own product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyinp View Post
We might get more luck getting EVOLVE to design and test FMIC for 335D.
I actually mentioned this to Imran yesterday after he told me how great their local manufacturer is - see below.


"We actually have a very good IC manufacturer we work with locally. They make our R56 and 335i IC and also the OEM IC's for the Koniegsegg. We have discussed and FMIC for the 335d but have not had a huge demand for it so have not gone ahead with making one."

But after some prodding (begging ) he responded...

"Let me look into it with regards to costs etc and I will let you know. They will never be as cheap as some of the other ones as we only used vacuum braised cores that are specifically designed for each application."

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      12-14-2012, 12:04 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puerto Rican 335d View Post
Gracias Not Normal, great insight but the 335d is a different ANIMAL, we'll see what happens.
Oh i quite agree, they're very different indeed, but the theory remains the same.

the rolling road data will be interesting to see, especially if back to back runs are carried out

Stock IC to Wagner IC

Then add the tune to both and run both again
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      12-14-2012, 06:22 PM   #59
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This is awesome, should not be that hard to get prototype made. I am sure we will get more data from Evolve than we have seen from Wagner. It is not that hard to get the data we want to justify us spending money. I really want Evolve to help us understand if we really need FMIC or if we going to benefit from it. I do understand you need one for tuned car, since you are making the turbo to push more psi (boost) = generating more heat. But since our cars even with tune keep the same boost level we might see less benefit from FMIC. I am just thinking out loud.
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Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Agreed. Frankly I was shocked at how little the Wagner rep seemed to know about the performance characteristics of their own product.



I actually mentioned this to Imran yesterday after he told me how great their local manufacturer is - see below.


"We actually have a very good IC manufacturer we work with locally. They make our R56 and 335i IC and also the OEM IC's for the Koniegsegg. We have discussed and FMIC for the 335d but have not had a huge demand for it so have not gone ahead with making one."

But after some prodding (begging ) he responded...

"Let me look into it with regards to costs etc and I will let you know. They will never be as cheap as some of the other ones as we only used vacuum braised cores that are specifically designed for each application."
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      12-29-2012, 01:57 PM   #60
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Do we have any updates on both?
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      12-29-2012, 05:17 PM   #61
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I have not followed up with Imran. Will do soon.
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      12-30-2012, 05:42 AM   #62
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Oh i quite agree, they're very different indeed, but the theory remains the same.

the rolling road data will be interesting to see, especially if back to back runs are carried out

Stock IC to Wagner IC

Then add the tune to both and run both again
I doubt you will see any substantial difference on the dyno. Since the flow of air around the intercooler can't be the same as when you drive on the road and therefore not be able to cool the air for the intake as it will be on the road.

I had that experience on my 330d with bigger IC. Almost no difference on the dyno. Only 2-3Hp and 5-7Nm more. But several test with a racelogic box with accel. from aprox 50km/h to 150km/h have shown aprox 1.5 sec. improvement from OEM IC to bigger IC.
This also corresponds to my butt dyno which says that the car has more power from aprox 80km/h all the way to the top....

Btw, I have not fitted the DPF removal pipe yet. Hope to get it on in the first week of the new year.
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      12-30-2012, 08:32 AM   #63
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But several test with a racelogic box with accel. from aprox 50km/h to 150km/h have shown aprox 1.5 sec. improvement from OEM IC to bigger IC.

This also corresponds to my butt dyno which says that the car has more power from aprox 80km/h all the way to the top....
Interesting...your experience corresponds with Turbo Eddie and 335dwagon in terms of the 'butt dyno' assessment, however you also have numbers to support your feeling. I guess it's up to the suppliers to figure out how to represent their product.
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      12-30-2012, 01:43 PM   #64
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Interesting...your experience corresponds with Turbo Eddie and 335dwagon in terms of the 'butt dyno' assessment, however you also have numbers to support your feeling. I guess it's up to the suppliers to figure out how to represent their product.
I don't expect to see huge gain of HP or TQ if at all. The difference would be after many runs at the dyno your HP/TQ should stay consistent. With your stock intercooler you will start pumping hot air and which will reduce your HP/TQ. However what would be nice to see is the intercooler flow and pressure drop. Which so far Wagner has refuse to give us.
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      12-31-2012, 09:37 AM   #65
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      01-09-2013, 12:25 PM   #66
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Heard back from Evolve - they are waiting for a customer to come in so they can get a look at the IC. Hopefully will hear more soon.
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