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      01-13-2013, 05:25 AM   #67
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Makes me sad thinking of the potential this car could have with RWD, now wasted on FWD. Why dont bmw just buy Opel? Could probably Get it cheap now. Then they can sell all the FWDs they want, and really give vw, kia, Renault and all the others a run for the money. Its german based , have many loyal consumers that are sick of GM, and have a motivated workforce that will be a perfect match for bmw.
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      01-13-2013, 08:06 AM   #68
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Somehow I don't think BMW is that interested in the opinion of someone whose car is now 3 generations old. I don't mean to attack you or make you feel bad for driving an E46, but you are not "the sole character of their brand" and as far as they're concerned you're not likely to be interested in buying the Z2 anyways, so why would they design it to make you happy?

This car would be aimed at the TT's slice of the market, and almost no one looking at a TT is interested in handling at the limit or even anywhere near the limit, weight balance and the added control of rear wheel drive are meaningless to this type of buyer so to them a FWD Z2 would be cheaper, lighter, more fuel efficient, maybe even quicker in a straight line thanks to lower drivetrain losses, and would have more space inside without a transmission and driveshaft running down the middle of the car.
Wow! An epiphany for BMW! Frontwheeldrive (which loads 60% of the car's weight over the front axle) leaves more space inside the cabin. Man, who'da thunk that? Maybe the ghost of Sir Alec Issigonis has been haunting those BMW engineers ever since BMW bought Mini. Or maybe it's just that good British food.

I guess everyone at BMW that worked there 30 years ago must have died. A FWD BMW is laughible. Oh but wait, there is the X6M too.

We already have a lot of roomy, great front wheel drive cars on the market from our friends in Asia (can you spell reliability?). So maybe the Chevy Citation wasn't such a bad idea after all.

BMW, thanks, but No Thanks...
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      01-13-2013, 09:14 AM   #69
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No, what a shame to BMW! FWD will never be as fun to drive as RWD!
Also the price will not be so low vs the other fwd cars so I don't see the point of this concept!
If Toyota/Subaru released an awesome RWD car for enthusiasts, why BMW would take the opposite way?!
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      01-13-2013, 09:17 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by vasmir View Post
Yep, sales figures don't lie!
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bmw-de...3#.UPIFUKVtI70

As long as some of that money being made goes to M vehicles and future super cars, all the better.
That will never happen. The extra money BMW will get, they will not spend on M vehicles and supercars, they will spend it on other ways of making even more money. And this will go on and on, other wise we would already have our Z2 and our M10 today. It is already a decade BMW is promissing us these cars. But that is just to keep us dreaming and buy their current cars until those we are craving for come. But they'll never come. BMW's supercar (a.k.a R8 rival) is the i8 Coupé and BMW's small fun-car (a.k.a GT86 rival) is the i3 Coupé. That is all we'll ever get.

I hope they get the M2 and M4 right, that is all about I care.
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      01-13-2013, 09:53 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
That will never happen. The extra money BMW will get, they will not spend on M vehicles and supercars, they will spend it on other ways of making even more money. And this will go on and on, other wise we would already have our Z2 and our M10 today. It is already a decade BMW is promissing us these cars. But that is just to keep us dreaming and buy their current cars until those we are craving for come. But they'll never come. BMW's supercar (a.k.a R8 rival) is the i8 Coupé and BMW's small fun-car (a.k.a GT86 rival) is the i3 Coupé. That is all we'll ever get.

I hope they get the M2 and M4 right, that is all about I care.
One thing you and many others have overlooked is the demands of the markets and sports cars are not great sellers you may point to the manufactures who have one model in this category but it might help one manufacturer because of the huge back up of resources available , but the other ? How has it helped when your value is not what it used to be.

Given the volatile markets and demand for specific vehicles it is more a priority to focus on what the market demands and in the case of the global market it is premium compact cars and more SAV models of all segments. Due to the advent of extensive architecture development and modular sharing these become cost effective to produce they also make money which in BMW's case is important to keep the company independent.

In the luxury market we have to look at the premium sedan which is now outsold by the premium SAV , whilst premium coupes are also declining in favour of more flexible four door premium coupes , yet the ultra-luxury segment of limousines and coupe models are thriving that is why it makes more sense to have a RR coupe rather than a new BMW coupe 2dr flagship. The BMW 6er is the modern equivalent of the E31 BMW 850i.

There will be a BMW sports car but it is not a priority at this time , there are many aspects to make it work cost effectively for a company like BMW but these will not come into effect until 2015. You might argue that companies are doing this already with CFRP and yes you will be right but not at the cost BMW will be able to do by 2015. Because of serious investment into in-house production.

Last year alone in Europe premium compact cars decimated mainstream volume manufacturers. Customers are shown in volatile economic situations to downsize without sacrificing luxury or big-car features. The new compact BMW class will take advantage of this as the MINI has already done. It will also extend the branch of first time BMW ownership which is the goal of any product to entice would-be customers to their brand.
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      01-13-2013, 10:09 AM   #72
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OMG people, again?!?!

FWD BMW's are coming, get over it!

Everyone that is bitching about this should go drive a Mini Cooper S around an Auto-X track. Once this task is completed, you will most likely STFU about it...

BMW = Mini
Mini = FWD
Mini = Fantastic

Therefore a FWD BMW will be Fantastic

If your not in the market for one, then don't even look at them, or waste your time complaining about them, its going to happen, they will sell and there is nothing you can do about it...
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      01-13-2013, 10:18 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
OMG people, again?!?!

FWD BMW's are coming, get over it!

Everyone that is bitching about this should go drive a Mini Cooper S around an Auto-X track. Once this task is completed, you will most likely STFU about it...

BMW = Mini
Mini = FWD
Mini = Fantastic

Therefore a FWD BMW will be Fantastic

If your not in the market for one, then don't even look at them, or waste your time complaining about them, its going to happen, they will sell and there is nothing you can do about it...
Yes great handling is easy in a FWD platform at low engine power and short wheel base. Go see what happens to handling when the wheel base gets up over 108 inches and high horsepower.
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      01-13-2013, 10:31 AM   #74
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FWD nnnaaa not for me... :
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      01-13-2013, 10:35 AM   #75
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I'm pretty sure the FWD Z car won't be sold in the USA, so half the people in this thread can just chill out anyway.

I'm no fan of FWD personally, but the Mini is very good to drive and it's weird how much it still feels like a BMW to drive. I think it's also true that a large proportion of the general population will be able to drive a FWD closer to it's limits than a RWD, and therefore have more fun, which (apart from the sales race) is the name of the game.

On balance I'm okay with a small FWD roadster from BMW, however, if a small affordable RWD roadster, and a fire-breathing large M roadster (to compliment the M3 GTS powered Z4 GT3 race car), remain absent from the range, then I'll agree BMW's priorities are being skewed to much by the sales race.

Audi's been flogging its FWD TT for years now. People on here that say a FWD BMW roadster wouldn't sell need to open the eyes and look around.
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      01-13-2013, 10:40 AM   #76
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      01-13-2013, 12:19 PM   #77
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Quote:
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This is the biggest bunch of BS I have read in a long time. FWD car that drives like a BMW? So all the marketing BMW has shove down our throats about RWD being the Ultimate Driving Machine is nothing but lies?

This is nothing but a bean counter, brand dilution move by BMW. The Finance and MBA guys are taking over. I know they still will offer RWD cars, but these FWD cars are not "true" to the brand, and this is not good. Alienate enthusiasts and in the long run BMW will suffer. I remember reading articles about Honda losing its way/mojo, well it feels like BMW is following the same path.
Agree. I suggest BMW needs to create a new brand for FWD cars, sitting between MINI and BMW, to avoid diluting the BMW brand. They could use an older brand they already own from the Rover days such as Triumph or Riley.

The other side of the story also needs considering. How big should a MINI be? The current MINI is large enough and anything larger is too big to be a real Mini. Again more brand dilution. The Countryman is far too large and stretches the MINI brand too far. They need a new middle brand.

I agree with you completely. Although I understand (and support) that BMW is doing this in order to survive, the BMW brand should remain EXCLUSIVE. I'd like the idea of a fresh, hot, but affordable "exotic" new British car, the way Mini/Fiat was when it came back, and the way Alfa Romeo will be when it comes Stateside. I think the American public (and the world at large) would react quite well to Austin-Haley/Triumph/Rover's return, but well engineered, reliable and with true BMW driving dynamics. That way BMW stays exclusive, but is able to retain their independence and make tons of money.

Think about it, Cadillac has Chevy, Audi has Volkswagen, Lexus has Toyota, but BMW only has Mini, which can only be stretched so far. BMW AG needs a "common" brand like that to boost its sales, keep core enthusiasts loyal, and stop them from being bought out or going bankrupt.
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      01-13-2013, 12:27 PM   #78
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We will very soon see a FWD 3- series. If it is ok to FWD a roadster certainly a common sedan will qualify. Maybe bmw will get rid of 50 50 weight distributions too, who needs that...
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      01-13-2013, 01:30 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
One thing you and many others have overlooked is the demands of the markets and sports cars are not great sellers you may point to the manufactures who have one model in this category but it might help one manufacturer because of the huge back up of resources available , but the other ? How has it helped when your value is not what it used to be.

Given the volatile markets and demand for specific vehicles it is more a priority to focus on what the market demands and in the case of the global market it is premium compact cars and more SAV models of all segments. Due to the advent of extensive architecture development and modular sharing these become cost effective to produce they also make money which in BMW's case is important to keep the company independent.

In the luxury market we have to look at the premium sedan which is now outsold by the premium SAV , whilst premium coupes are also declining in favour of more flexible four door premium coupes , yet the ultra-luxury segment of limousines and coupe models are thriving that is why it makes more sense to have a RR coupe rather than a new BMW coupe 2dr flagship. The BMW 6er is the modern equivalent of the E31 BMW 850i.

There will be a BMW sports car but it is not a priority at this time , there are many aspects to make it work cost effectively for a company like BMW but these will not come into effect until 2015. You might argue that companies are doing this already with CFRP and yes you will be right but not at the cost BMW will be able to do by 2015. Because of serious investment into in-house production.

Last year alone in Europe premium compact cars decimated mainstream volume manufacturers. Customers are shown in volatile economic situations to downsize without sacrificing luxury or big-car features. The new compact BMW class will take advantage of this as the MINI has already done. It will also extend the branch of first time BMW ownership which is the goal of any product to entice would-be customers to their brand.
Could you shut the **** up and think for a minute before throwing all this marketing BS on people on this forum? I used to like you.. not so much now. Look we know that BMW is trying to stay in the game for the longest possible but ever since you started writing this marketing BS on here, almost everybody argues with you. Now do you honestly think that this marketing scheme is working for you? at least on this forum? Personally I've never cared about BMW being number 1 on the sales chart. All I see now on the road is 30-40 year old moms driving an F30 like its a camry think about what a cheap-ass FWD BMW might do to the brand image.
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BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      01-13-2013, 01:34 PM   #80
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I'm pretty sure the FWD Z car won't be sold in the USA, so half the people in this thread can just chill out anyway.

I'm no fan of FWD personally, but the Mini is very good to drive and it's weird how much it still feels like a BMW to drive. I think it's also true that a large proportion of the general population will be able to drive a FWD closer to it's limits than a RWD, and therefore have more fun, which (apart from the sales race) is the name of the game.

On balance I'm okay with a small FWD roadster from BMW, however, if a small affordable RWD roadster, and a fire-breathing large M roadster (to compliment the M3 GTS powered Z4 GT3 race car), remain absent from the range, then I'll agree BMW's priorities are being skewed to much by the sales race.

Audi's been flogging its FWD TT for years now. People on here that say a FWD BMW roadster wouldn't sell need to open the eyes and look around.
I think you are right about it not being sold in the US. I know in Europe you can get BMW's that are much more plebeian/less luxurious, so I think a car like this would be more acceptable for that market. By the way, I don't believe Audi sells a FWD TT in the US market. It is sold AWD only in the US.
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      01-13-2013, 01:51 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
I think you are right about it not being sold in the US. I know in Europe you can get BMW's that are much more plebeian/less luxurious, so I think a car like this would be more acceptable for that market. By the way, I don't believe Audi sells a FWD TT in the US market. It is sold AWD only in the US.
Well, it's true there's a difference in the perception of the brand and how accessible it is between the US and Europe. Over there in the US you only seem to get the higher engine choices, yet I don't think it's as cheap to get behind the wheel of a BMW anywhere else in the world. Over here, even a small engined 3 series makes for an expensive car. I think this is the reason why Europe will tolerate a lot more, because (common though BMW's are), even the cheaper plebein/less luxurious cars are relatively expensive (compared to brands like Ford/VW/Toyota/Vauxhall(Opel)/Mazda etc. etc).

It's almost beyond logic why we do shell out as much money as we do for the lower-end premium offerings over here, given the value for money offered by the more mainstream manufacturers... so long as whatever product BMW slap their badge on is premium in at least more than it's price point, I don't think this trend will ever go away.
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      01-13-2013, 02:02 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
Everyone that is bitching about this should go drive a Mini Cooper S around an Auto-X track. Once this task is completed, you will most likely STFU about it...

BMW = Mini
Mini = FWD
Mini = Fantastic

Therefore a FWD BMW will be Fantastic
I don't believe you'll change your E46, probably the best BMW ever, for a FWD BMW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majdnoon View Post
Think about it, Cadillac has Chevy, Audi has Volkswagen, Lexus has Toyota, but BMW only has Mini, which can only be stretched so far. BMW AG needs a "common" brand like that to boost its sales, keep core enthusiasts loyal, and stop them from being bought out or going bankrupt.
BMW had such a brand. It was called Rover and had alot of potential being up there against VW, Toyota, Ford etc. As you can see they failed, and Roewe is now Chinese.

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All I see now on the road is 30-40 year old moms driving an F30 like its a Camry.



Same goes for Mercedes. And now even Maserati is going the sales direction.
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      01-13-2013, 02:15 PM   #83
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I love this topic!! BMW you will have to face it you are not building the ultimate driving machine anymore. As a 1m owner I have one of the best driver focus car you have been building recently. I was looking or a f30 as a good daily driver I wasn't expecting it to be as good as my 1m but I never imagine that it could be that bad. In Canada a 320i is 11000$ above a accord sport price and there is no way to justify it. Greenpeace-frendly n20 sound worst than honda's 4cyl it doesn't drive better And it is probably not as reliable. So bmw until you start building the ultimate driving machine again(which doesn't seem to be in a near future) I will probably looks somewhere else for next car.
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      01-13-2013, 02:20 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph
BMW.... I am disappoint. When BMW sells 2 million cars will they stop whoring out to FWD or is this something we are going to have to get used to?

What I don't get is that this is going to be a low-volume seller, so its unlikely this was done to increase the economy of scale for the UKL platform. I have also never heard anyone say "Damn if only that sports car was FWD I would buy it", so its not like there is a demand for it. BMW needs to realize that people buy sports cars to be sporty, not because of their efficiency, practicality, or space.

And Scott their is literally no way any engineer has made a FWD car act like a RWD car in every situation. The only thing that can be done is decrease on power understeer, but there is literally no way in hell they have made it oversteer on power without creating other serious problems (i.e. having bicycle sized rear tires and a seriously strange suspension set up and even then I am not sure its possible).
Actually, here in Chicago, I know quite a few people who would buy a FWD BMW because they don't want to deal with swapping out tires. Having been stuck in snow-filled allies and watching Honda Civics leave their parking spaces without a problem, I get it. I would consider switching from my Z4 to a smaller car because it's not like I am driving around Chicago streets like a RWD roadster should be driven anyway.

I went from a TT to my Z4 not because of the handling--in fact, theTT felt lighter on its feet--but for BMW's superior suspension and engine. When I had the FWD TT, I never had an issue in the snow even with all-season tires.

I think it's funny when people think they know what other consumers should buy with their money. Though I'm enthusiast, most of my friends and family just want good looking, reliable, and luxurious cars. I guess that's why most of them drive Lexuses.
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      01-13-2013, 02:28 PM   #85
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Actually, here in Chicago, I know quite a few people who would buy a FWD BMW because they don't want to deal with swapping out tires. Having been stuck in snow-filled allies and watching Honda Civics leave their parking spaces without a problem, I get it. I would consider switching from my Z4 to a smaller car because it's not like I am driving around Chicago streets like a RWD roadster should be driven anyway.

I went from a TT to my Z4 not because of the handling--in fact, theTT felt lighter on its feet--but for BMW's superior suspension and engine. When I had the FWD TT, I never had an issue in the snow even with all-season tires.

I think it's funny when people think they know what other consumers should buy with their money. Though I'm enthusiast, most of my friends and family just want good looking, reliable, and luxurious cars. I guess that's why most of them drive Lexuses.
^This is a very good point. I know people that have NOT gone for a BMW because it's RWD.
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      01-13-2013, 02:36 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
I don't believe you'll change your E46, probably the best BMW ever, for a FWD BMW.
Nope, my e46 will be mine forever... I'm not in the market for a FWD roadster, so I don't really care if it comes in FWD or RWD, but, again, they are coming and there is nothing you can do about it. Why make a big deal about it?

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Yes great handling is easy in a FWD platform at low engine power and short wheel base. Go see what happens to handling when the wheel base gets up over 108 inches and high horsepower.
What do you expect out of the Z2? 550hp? 130inch wheelbase? lol I think them saying FWD was the first indication to me that it would have (at max) about the same power as a JCW Mini... It will probably be about the same (if not exactly the same) wheelbase too... I'm pretty sure they are planning to build these cars off of the same platform...
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      01-13-2013, 04:09 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Jay60642 View Post
I think it's funny when people think they know what other consumers should buy with their money. Though I'm enthusiast, most of my friends and family just want good looking, reliable, and luxurious cars. I guess that's why most of them drive Lexuses.
I think it's funny Lexuses now handle better than BMWs. Clientel swap?
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      01-13-2013, 04:15 PM   #88
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Everyone in this discussion thread is overlooking Obama's new fuel economy regulations coming to the US, BMW's largest market. They will drastically impact the cars available on the market whether we like it or not.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pre...ency+Standards
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