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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > Test drove a couple coupes today, impressions and what to do now?



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      01-01-2013, 08:01 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
Stupid is as stupid does. Going into debt for anything that depreciates and doesn't make you money is crazy.
I'm saying if one has the money to buy a car but can get 0% and opt to keep some of the cash in his pocket (which allow him to pay it off whenever he can), he's not losing out on anything only person. Thats not stupid, missing that key point was.
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      01-01-2013, 08:11 PM   #46
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I'm a native New Yorker (Nothern Blvd, Queens). I got the point. Made sense to me.
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      01-01-2013, 08:16 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by e92_Mack
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Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
Stupid is as stupid does. Going into debt for anything that depreciates and doesn't make you money is crazy.
I'm saying if one has the money to buy a car but can get 0% and opt to keep some of the cash in his pocket (which allow him to pay it off whenever he can), he's not losing out on anything only person. Thats not stupid, missing that key point was.
I got the point just fine and its stupid to do that. You went into debt for no reason on a depreciating asset that doesn't make you money. That payment money could be going to you instead of the bank. If you can make payments then you can save up first. 0% is not free money no matter how fancy you think you are with financing. You don't accumulate wealth by being in debt.
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      01-01-2013, 08:21 PM   #48
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I got the point just fine and its stupid to do that. You went into debt for no reason on a depreciating asset that doesn't make you money. That payment money could be going to you instead of the bank. If you can make payments then you can save up first. 0% is not free money no matter how fancy you think you are with financing. You don't accumulate wealth by being in debt.
You are 100% correct. I guess we BMW owners/lessors have to find that balance to get the car we love at the price we're willing to pay (whether it be at 0% or some other way). Yes, a depreciating object is a losing proposition for the money; but unfortunately a necessary evil.
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      01-01-2013, 08:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by fshubert
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Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
I got the point just fine and its stupid to do that. You went into debt for no reason on a depreciating asset that doesn't make you money. That payment money could be going to you instead of the bank. If you can make payments then you can save up first. 0% is not free money no matter how fancy you think you are with financing. You don't accumulate wealth by being in debt.
You are 100% correct. I guess we BMW owners/lessors have to find that balance to get the car we love at the price we're willing to pay (whether it be at 0% or some other way). Yes, a depreciating object is a losing proposition for the money; but unfortunately a necessary evil.
Most people are too immature to even realize they can't afford these cars. Just because you can make a lease or a loan payment doesn't mean you can afford it. The real necessary evil is realizing you should pay cash for a used Honda. Haha
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      01-01-2013, 08:39 PM   #50
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I'm a native New Yorker (Nothern Blvd, Queens). I got the point. Made sense to me.
I work around that area

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Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
I got the point just fine and its stupid to do that. You went into debt for no reason on a depreciating asset that doesn't make you money. That payment money could be going to you instead of the bank. If you can make payments then you can save up first. 0% is not free money no matter how fancy you think you are with financing. You don't accumulate wealth by being in debt.
Its not stupid and you dont have to agree with it. Its only naive to think that your preference is the only smart way of buying a car. I don't think I'm fancy with financing. 0% allows borrowing money free of interest, thats that. But i'll agree to disagree and moving on.
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      01-01-2013, 08:50 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by jacobsed
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Originally Posted by fshubert
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Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
I got the point just fine and its stupid to do that. You went into debt for no reason on a depreciating asset that doesn't make you money. That payment money could be going to you instead of the bank. If you can make payments then you can save up first. 0% is not free money no matter how fancy you think you are with financing. You don't accumulate wealth by being in debt.
You are 100% correct. I guess we BMW owners/lessors have to find that balance to get the car we love at the price we're willing to pay (whether it be at 0% or some other way). Yes, a depreciating object is a losing proposition for the money; but unfortunately a necessary evil.
Most people are too immature to even realize they can't afford these cars. Just because you can make a lease or a loan payment doesn't mean you can afford it. The real necessary evil is realizing you should pay cash for a used Honda. Haha

Buying a car with cash is the only smart way to buy one. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but its a fact.
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      01-01-2013, 09:21 PM   #52
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If you have the $40k in hand and can also qualify for 0% interest, what's the harm in making payments while keeping your money is in the bank and knowing that you could pay the car off at any time if you wanted to? It allows you to keep the money accessible in the event of an unforeseen emergency, while also retaining the option to use those assets to pay off the car at any time if you so desire. I enjoy the security of having the money in the bank. You never know when an emergency could crop up. Spending $40k outright isn't an option for most folks.

I understand the logic of not taking on debt when you could avoid it, but I feel like having the liquid assets would be more desirable than not having the cash available and instead owning an expensive item with a depreciating value that you can't use to pay for something if a crisis arises.

I agree, owing money on a depreciating item isn't great either. From where I'm sitting, though, I'd rather have an interest free car payment and $40k in the bank than no payment and $40k less cash available to me. I'd rather have the large lump sum of money available for a rainy day than be free of a $500ish a month expense for the next 5 years. I can easily afford a monthly $500 payment, but not an unexpected $20,000 payment that pops up out of nowhere if my house gets flooded or something (maybe not the best example because I have insurance, but you get my drift.)
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      01-01-2013, 09:35 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyR83
If you have the $40k in hand and can also qualify for 0% interest, what's the harm in making payments while keeping your money is in the bank and knowing that you could pay the car off at any time if you wanted to? It allows you to keep the money accessible in the event of an unforeseen emergency, while also retaining the option to use those assets to pay off the car at any time if you so desire. I enjoy the security of having the money in the bank. You never know when an emergency could crop up. Spending $40k outright isn't an option for most folks.

I understand the logic of not taking on debt when you could avoid it, but I feel like having the liquid assets would be more desirable than not having the cash available and instead owning an expensive item with a depreciating value that you can't use to pay for something if a crisis arises.

I agree, owing money on a depreciating item isn't great either. From where I'm sitting, though, I'd rather have an interest free car payment and $40k in the bank than no payment and $40k less cash available to me. I'd rather have the large lump sum of money available for a rainy day than be free of a $500ish a month expense for the next 5 years. I can easily afford a monthly $500 payment, but not an unexpected $20,000 payment that pops up out of nowhere if my house gets flooded or something (maybe not the best example because I have insurance, but you get my drift.)
You can't afford the car and don't even realize it. You're fully leveraged with debt and no real emergency fund. How about you keep your emergency fund for actual emergencies and save up for a car and pay cash. You're what they call "big hat and no cattle" in Texas.
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      01-01-2013, 10:00 PM   #54
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Buying a car with cash is the only smart way to buy one. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but its a fact.
Uh-um. No feelings hurt on this side
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      01-01-2013, 10:14 PM   #55
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Wrong....it's pay now or pay later. If you can make payments then you can save up first and not go into debt for a car.

Do you really think anyone smart enough to be able to accumulate $50K – $75K - $100K would be so stupid to even think about spending it all on a depreciating asset like a car when you can get 0 down & 0% interest?

One way to make a big pile of cash smaller; buy a car for cash & drive it off the lot. Instant 20% loss. You might want to ask yourself if buying for cash is the best plan why do the guys who build the cars buy plant & equipment with bank loans not cash.

BTW about your big hat in Texas comment......It would lead me to believe they don't even teach basic economics in the schools down there. The cash you left in the bank whatever draws some kind of interest so it grows & if you only earn 2% its worth about $54K when the car is paid off while the $50K in dollars you are paying back out of current funds have less purchasing power, are less valuable, then when the note was signed. Its a thing called future value.

Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-01-2013 at 10:29 PM.
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      01-01-2013, 10:32 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92_Mack
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Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
Buying a car with cash is the only smart way to buy one. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but its a fact.
Uh-um. No feelings hurt on this side
I would never by a new car because of the depreciation. 5 years used is the sweet spot.

Companies get loans on depreciating assets because those assets make them money. Your personal car will not.

Emergency funds need to be in cash for emergencies. Not for making you a return on investment.

You should only buy a car with cash and be debt free if you want to accumulate real wealth and have financial peace.

The borrower is slave to the lender no matter how fancy you think you are with financing. You're always on the losing end.

Last edited by jacobsed; 01-01-2013 at 10:55 PM.
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      01-02-2013, 12:10 AM   #57
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Congrats man. This is the exact same thing I went through lol. I test drove the 328i and then I drove the 335i. The 328i felt kind of slow.. then I drove the 335i and knew it was what I was gonna get. If you're concerned about issues with a used car, why not lease it?
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      01-02-2013, 12:11 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
You can't afford the car and don't even realize it. You're fully leveraged with debt and no real emergency fund. How about you keep your emergency fund for actual emergencies and save up for a car and pay cash. You're what they call "big hat and no cattle" in Texas.
I guess I just don't understand. I have about 30k in the bank right now, and an extremely manageable $500 a month car payment. I find this favorable to having, say, 6k in the bank and no payment.

I understand that you disagree, but besides being able to say "I do not owe any money on this thing that I bought. It belongs entirely to me" I fail to see the benefit. If I suddenly needed $20k, I wouldn't have any way of putting my hands on it. With my current arrangement, I am able to do so. I have a strong credit score, am financially secure, and my monthly expenses allow me to contribute heartily to my retirement account and my savings biweekly while also living comfortably. I don't see how I am unable to afford this car.

Leave my cattle out of this
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      01-02-2013, 12:16 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by AndyR83 View Post
I guess I just don't understand. I have about 30k in the bank right now, and an extremely manageable $500 a month car payment. I find this favorable to having, say, 6k in the bank and no payment.

I understand that you disagree, but besides being able to say "I do not owe any money on this thing that I bought. It belongs entirely to me" I fail to see the benefit. If I suddenly needed $20k, I wouldn't have any way of putting my hands on it. With my current arrangement, I am able to do so. I have a strong credit score, am financially secure, and my monthly expenses allow me to contribute heartily to my retirement account and my savings biweekly while also living comfortably. I don't see how I am unable to afford this car.

Leave my cattle out of this
+1

As long as he has income coming in, it's a safe bet that he can afford his car. And even if he doesn't, he still has more than enough to cover the payment.
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      01-02-2013, 12:56 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
I would never by a new car because of the depreciation. 5 years used is the sweet spot.

Companies get loans on depreciating assets because those assets make them money. Your personal car will not.

Emergency funds need to be in cash for emergencies. Not for making you a return on investment.

You should only buy a car with cash and be debt free if you want to accumulate real wealth and have financial peace.

The borrower is slave to the lender no matter how fancy you think you are with financing. You're always on the losing end.
Wrong banks do not lend money to company because the machine they want to buy will make money for the company. They lend money based on the companies overall financials that show they can pay the money back. The new machine might make money but if the rest of the company is loosing its butt the bank will not lend to them.

A BMW is a luxury item & IMHO anything over a 4 door Civic is not really necessary but is nice to have if you can afford it. So it needs to be viewed in that way not just as a pure depreciating asset. You are paying money to play that you will never get back so you best pick the most fun toy if you can.

Why do you assume they are in trouble and canít afford one if they take out a car loan especially a zero interest one, that is just a silly statement since you donít have a clue about the other people on this form. You like second hand cars I won't go near one.

You also assume that a $50K fund earning interest is an emergency fund. How about its just some money in the bank earning interest that I felt no need to put into a car & has nothing to do with emergencies.

Thing is I can walk into a BMW dealer pick out a $60K, car sign for it, drive away & no cash changes hand no interest is charged on the note. I am pretty sure that would not be the case if I was over extended or a credit risk. Out of 6 cars & one bike on my driveway one is zero percent, 335is, one 0.9%, X3xdrive35i & the last which will be paid off this summer is 1.9%, Expedition XL Limited. No money was put down on any of them & all the others are paid for.

When it comes to buying new BMWís there is nothing unique or special about my situation. A lot of kids at my grandsons high school are driving more expensive cars then mine.

You might believe buying second hand cars for cash is the best plan but trying to ram it down other peoples throats who's situations you donít know is not very smart.
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      01-02-2013, 01:14 AM   #61
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Hey everyone,

I am a recent college grad and am trying to get together the funds for a new car. I have been infatuated with the m3 and lately the 335i for a while now and decided I needed a test drive to confirm what I was looking for.

First drive was a '12 335i coupe auto. Felt solid, very smooth, and had a great feeling of torque on tap. The ride was firm but comfortable. The seats and overall quality of interior were excellent! The motor just felt awesome though. I really get why you guys love these things so much, it was adequate and fast. No noticeable turbo lag, more like a little bit of tranny lag. Some minor hesitation upon throttle, but then it would rip.

Second drive was a '11 328i coupe auto. This felt good, just not AS good as the 335i that I just stepped out of. The seats were leatherette and the steering wheel did not feel as thick or comfortable. Otherwise, the power train was smooth and quick. Felt really good and did not feel slow at all. It just did not feel as good as the 335i. The salesman threw it into sport mode and I immediately appreciated the quicker downshifts and snappier up shifts. Made me consider an auto...

Overall these cars had a solid tight feel to them which I really enjoyed. The red leather seats in the 335i were really nice.

Now I just need to figure out what I am going to do. It seems this trip to the dealer raised more questions than it answered. Now I am all over the board with sedan, coupe, manual, auto, but I think it is safe to say I will be getting the 335i for that motor.

What are thoughts of using bmws graduate program (low monthly payments with balloon) or do you think a used one with around 50k mi will be reliable for years to come? (I have read a lot of threads on here about reliability, so I am just wondering how much cash I may have to put out over the next 50k mi for parts/labor if I buy used)

It is tough for me to weigh these options. I could get a new car built to my spec with covered maintenance and warranty for 50k, I would just be spending around 50k total on the car over 5-7 yrs... OR get a used one, which I am worried could be headache.

Thanks for reading!
Congrats!!

In addition to e90 did you think about e46 m3? It is an excellent machine and unique. That is a true M3.

Also, e90 328i manual is plenty fast and reliable. It is also much lighter than 335i. Also, manual is a great anti-theft device.

You can also check out lease-trader with an option to buy.

As you are going through your evaluation, consider also what car would you prefer to drive in HPDE. Even if it is not an option now it may become in the future.

GL and welcome to the club! :-)
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      01-02-2013, 02:43 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobsed View Post
I would never by a new car because of the depreciation. 5 years used is the sweet spot.
For 4 years the car has warranty and maintenance. At 5 years, it is also when the maintenance sinks starts to drain. You lose a lot of money the first year in depreciation, but you loose a lot of money on maintenance after 80k miles.

Quote:
Companies get loans on depreciating assets because those assets make them money. Your personal car will not.
It gets you to your workplace, so it is a depreciating asset that permits you to get a job, in some sense it is the best of your assets, because if you don't have it, you get no revenues.

Quote:
You should only buy a car with cash and be debt free if you want to accumulate real wealth and have financial peace.
I think you don't understand how monetary instruments works, and you should stay clear of them. For most people that actually understand what an APR and an opportunity cost are, it is just fine.


That being said, balloon payment is a big red flag. For the Op: Scratch a lot more on what that means for you, as usually, these types of loans are VERY expensive in the long run.
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      01-02-2013, 11:57 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by E92Snow View Post
+1

As long as he has income coming in, it's a safe bet that he can afford his car. And even if he doesn't, he still has more than enough to cover the payment.
Technically, a 16 year old with a weekend job could probably afford to cover the monthly lease payments but that doesn't change the fact he would be living beyond his means.

Most financial advisors advocate spending no more than 20% of your annual gross income on a car, so for a $50K car you would need to make about $250K. Makes sense when you think about it, a $50K car just shouldn't be affordable to the average guy.

IMO, too many people are driving cars they can't really afford. I don't see the point in driving a $50K car but living in a rental or having no net worth.

If I were a fresh grad, I'd buy a Honda, drive it until the wheels fall off, and save like crazy for the down payment on a condo.

Last edited by mynycbimmer; 01-02-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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      01-02-2013, 05:27 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Wrong banks do not lend money to company because the machine they want to buy will make money for the company. They lend money based on the companies overall financials that show they can pay the money back. The new machine might make money but if the rest of the company is loosing its butt the bank will not lend to them.

I said companies borrow money to buy assets because those assets make them money. I made no statement regarding why banks would or would not lend to them.

A BMW is a luxury item & IMHO anything over a 4 door Civic is not really necessary but is nice to have if you can afford it. So it needs to be viewed in that way not just as a pure depreciating asset. You are paying money to play that you will never get back so you best pick the most fun toy if you can.

Why do you assume they are in trouble and canít afford one if they take out a car loan especially a zero interest one, that is just a silly statement since you donít have a clue about the other people on this form. You like second hand cars I won't go near one.

You also assume that a $50K fund earning interest is an emergency fund. How about its just some money in the bank earning interest that I felt no need to put into a car & has nothing to do with emergencies.

Your emergency fund should be 3 - 6 months of expenses. So whatever that is for you is the right amount.

Thing is I can walk into a BMW dealer pick out a $60K, car sign for it, drive away & no cash changes hand no interest is charged on the note. I am pretty sure that would not be the case if I was over extended or a credit risk. Out of 6 cars & one bike on my driveway one is zero percent, 335is, one 0.9%, X3xdrive35i & the last which will be paid off this summer is 1.9%, Expedition XL Limited. No money was put down on any of them & all the others are paid for.

When it comes to buying new BMWís there is nothing unique or special about my situation. A lot of kids at my grandsons high school are driving more expensive cars then mine.

You might believe buying second hand cars for cash is the best plan but trying to ram it down other peoples throats who's situations you donít know is not very smart.
The shortest path to building real wealth is to be debt free. Your most powerful wealth building tool is your income and the more of that you have available then the more wealth you will build. Pissing money away on new cars is like dropping an atom bomb on most people's personal finances. I agree that buying a new car is OK if you're already a millionaire. Most people think they can afford a car just because they can make a payment but they really can't and will never have any real wealth. Most everyone who drives around in a new luxury car is a poser because they are leasing or financing.

I purchased a used one owner, dealer serviced 2006 330xi with 100K miles on it for $15K cash out the door last January. I've driven it 25K miles and not a single issue. Other than the odometer reading you can't tell its a used car. What a sweet ride! Any repairs it might need in the future will be paid for out of pocket with cash and I'm sure those will be minimal. Look at all that money I saved buying used and my income isn't tied up making payments.
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      01-02-2013, 05:29 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
Technically, a 16 year old with a weekend job could probably afford to cover the monthly lease payments but that doesn't change the fact he would be living beyond his means.

Most financial advisors advocate spending no more than 20% of your annual gross income on a car, so for a $50K car you would need to make about $250K. Makes sense when you think about it, a $50K car just shouldn't be affordable to the average guy.

IMO, too many people are driving cars they can't really afford. I don't see the point in driving a $50K car but living in a rental or having no net worth.

If I were a fresh grad, I'd buy a Honda, drive it until the wheels fall off, and save like crazy for the down payment on a condo.
Well said!
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      01-02-2013, 05:35 PM   #66
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Woah ! Way too much arguing here, either way is perfectly okay. I will give my .02 cents.

Financing option: If I have 40k in cash and the dealer is giving me 0% financing I can reinvest atleast 30k in a money market. A conservative 3% growth would amount to $2,700 in 3 years that is simple math without compounding. Or I could put it in a IRA fund for further tax benefits.

Cash option: Only advantage here is I am not forced to pay full coverage on my insurance and save money by paying just liability if I wanted to save money. I don't have the numbers here, but I am curious what the dollar amount is for liability vs. full coverage.

Advantages to both options here .
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