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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > Audio Table of Contents: Upgrading? Start HERE!



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      12-19-2012, 04:55 AM   #45
PR3CI5N
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A lot of useful info. Thx
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      01-06-2013, 03:16 PM   #46
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Someone should make a subwoofer section...
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      02-08-2013, 11:10 AM   #47
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Excellent information, thanks for compiling all of this into one thread!
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      02-16-2013, 01:10 PM   #48
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I didn't know where else to put this. I need some feedback and suggestion for improvement. The purpose of the chart is to help guide people in the right direction depending on their desired outcome for the upgrade. We have a lot of info here, but I don't believe someone can find a particular upgrade path very easily based on what their individual goals are. Anyhow, this is just a first draft so let me know how you like it and what changes you would make. Thanks!
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      02-16-2013, 01:22 PM   #49
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Excellent work! I'm sure it will help newbies.

If you have time, you should do something for subwoofers. You've tried most methods so i'm sure you would come up with a great piece.
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      02-16-2013, 01:54 PM   #50
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Very Nice

Very Nice That sums up the sound issues nicely and offer a flavor chart.
I wish we could get something like this for upgrading the head unit and or adding things like usb an a2dp and/or for the coding them in for functioning and the associated problems and errors. OEM versus add on modules like the Dension's or blackberrys.
Also the Adding subs thread would still be good.
I wonder if a moderator would grant sticky privileges to some of the more active members for this.

Also are you going to have another for the other system's? What about side effects such as PDC volume.
Model year related problems.
Any way to add a scale to how much change to expect
1to10 next to g for good.

Last edited by ctuna; 02-16-2013 at 02:00 PM.
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      02-23-2013, 12:18 PM   #51
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My car (2009 328i E90) has stock hifi speakers and came with the bmw professional radio head unit. I want to make the sound system sound better. I plan to add the JL XD600/6 6 channel amp, use Audiocontrol center 6 Ch line converter to link the OEM amp to the new Amp. I will be using a 4G amp kit and RCA. Do I need your harness ?
I do not want to replace the factory Amp but instead improve it using the JL aftermarket Amp basically not messing with the fibre optic system already in the car. Please does this makes sense? Am i on the right track here? I am in Canada and it is hard to get any help here.
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      02-23-2013, 01:51 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaypops View Post
My car (2009 328i E90) has stock hifi speakers and came with the bmw professional radio head unit. I want to make the sound system sound better. I plan to add the JL XD600/6 6 channel amp, use Audiocontrol center 6 Ch line converter to link the OEM amp to the new Amp. I will be using a 4G amp kit and RCA. Do I need your harness ?
I do not want to replace the factory Amp but instead improve it using the JL aftermarket Amp basically not messing with the fibre optic system already in the car. Please does this makes sense? Am i on the right track here? I am in Canada and it is hard to get any help here.
If you have hifi, you do not have a fiber (MOST) connection to the amp. If you have hifi, you can pull out the OEM amp, use a technic harness and drop in the 600/6 and it will be completely reversible. please confirm whether you have hifi (no center speaker) or top hifi/logic 7 (with center speaker).
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      02-23-2013, 02:23 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
If you have hifi, you do not have a fiber (MOST) connection to the amp. If you have hifi, you can pull out the OEM amp, use a technic harness and drop in the 600/6 and it will be completely reversible. please confirm whether you have hifi (no center speaker) or top hifi/logic 7 (with center speaker).
I did a vin check on my car and my car has the Hifi (S676A HIFI LAUTSPRECHERSYSTEM HiFi speaker system) sound system not logic 7. Will i still need a line converter (audiocontrol center-DSP).
If technic's harness will work what do I need to buy? JL amp, Technic's Harness and a line converter?
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      02-23-2013, 03:21 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaypops View Post
I did a vin check on my car and my car has the Hifi (S676A HIFI LAUTSPRECHERSYSTEM HiFi speaker system) sound system not logic 7. Will i still need a line converter (audiocontrol center-DSP).
If technic's harness will work what do I need to buy? JL amp, Technic's Harness and a line converter?
Just the harness and the amp..signal is already flat/low level.

Time to PM technic! (or VP electricity for a one-stop shop)
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      02-23-2013, 04:36 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Just the harness and the amp..signal is already flat/low level.

Time to PM technic! (or VP electricity for a one-stop shop)
Thanks ..I will PM Technic right away
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      03-18-2013, 10:37 PM   #56
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Hi all, I'm a regular poster at Bimmerfest but this forum has a lot of great audio info on it so I joined up . Thanks to everyone who contributed, what a wealth of info!

Could someone please help me understand why some opt for a DSP such as the MS-8, others opt for an amp, and lastly some get both? While I understand which each does individually, I am still trying to grasp all of the audio knowledge. I apologize if this has been asked but I swear I've searched and looked through page and page of info to the point where my head is about to explode.
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      03-18-2013, 11:24 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sight View Post
Hi all, I'm a regular poster at Bimmerfest but this forum has a lot of great audio info on it so I joined up . Thanks to everyone who contributed, what a wealth of info!

Could someone please help me understand why some opt for a DSP such as the MS-8, others opt for an amp, and lastly some get both? While I understand which each does individually, I am still trying to grasp all of the audio knowledge. I apologize if this has been asked but I swear I've searched and looked through page and page of info to the point where my head is about to explode.
An MS-8 is a low-power amp AND a DSP. It can drive a stock 4 and a tweeter about the same as a Logic 7/HK amp can.

If you are starting with base Stereo, the MS-8 does signal correction.

If you are starting with Top HiFi, it does summing.

But it always does acoustic self-adjusted optimization.

Now that Andy W is no longer at JBL, I have less problem saying this in public: The MS-8 has been a huge disappointment for us, we don't sell it actively any longer, we have had too many fail, we have had too many Bluetooth echo problems. We no longer use DSP in our Level One, Two, or Three systems other than in base Stereo situations, and in those systems we use other means of signal correction.

DSP as it's being used by the MS-8, the H800, the P-DSP, etc., is a way to perform several acoustic processes with minimal sonic side effects:

- Equalization
- Delaying the signal in time to compensate for different speaker distances
- crossover filtering by amp channel that uses steeper attenuation slopes than are possible in most amps
- channel-by-channel output level adjustments

The time is actually a bigger deal than the EQ.

Andy and JBL were of the opinion that DSPing a crappy speaker could make it sound like a great one. If this were true, we'd all have active-suspension cars by now, I'm afraid.
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      03-19-2013, 11:12 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
An MS-8 is a low-power amp AND a DSP. It can drive a stock 4 and a tweeter about the same as a Logic 7/HK amp can.

If you are starting with base Stereo, the MS-8 does signal correction.

If you are starting with Top HiFi, it does summing.

But it always does acoustic self-adjusted optimization.

Now that Andy W is no longer at JBL, I have less problem saying this in public: The MS-8 has been a huge disappointment for us, we don't sell it actively any longer, we have had too many fail, we have had too many Bluetooth echo problems. We no longer use DSP in our Level One, Two, or Three systems other than in base Stereo situations, and in those systems we use other means of signal correction.

DSP as it's being used by the MS-8, the H800, the P-DSP, etc., is a way to perform several acoustic processes with minimal sonic side effects:

- Equalization
- Delaying the signal in time to compensate for different speaker distances
- crossover filtering by amp channel that uses steeper attenuation slopes than are possible in most amps
- channel-by-channel output level adjustments

The time is actually a bigger deal than the EQ.

Andy and JBL were of the opinion that DSPing a crappy speaker could make it sound like a great one. If this were true, we'd all have active-suspension cars by now, I'm afraid.
Wow, thanks. That was very helpful. I have the Hi-Fi system so I'm assuming that an amp with some nice speakers is the way to go? If true, it comes down to budgeting cost vs. quality

Edit: I read in another thread that E92s are hard to fit with speakers and most of the thread data seems to be out of date re:speakers with most people having a mish-mash of different ones...

Last edited by Last Sight; 03-19-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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      03-19-2013, 06:14 PM   #59
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How recently had andy left jbl?? Why?
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      03-19-2013, 07:18 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
How recently had andy left jbl?? Why?
About a week ago or so. There's a post over at DIYMA, but no reason as to why he left Harman.
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      03-19-2013, 08:11 PM   #61
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I think the reason Logic 7 people get an ms-8 is

They have 9 channels to amp and they already have logic 7 surround
sound so with 8 channels it provides a way to amp all there speakers and still have the surround sound. Now that there is a mobridge da2 the need for this
is not as great.
DSPing a crappy underpowered speaker shouldn't this be a Bose patent infringment.
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      03-19-2013, 08:53 PM   #62
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Is there a list of current speakers that fit an E9x (I have an E92)? Everything I've found is outdated consisting primarily of discontinued speakers it's been like this: trying to find a list of speakers that fit (Admittedly, it could be because I'm new to this too). Focal 100s and a select few seem to be about the only thing still in production that's commonly mentioned on this forum.
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      03-19-2013, 11:54 PM   #63
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So are you guys suggesting that L7 owners use an amp and harness now? If so, which one?
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      03-20-2013, 12:19 AM   #64
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If you like L7 mobridge da-2 preamp +

If you like L7 mobridge da-2 preamp +
amps and speakers to your tastes.
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      03-23-2013, 08:38 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sight View Post
Is there a list of current speakers that fit an E9x (I have an E92)? Everything I've found is outdated consisting primarily of discontinued speakers it's been like this: trying to find a list of speakers that fit (Admittedly, it could be because I'm new to this too). Focal 100s and a select few seem to be about the only thing still in production that's commonly mentioned on this forum.
I am looking for the same info as well the only brand Ive been able to find who still makes 4in comp set and is sold locally to me is Maestro.
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      04-13-2013, 01:01 PM   #66
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Rough draft for your subwoofer section:

Subwoofer Locations:

1.) Under Seats.
The enclosures under the seats can be outfitted with specialized aftermarket subwoofers (Earthquake SWS-8) that are capable of decent low-end output. Don’t expect “earth-shaking” bass, but most people seem to be satisfied with the results from this upgrade. The Earthquakes do well with 100 – 150W per channel. They can be run mono, but a stereo signal will give better separation in the mid-bass range. Speaking of mid-bass, these speakers don’t handle this part of the spectrum particularly well. If you’re planning on upgrading to a trunk sub, you’re better off installing dedicated mid-bass speakers in this location.

Example of SWS-8 Installation:



2.) In Trunk.
The trunk itself is a “sealed” enclosure. Think of it as a large metal box sitting in your living room, and then placing the subwoofer enclosure inside of it. It is going to be difficult to get any appreciable output outside the metal box from any subwoofer set-up inside it because the metal box (trunk) is so well insulated from the factory. Thankfully, a phenomenon called cabin gain helps a great deal in amplifying the output of the subwoofer so that it can still get plenty loud inside the passenger cabin of the car. However, there are side effects. The more powerful the subwoofer set-up, the more the trunk panels will want to vibrate. This results in annoying rattles. These rattles can be heard inside the car, but also outside. There may also be a problem with the gas cap spring mechanism becoming damaged from excessive vibrations of the gas cap door.

In order to allow more sound to enter into the cabin, you can open up the ski-hole if your car is equipped with it, or you can fold down the seats, which may not be very practical however.

With the above in mind, there are three different types of trunk set-ups you can choose from:

a) Inside the storage area below trunk floor (not possible in 335 and M3 models). A 8 or 10” subwoofer and a custom enclosure can be fitted into the storage area. The advantage of this set-up is the usage of dead space, and that it is completely invisible. The disadvantage is that the output of the subwoofer is somewhat muffled by the trunk floor lid.

Example of Subwoofer in storage area:



b) A standard subwoofer enclosure placed on the trunk floor. The enclosure itself can be “off the shelf” or a custom-built solution. The subwoofers can be faced toward the back of the trunk, or toward the cabin (results are usually better with the subs facing towards the rear). The disadvantages are the loss of trunk space, and excessive rattles. The advantage is the simplicity and the capability to produce a lot of “bang for your buck”.

Example of standard subwoofer enclosure in trunk:



c) A corner-loaded enclosure. The sub enclosure is “molded” into one of the trunk rear corners using fiberglass. The advantages of this set-up are efficiency and space savings. It hardly takes up any trunk space and the corner-loading effect “amplifies” the output of the single subwoofer to make it significantly louder than the same subwoofer in a standard enclosure. The other welcome side effects of this set-up are that it produces very little rattles and that the bass very easily blends with the front stage. Most sound quality oriented people prefer this type of set-up.

Example of corner-loaded enclosure:



3. Behind Back Seat (Infinite Baffle).
Here we place a subwoofer inside one of the walls of the metal box we call the trunk. The trunk becomes the enclosure. Using the proper subwoofer driver(s), this type of set-up can result in excellent sound quality, while requiring very little amplifier power, and producing the least amount of rattles. A good IB install will require very little EQ to have a relatively flat response between 20 and 100Hz.

Example of infinite baffle (IB) install:




Integration into Stock Audio System:

This assumes that no other audio upgrades are being done and that the subwoofer and amp are the only changes you are making to the stock system.

1. Base Audio:
You will have to tap into the full-range speaker level outputs of the Head Unit. The best place to do this is at the connection for the underseat woofers. The best method of doing it is to use a Technic harness connector as pictured below. No splicing, no cutting, fully reversible:



The signal can then be fed into an aftermarket amp via the high-level (or speaker level) inputs, if so equipped, or through an external LOC (line output converter), which will then give you a low-level signal via RCA for connection to the amp.

You will then need a switched 12V “remote” or “turn-on” signal for the aftermarket amp(s). If you are using an external LOC, make sure you get one with remote out, so you don’t need to worry about getting the remote signal elsewhere. If you don’t have that option, the most appropriate source is pin 13 at the back of the OEM head unit. You will need to run a wire from there to the amp location in the trunk. As an alternate, people have also used the cigarette lighter wiring, as well as the satellite radio fan wiring (which is conveniently located under the trunk floor, if you have it). As always, any splicing of OEM wiring is at your own risk!

2. HiFi & Logic 7:
The HiFi & L7 amps have dedicated, low-passed subwoofer outputs. The amps are located in the rear left corner of the trunk, under the gray plastic cover. You need to tap into these outputs, and feed them into a LOC (line output converter) which will convert the high level signal into low level signal so your aftermarket amp can use it. Some amps have built-in signal converters, but they rarely are designed for the relatively strong outputs of the HiFi, and especially the L7 amps. The last thing you want is damage your amp so always use external LOCs.

If available, always try to use forum member Technic’s add-on harnesses, which make the connections a snap and everything is fully reversible. He uses only the highest-quality LOCs, with built-in remote level outputs.

Technic HiFi Harness:



Technic Logic 7 Harness:

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Last edited by kaigoss69; 04-13-2013 at 06:15 PM.
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