E90Post
 


Bimmer Retrofit
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > AAA Recommends against using E15



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-31-2012, 11:27 PM   #1
Ferruccio
First Lieutenant
 
Ferruccio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 335i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Posts: 311
iTrader: (0)

AAA Recommends against using E15

So, I have been seeing a lot of hysteria and not much analysis as to the true nature of this issue. I caught wind (a month late) that AAA is urging people to stop using E15 fuel. I hear claims of destroying fuel lines, corroding the gaskets, and similar unsubstantiated statements. All attempts to further research this just results in news articles regurgitating the initial AAA report.

Is there any thorough analysis in response to this recent AAA plea? I have read enough about use of pure E85 in our cars, and I was under the impression that the modern materials we use are just fine for handling the higher ethanol content, and, so long as we don't leave the cars sitting for months with moisture-attracting E85 in a mostly empty gas tank, that we should be fine.

Is anyone aware of this recent claim by AAA? Does anyone have any information in response to the claim by AAA? I'm not so much looking for original research by the replier, but, more, a link to some thorough analysis on both sides of this issue. People keep raising this issue with me, since I use E85 in my car, and I would like to have some sources to further substantiate my side of the issue, or to, at least, offer some more unbiased research, since the media seems to be heavily against this 15% ethanol blend.
Ferruccio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2013, 02:00 AM   #2
Bimmer Barney
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2007 335i Sedan
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Posts: 364
iTrader: (4)

My mechanic, who is a BMW Certified Master Tech, advised me against running E85 as well in the N54 specifically. Makes me cautious, despite the many running E25 or E50 without issue.
Bimmer Barney is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2013, 02:33 AM   #3
Fully_Bolted
Banned
 
Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA

Posts: 443
iTrader: (0)

If your concerned, don't use it. But plenty of us are using it with no documented issues. For the record, my car is addicted to E85 an meth.
Fully_Bolted is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2013, 03:47 AM   #4
Ferruccio
First Lieutenant
 
Ferruccio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 335i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Posts: 311
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fully_Bolted View Post
If your concerned, don't use it. But plenty of us are using it with no documented issues. For the record, my car is addicted to E85 an meth.
But I'm not concerned. However, I feel like I want to further substantiate my stance with evidence. We all know of the 100,000 mile E85 non-flex fuel SUV that was driven around about 10 years ago that experienced no problems at all. Beyond that, I do not know many real world examples.

I only know of two or three disadvantages, and they are all something that can be mitigated with regular maintenance or good part choices.

1: Stresses out the fuel pump, wears it down faster, solved with a third fuel pump or a beefed up LPFP.

2: Cold start problems, use less during winter.

3: Corrosion issues due to condensation, which I hear can be solved by not letting the car sit around chronically.

But, I keep hearing fanciful news reports about how E85 will blow up your engine and destroy your fuel lines and gaskets, which baffles me.
Ferruccio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2013, 05:51 AM   #5
boostaholic786
Lieutenant
 
boostaholic786's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 JB4 G5 ISO RB's FBO+40%E85
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: irving tx

Posts: 554
iTrader: (0)

I have been using a E40 mix for over a year and a half probably. I have station right down the street from my house so its a consistent thing. I couldnt imagine what straight 93 would feel like lol.
__________________
A/W E92 335i M-sport with JB4 G5 ISO/ E40 WEDGE PERFORMANCE BACKEND FLASH, Alpina TCU flash for AT/Switch-tronic +AR Downpipes, Stett gen 1 intake, Wagner-Tuning FMIC+RB Turbo setup/ RB PCV Valve+ Akro exhaust+60% E85/93 mix,+ HRE P40S wheels, KW coilovers, M3 sways,+BMW performance CF Mirrors, BMW Performance CF deck lid spoiler,+ CF interior trim, p3 vent boost gauge,+ LUX angel eyes (11.73@119mph on street tires) NO METH!
boostaholic786 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2013, 11:19 AM   #6
E90Company
Major General
 
E90Company's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: FL

Posts: 6,142
iTrader: (2)

If you are concerned with running an E85 mix in your car, either don't do it, or run a small amount not so you can increase boost, but just clean up any timing corrections. That's the best advice I can give you, because we still haven't really seen any long term side effects yet.

That said, I wouldn't run more than E20 in my personal car.
__________________
E90 N54 6AT
E90Company is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2013, 08:35 PM   #7
nikitino25
Lieutenant
 
nikitino25's Avatar
 
Drives: '07 E92 335i
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Missouri

Posts: 493
iTrader: (1)

stabil

Anybody use Stabil ethanol treatment?
nikitino25 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2013, 09:55 PM   #8
Ænema
Captain
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Arizona Bay

Posts: 961
iTrader: (0)

If your fuel system is on the way out running a high ethanol content will just speed up the failure. The higher work load required for any part the faster the compnent wear.

HPFPs are a crapshoot and LPFPs are looking to be about a 80-100K mile maintenance item, so if you're really worried about spending the dough to replace items sooner rather than later just stick to low Exx mixes. If you're willing to spend a little $ then run heavey Exx and enjoy the power and engine safety.
__________________
"I'm not surprised you get along well with all the other neighbours. If you put fifty children with Down's syndrome in a room there is going to be a lot of hugging." David Thorne
Ænema is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2013, 11:40 PM   #9
Ferruccio
First Lieutenant
 
Ferruccio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 335i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Posts: 311
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fully_Bolted View Post
If your concerned, don't use it. But plenty of us are using it with no documented issues. For the record, my car is addicted to E85 an meth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Company View Post
If you are concerned with running an E85 mix in your car, either don't do it, or run a small amount not so you can increase boost, but just clean up any timing corrections. That's the best advice I can give you, because we still haven't really seen any long term side effects yet.

That said, I wouldn't run more than E20 in my personal car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
If your fuel system is on the way out running a high ethanol content will just speed up the failure. The higher work load required for any part the faster the compnent wear.

HPFPs are a crapshoot and LPFPs are looking to be about a 80-100K mile maintenance item, so if you're really worried about spending the dough to replace items sooner rather than later just stick to low Exx mixes. If you're willing to spend a little $ then run heavey Exx and enjoy the power and engine safety.
Guys, listen, read my first post: I am looking for further independent research and studies into the effects of ethanol on the engines. I am not worried about my car. I am not concerned about my car. I understand that ethanol will wear out my fuel pumps faster (as I mentioned in my second post already. More volume flow = more wear). I understand that this is still rather experimental. That is why I made this thread in the first place, to see if anyone has come across any additional research (not anecdotes) into the effects of ethanol on an engine.

If such analyses have been made specifically in response to this AAA claim, which seems to be mostly unsubstantiated, this would be helpful. I feel that every website that has regurgitated this AAA study has done little to no thorough analysis into whether they have a point or not, and people's misgivings about the subsidies and "better options" for generating ethanol are clouding their judgement on the objective effects of ethanol on their engines. However, it could be that I just haven't read enough research into it.

If you are wondering, I have been using anywhere from 50-100% E85 in my car for the past several months, and it has not had a hiccup aside from misfires (which I fixed, plugs were old and due for a change), and the LPFP not being able to keep up (understandable, stock fuel pumps). Other than that, my engine has not been behaving in any way even remotely similar to the reports of "blowing up engines" that people seem to keep posting. Additionally, since Brazil has been running a 25% ethanol blend for years, AAA's worries about E15 seem politically motivated. My concern is not about my car. It is about the spread of seemingly incorrect information about E85. Since I am an AAA member, I do give them money, so there is a level of trust that I feel might be waning. The only article I've seen AAA put out cites no sources whatsoever on the specific research overviewed.
Ferruccio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2013, 01:37 AM   #10
Deemo
Second Lieutenant
 
Deemo's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 E90 335i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Plano, Texas

Posts: 290
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Company View Post
If you are concerned with running an E85 mix in your car, either don't do it, or run a small amount not so you can increase boost, but just clean up any timing corrections. That's the best advice I can give you, because we still haven't really seen any long term side effects yet.

That said, I wouldn't run more than E20 in my personal car.
Why? you might as well just do E25 to get more of a performance bump...
__________________
07 E90 335i 6AT
Deemo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2013, 08:46 AM   #11
Fully_Bolted
Banned
 
Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA

Posts: 443
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferruccio View Post
Guys, listen, read my first post: I am looking for further independent research and studies into the effects of ethanol on the engines. I am not worried about my car. I am not concerned about my car. I understand that ethanol will wear out my fuel pumps faster (as I mentioned in my second post already. More volume flow = more wear). I understand that this is still rather experimental. That is why I made this thread in the first place, to see if anyone has come across any additional research (not anecdotes) into the effects of ethanol on an engine.

If such analyses have been made specifically in response to this AAA claim, which seems to be mostly unsubstantiated, this would be helpful. I feel that every website that has regurgitated this AAA study has done little to no thorough analysis into whether they have a point or not, and people's misgivings about the subsidies and "better options" for generating ethanol are clouding their judgement on the objective effects of ethanol on their engines. However, it could be that I just haven't read enough research into it.

If you are wondering, I have been using anywhere from 50-100% E85 in my car for the past several months, and it has not had a hiccup aside from misfires (which I fixed, plugs were old and due for a change), and the LPFP not being able to keep up (understandable, stock fuel pumps). Other than that, my engine has not been behaving in any way even remotely similar to the reports of "blowing up engines" that people seem to keep posting. Additionally, since Brazil has been running a 25% ethanol blend for years, AAA's worries about E15 seem politically motivated. My concern is not about my car. It is about the spread of seemingly incorrect information about E85. Since I am an AAA member, I do give them money, so there is a level of trust that I feel might be waning. The only article I've seen AAA put out cites no sources whatsoever on the specific research overviewed.
I think you are chasing unicorns here. No one is going to make a blanket statement, such as AAA, giving an "All Clear" to use E85 across all makes and models. Is Ethanol safe for all makes and models? Hell no. Is it safe to use in >2007 BMW 335i? I would say Yes.

To have a definitive answer, someone would have to study our engine and fuel system components during E85 use and over a long period of time.


Last edited by Fully_Bolted; 01-02-2013 at 08:52 AM.
Fully_Bolted is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2013, 11:42 AM   #12
Gugs
Cynical
 
Gugs's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 JetBlack
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Long island

Posts: 430
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Barney
My mechanic, who is a BMW Certified Master Tech, advised me against running E85 as well in the N54 specifically. Makes me cautious, despite the many running E25 or E50 without issue.
Your monkey that turns wrenches and obv has no knowledge whatsoever in e85 research told u that...sounds legit.
Gugs is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-04-2013, 01:53 PM   #13
Ferruccio
First Lieutenant
 
Ferruccio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 335i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Posts: 311
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fully_Bolted View Post
I think you are chasing unicorns here. No one is going to make a blanket statement, such as AAA, giving an "All Clear" to use E85 across all makes and models. Is Ethanol safe for all makes and models? Hell no. Is it safe to use in >2007 BMW 335i? I would say Yes.

To have a definitive answer, someone would have to study our engine and fuel system components during E85 use and over a long period of time.

I did post something longer here, but, I realized that I am definitely not chasing unicorns. Ethanol usage in fuel is such a large topic that there would surely be more analysis done on corrosive properties on a component-by-component basis, and an analysis done on the degradation in performance of certain engine components. There is a whole market of Flex Fuel vehicles that have been subjected to regular ethanol usage, with mechanics around the country seeing the effects on engines that have seen more ethanol, vs. less ethanol. There is a lot of data out there, but there does not seem to be much in terms of compiled studies. You don't necessarily need to put a whole car together and test the effects holistically. Car companies are able to issue warranties for cars with engines that have never seen a long term test (much like our own cars when the N54 engine first came out), so, it seems that one could establish enough confidence about long term ethanol usage.

Last edited by Ferruccio; 01-04-2013 at 02:04 PM.
Ferruccio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-05-2013, 01:55 AM   #14
Dave W.
Lieutenant
 
Drives: Porsche 951, 1992 Eagle Talon
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: SF Bay Area

Posts: 472
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferruccio View Post
But I'm not concerned. However, I feel like I want to further substantiate my stance with evidence. We all know of the 100,000 mile E85 non-flex fuel SUV that was driven around about 10 years ago that experienced no problems at all. Beyond that, I do not know many real world examples.

I only know of two or three disadvantages, and they are all something that can be mitigated with regular maintenance or good part choices.

1: Stresses out the fuel pump, wears it down faster, solved with a third fuel pump or a beefed up LPFP.

2: Cold start problems, use less during winter.

3: Corrosion issues due to condensation, which I hear can be solved by not letting the car sit around chronically.

But, I keep hearing fanciful news reports about how E85 will blow up your engine and destroy your fuel lines and gaskets, which baffles me.
To address a couple of points, most of the problems are found in older cars. Either due to high levels of wear- the car is already on the verge of breaking down and adding E85 simply tips it over the edge. Or the car is old enough to not have fuel system components that are resistant to ethanol.

Getting water in the tank is a minor, rare case. All modern cars have sealed fuel tanks that are vented back to the intake through a computer controlled valve actuated by a 'purge solenoid'. If E85 is left exposed to open air it is noticeably degraded after 6 months. If you need to store it, use a sealed container that is approved for E85.

Wikipedia always has good info;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol..._United_States
Dave W. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-05-2013, 03:05 AM   #15
BuraQ
Colonel
 
BuraQ's Avatar
 
Drives: 11" E92 335is
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Florida

Posts: 2,850
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335is  [2.88]
Does the N54 run better running E20 / E30 / E40 ?

Yes, there are numerous reports, and the data logs to prove it

Is it bad for your fueling system ?

Dont leave it sit in your tank idle for days, if the car is a DD then you will be ok. Every other month flush out the concentrated E85 by filling up with "oxygenated" race gas that has no ethonal. Make sure to run your E85 mix to less than 10 mpg before filling up

Most important, if you are going to continue to use E85 mixes invest in a flex fuel LPFP for peace of mind http://www.protuningfreaks.com/walbr...ump-f90000267/

Please keep in mind that Brazil uses E20 fuel in the same BMWs with the same parts, etc. Nothing different

WOT your cars atleast 3 times a weeks

E85 is, IMO, for enthusiast drivers, in these cars, not pimp cool moe dee driving who like to just cruise. If your going to be like this then run regular gas

Just my two cents take it or leave it.
__________________
AP-V3 & Cobb Protuned by PTF: (New Times Coming Soon)
RENNtech Tuning: 11.78 ET @ 116 Mph in 1/4 mile YouTube
Dinan Stage 3: 12.5 ET (Best) 111 Mph (Best) in 1/4 mile
400+ launches, 3 Driveshafts, No DCT Slippage, Flash Only
BuraQ is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-05-2013, 11:19 AM   #16
Killerfish2012
Major
 
Drives: E90 335I, E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Midwest

Posts: 1,156
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fully_Bolted View Post
__________________
E90 335I: FBO +wavetrac LSD
E92 M3: K&N, V1, Yokohama AD08
Killerfish2012 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-05-2013, 11:34 AM   #17
bulldog x6
Major General
 
Drives: x6 panzer
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: probably work

Posts: 5,017
iTrader: (28)

^ lol
bulldog x6 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:37 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST