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      01-13-2013, 04:25 PM   #89
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I don't know if this has been discussed before but the main reason for going FWD is because they already had a platform with the MINI so there wouldn't any additional costs. Would it be possible for BMW to make the MINI a RWD car or is the relatively small body/chassis preventing such a thing from happening?
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      01-13-2013, 05:30 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
One thing you and many others have overlooked is the demands of the markets and sports cars are not great sellers you may point to the manufactures who have one model in this category but it might help one manufacturer because of the huge back up of resources available , but the other ? How has it helped when your value is not what it used to be.

Given the volatile markets and demand for specific vehicles it is more a priority to focus on what the market demands and in the case of the global market it is premium compact cars and more SAV models of all segments. Due to the advent of extensive architecture development and modular sharing these become cost effective to produce they also make money which in BMW's case is important to keep the company independent.

In the luxury market we have to look at the premium sedan which is now outsold by the premium SAV , whilst premium coupes are also declining in favour of more flexible four door premium coupes , yet the ultra-luxury segment of limousines and coupe models are thriving that is why it makes more sense to have a RR coupe rather than a new BMW coupe 2dr flagship. The BMW 6er is the modern equivalent of the E31 BMW 850i.

There will be a BMW sports car but it is not a priority at this time , there are many aspects to make it work cost effectively for a company like BMW but these will not come into effect until 2015. You might argue that companies are doing this already with CFRP and yes you will be right but not at the cost BMW will be able to do by 2015. Because of serious investment into in-house production.

Last year alone in Europe premium compact cars decimated mainstream volume manufacturers. Customers are shown in volatile economic situations to downsize without sacrificing luxury or big-car features. The new compact BMW class will take advantage of this as the MINI has already done. It will also extend the branch of first time BMW ownership which is the goal of any product to entice would-be customers to their brand.
Scott the lack of demand for sports cars is a marketing thing. You have to make people want the sports cars. Just letting them sell themselves like BMW does with the 3,5, and 7 won't work. This is because barely any sports car purchases are done rationally. Therefore sports cars must be marketed heavily. And not in a logos way, but using pathos. Jaguar understands this and have done a fantastic job marketing the F-Type, and I guarantee you they will be rewarded for their efforts. BMW seems to not even want to try. The last time I saw an ad for the Z4 was the art one right after it was released over 4 years ago. Then ya'll act surprised when it doesn't sell well. Another problem is that many dealers do not have Z4's in stock, and when they do they are way off to the side. Instead they should be the first car you see going into the dealership. Because they are the best representation of the brands values in design, engineering, and quality.

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      01-13-2013, 06:51 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
Scott the lack of demand for sports cars is a marketing thing. You have to make people want the sports cars. Just letting them sell themselves like BMW does with the 3,5, and 7 won't work. This is because barely any sports car purchases are done rationally. Therefore sports cars must be marketed heavily. And not in a logos way, but using pathos. Jaguar understands this and have done a fantastic job marketing the F-Type, and I guarantee you they will be rewarded for their efforts. BMW seems to not even want to try. The last time I saw an ad for the Z4 was the art one right after it was released over 4 years ago. Then ya'll act surprised when it doesn't sell well. Another problem is that many dealers do not have Z4's in stock, and when they do they are way off to the side. Instead they should be the first car you see going into the dealership. Because they are the best representation of the brands values in design, engineering, and quality.
So true. Some body styles (e.g. roadsters), some models (e.g. M models), some specific cars (e.g. E46 M3 CSL, E92 M3 GTS, 1M) are not developed and marketed by BMW because they make pure straightforward commercial sense, even if they don't make BMW lose money in absolute, they make less sense than most regular models to engineer, produce and sell so why everyone raves about these type of cars even years after their production ends? Because they are the ones which hit the jackpot, the ones who make most people consider BMW badge and its usually higher price tag vs. competition as justified, that's why. They make every other BMW model sell more, as long as clients believe that there is something essential in common with those halo models, so that a BMW salesman can argue that an X1 or X3 makes sense to purchase even if they don't offer best interior space or price/performance, he can claim that because it has typical BMW driving dynamics price is justified. That's the single most important thing a company which has been developing its brand image on sportiveness for generations can not afford to lose. Risking it this recklessly on a niche market like small roadster segment is plain suicidal behaviour.

Why do you think that Alfa Romeo is developing 4C and will bring it to US market too? In order to sell hundreds of thousands of them? Of course not, to sell all the other regular fwd models in big numbers and last time I checked it would be an affordable mid engine, superlight construction, RWD compact coupe and roadster, very expensive to develop but relatively affordable to buy. No other Alfa models will be mid engined or rwd, but with a few things shared with that breathtaking 4C most people will find excuses to buy a hatchback, sedan or crossover Alfa. Isn't this how it works in the auto industry? What really changed now?

Also does this mean that we might see M division will find itsef building fwd M-Performance or even "real" M models in the future like it already did with xdrives and diesels?
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      01-13-2013, 08:40 PM   #92
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Quote:
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^This is a very good point. I know people that have NOT gone for a BMW because it's RWD.
Are you guys serious? THis is a roadster we are talking about. I understand AWD for winter or daily driver, but this is a summer sports car
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      01-13-2013, 09:47 PM   #93
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Thumbs down FWD Z2???????what the fuxx

BMW has been well known making for fun car........now they are making a roadster in FWD???? so bloody disappointing.............they should leave FWD to Mini and all BMW should be strictly RWD......I don't know why they making this move......
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      01-13-2013, 09:53 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSTA
BMW has been well known making for fun car........now they are making a roadster in FWD???? so bloody disappointing.............they should leave FWD to Mini and all BMW should be strictly RWD......I don't know why they making this move......
Why ? Because it is all about making money. Period.
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      01-13-2013, 11:45 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The biggest issue of the UKL BMW was how to make this car drive like a BMW. Something the engineers have accomplished.
That is, until you press the gas pedal mid-turn.

Come on, Scott. You're not talking to the uninformed masses here. This is an enthusiast forum. It might be a great handling front-driver, but last I checked, BMW hasn't actually built a FWD car. Therefore, any front-drive car will not drive "like a BMW". I'm not saying BMW shouldn't do it, but cut the bullshit. It's FWD, and there's no way BMW has figured out how to break the laws of physics.
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      01-14-2013, 02:24 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
That is, until you press the gas pedal mid-turn.

Come on, Scott. You're not talking to the uninformed masses here. This is an enthusiast forum. It might be a great handling front-driver, but last I checked, BMW hasn't actually built a FWD car. Therefore, any front-drive car will not drive "like a BMW". I'm not saying BMW shouldn't do it, but cut the bullshit. It's FWD, and there's no way BMW has figured out how to break the laws of physics.
Yeah man

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      01-14-2013, 09:32 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
That is, until you press the gas pedal mid-turn.

Come on, Scott. You're not talking to the uninformed masses here. This is an enthusiast forum. It might be a great handling front-driver, but last I checked, BMW hasn't actually built a FWD car. Therefore, any front-drive car will not drive "like a BMW". I'm not saying BMW shouldn't do it, but cut the bullshit. It's FWD, and there's no way BMW has figured out how to break the laws of physics.
I am afraid they might add some electronic tricks to make you feel like it is driving like a BMW as well

Which at the end may result a car which is not even driving like a proper fwd despite being one!
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      01-14-2013, 09:56 AM   #98
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For a small car like this, FWD is the only sensible choice. This will be a great success. It will be light, efficient and fast compared to RWD.
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      01-14-2013, 10:26 AM   #99
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Front end looks like it could be a Lincoln!
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      01-14-2013, 10:36 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
I am afraid they might add some electronic tricks to make you feel like it is driving like a BMW as well
Feature: rear brakes lock up when you mat the gas pedal mid turn in order to simulate power-on oversteer.
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      01-14-2013, 10:43 AM   #101
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Let me back up and say that I'm not opposed to BMW making a FWD car. Is there any other manufacturer (mass-manufacturer, not a niche supercar maker) who does not make a FWD car? If we count Mini, I suppose we could say that BMW already does, but Mini is a separate brand, and that's kind of what I'm talking about here.

I loved my VWs. I owned 5 Golf/Rabbits, three of which were GTIs. My last GTI (MkV 2.0T DSG) will always be one of my favorite cars of all time. I can still remember the sensation on day I test drove it. I don't feel that a FWD has to be a bland, boring car.

The thing is this: FWD is not RWD. It's just not. We know that, BMW knows that, so why keep up with the charade? Just say what you really mean. BWM intends to make the best handling FWD car on the road. That is a fantastic goal! Just stop insisting that buyers won't be sacrificing anything by settling for FWD. They'll be gaining other things as well, so there's no need to veil this development in marketing-speak.
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      01-14-2013, 11:11 AM   #102
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Quote:
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There are plenty of people in this world that will buy this for the look, price, and/or brand and have no clue what the difference between fwd and rwd is. BMW knows this and they know how to make money
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      01-14-2013, 11:16 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
So true. Some body styles (e.g. roadsters), some models (e.g. M models), some specific cars (e.g. E46 M3 CSL, E92 M3 GTS, 1M) are not developed and marketed by BMW because they make pure straightforward commercial sense, even if they don't make BMW lose money in absolute, they make less sense than most regular models to engineer, produce and sell so why everyone raves about these type of cars even years after their production ends? Because they are the ones which hit the jackpot, the ones who make most people consider BMW badge and its usually higher price tag vs. competition as justified, that's why. They make every other BMW model sell more, as long as clients believe that there is something essential in common with those halo models, so that a BMW salesman can argue that an X1 or X3 makes sense to purchase even if they don't offer best interior space or price/performance, he can claim that because it has typical BMW driving dynamics price is justified. That's the single most important thing a company which has been developing its brand image on sportiveness for generations can not afford to lose. Risking it this recklessly on a niche market like small roadster segment is plain suicidal behaviour.

Why do you think that Alfa Romeo is developing 4C and will bring it to US market too? In order to sell hundreds of thousands of them? Of course not, to sell all the other regular fwd models in big numbers and last time I checked it would be an affordable mid engine, superlight construction, RWD compact coupe and roadster, very expensive to develop but relatively affordable to buy. No other Alfa models will be mid engined or rwd, but with a few things shared with that breathtaking 4C most people will find excuses to buy a hatchback, sedan or crossover Alfa. Isn't this how it works in the auto industry? What really changed now?

Also does this mean that we might see M division will find itsef building fwd M-Performance or even "real" M models in the future like it already did with xdrives and diesels?
..brilliantly said, kudos
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      01-14-2013, 11:59 AM   #104
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I was always excited to hear about the Z2/Z3 rumors being a back-to-basics RWD roadster/coupe because I would love to pick up a vehicle like this some day. If they truely are considering FWD for this vehicle, then that is unfortunate. While there have been great handling FWD cars like the Integra Type R and BMW's own Mini Cooper S, I would not consider a sporty roadster on a FWD platform.

I've frequently thought about picking up a used Z4 M Coupe, which is soundling more and more like the route I may go. Or possibly a Subaru BRZ. There are so many great choices between new and used cars out there these days.
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      01-14-2013, 12:59 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
For a small car like this, FWD is the only sensible choice. This will be a great success. It will be light, efficient and fast compared to RWD.
So I guess Mazda can out-engineer BMW? They seem to be able to make a small sensible RWD roadster.
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      01-14-2013, 01:29 PM   #106
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So I guess Mazda can out-engineer BMW? They seem to be able to make a small sensible RWD roadster.
Z2 will be a better car than 4th gen mx-5. Bmw out-engineers Mazda.
Medium sized and large cars should be rwd, but the weight savings of fwd are relatively more the less a car weighs. Small fwd is more agile and has a better power to weight ratio compared to rwd.
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      01-14-2013, 01:49 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
Z2 will be a better car than 4th gen mx-5. Bmw out-engineers Mazda.
Medium sized and large cars should be rwd, but the weight savings of fwd are relatively more the less a car weighs. Small fwd is more agile and has a better power to weight ratio compared to rwd.
So why would Mazda take the time to develop a low volume platform specific RWD chassis for their Miata roadster, when they could have better performance from one of their existing FWD platforms that were readily available? Oh right, because RWD handles better...
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      01-14-2013, 01:57 PM   #108
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So why would Mazda take the time to develop a low volume platform specific RWD chassis for their Miata roadster, when they could have better performance from one of their existing FWD platforms that were readily available? Oh right, because RWD handles better...
I believe it is because they have a big following of people used to Miata being rwd. Z2 is a new car so it does not need to compromise anything for historical reasons. Moreover Bmw has rwd Z4 for those who want to have Bmw and rwd.
Miata owners don't even know how to drive fwd fast
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      01-14-2013, 02:04 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
I believe it is because they have a big following of people used to Miata being rwd. Z2 is a new car so it does not need to compromise anything for historical reasons. Moreover Bmw has rwd Z4 for those who want to have Bmw and rwd.
Miata owners don't even know how to drive fwd fast
You got your chicken and egg backwards. Mazda made the Miata RWD first, then came the big following of enthusiasts. If BMW wants the Z2 to be a hit with enthusiasts, they should do the same.
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      01-14-2013, 02:18 PM   #110
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I was hoping the Z2 was going to happen... Soft Top, Rear Wheeled Drive, and then they have this stupid Idea that People want a FWD Roadster?!!?

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