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      01-09-2013, 03:10 PM   #89
SassyMcSass
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Originally Posted by Ferruccio View Post
This is *might* be a good setup, money being no object. Which manufacturers of upgraded fuel pump systems run this kind of platform? How much do those systems cost? Which cars are they used for? Your emphasis of salesmanship vs. data implies to me that you are used to a much higher standard.

I am unaware of other tuners for the 335i being this thorough, outside of, maybe, Dinan and HPF? Their systems are also much more expensive. It's probably a good balance between quality and price. Take a hint from SpaceX. It's cheaper to test a few times and fail than to spend excessive amounts of money ensuring it doesn't.
If such testing has not been done already where has the flow rating of 570lb/hr from the fuel system upgrade quoted in the first post come from??? If such testing has already been done why has it not been desribed to add some credability to the flow numbers published?

Flow testing is nessessary and inexpensive. One inexpensive method a small business like FFTEC might use is their shop car. Install each pump solution in car and measure the flow where the low pressure line feeds the high pressure pump. We're talking a couple hours of work here total.
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      01-09-2013, 03:48 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by SassyMcSass View Post
If such testing has not been done already where has the flow rating of 570lb/hr from the fuel system upgrade quoted in the first post come from??? If such testing has already been done why has it not been desribed to add some credability to the flow numbers published?

Flow testing is nessessary and inexpensive. One inexpensive method a small business like FFTEC might use is their shop car. Install each pump solution in car and measure the flow where the low pressure line feeds the high pressure pump. We're talking a couple hours of work here total.
This is completely reasonable! While recreating the whole fuel system would be laborous and reduce sales margins (Really, think of the size of the customer base for these non-procede products), the method in your most recent post is how I would do it. I would certainly ask Shiv that. It would take one part running in line to see what the fuel flow actually is. That could be what he did. We don't know. Do remember that it is still many people's holiday for now, and it is likely that Shiv just wanted to post a quick update. He did say that he would post more information after the Christmas vacation was over. I know many organizations that have their Christmas vacation run well towards the end of this month (surprisingly). I have not seen a history of obscuring data, just that data isn't as immediate as eager customers would like.
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      01-11-2013, 07:43 PM   #91
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Bump for an update. I expected with all the ruckus FFTEC or Vishnu would chime in with the data to support their flow figures in the original post or at least promise to substantiate them with real world testing as we discussed above.
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      01-11-2013, 11:54 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by SassyMcSass View Post
Bump for an update. I expected with all the ruckus FFTEC or Vishnu would chime in with the data to support their flow figures in the original post or at least promise to substantiate them with real world testing as we discussed above.
I think the lab results support the information Shiv already provided regarding this solution. So I'm not sure what you're getting so mad about? If you're on the fence, by the Walbro e85 pump and do the BMS upgrade. If it doesn't keep up get the FFTEC solution. Simple solution. No point in continue to argue because those who just want to hate on this solution are just killing it for everyone else.
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      01-15-2013, 02:47 PM   #93
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Terry said he made a fuel pump setup and will be comparing the two methods. Though, the one problem is he can only estimate exactly how the vishnu setup is done. I'm still on the fence about it. The only upgrade I need to do right now is the clutch, then a turbo rebuild.
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      01-15-2013, 05:06 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
I think the lab results support the information Shiv already provided regarding this solution. So I'm not sure what you're getting so mad about? If you're on the fence, by the Walbro e85 pump and do the BMS upgrade. If it doesn't keep up get the FFTEC solution. Simple solution. No point in continue to argue because those who just want to hate on this solution are just killing it for everyone else.
Any links to the lab results? Thanks.
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      01-15-2013, 07:05 PM   #95
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Any links to the lab results? Thanks.

You have the Internet at your fingers.... This is not the only platform using pumps and you can find all kinds of supporting data on the Internet to conclude that pumps in series out perform a single pump.

Do you really care? You're not going to buy the solution from FFTEC. But that is only one option, so what keeps feeding the need to keep nagging at people for data when you'll just make a comment to negate the facts. Enjoy the read.

Study of centrifugal pump operation in different arrangements by experimental methods
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      01-15-2013, 07:27 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferruccio View Post
Terry said he made a fuel pump setup and will be comparing the two methods. Though, the one problem is he can only estimate exactly how the vishnu setup is done. I'm still on the fence about it. The only upgrade I need to do right now is the clutch, then a turbo rebuild.
The funny part of this is Terry could just call FFTEC and order one of the pumps so he can get his own real world testing, not to mention he would have something to copy when he tries to makes his own solution. But like everything BMS has done in the past in spite of Vishnu, they have taken skewed data to create propaganda in their efforts to fuel the anti Vishnu trolls. Like Shiv’s ľ mile times for Edmond’s. They showed all the attempts to run a good ľ mile time with street conditions with a MT car, then turn around and show footage of a FBO AT car with RBs on a well prepared drag strip running better times. So when you talk about BMS bench testing the Walbro e85 upgrade to the Walbro e85 inline series upgrade, I have a hard time believing the information that is provided won’t end up being damaging toward Vishnu in some way even through Vishnu didn’t design or build this solution. This was and still is a FFTEC product. So why do I support the FFTEC solution? I have it installed on my car and haven’t had one issue running 80+% Ethanol content (100% e85) in my car sense I had it installed. So if you’re on the fence, take the information provided with a grain of salt because independent research show increased volume with two pumps in series and that volume % increases the higher the system restriction is. If you truly need more volume and you’re hitting a wall with LPFP codes all the time, do yourself a favor and close your eyes and buy the pump kit from FFTEC.
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      01-15-2013, 11:02 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
So why do I support the FFTEC solution? I have it installed on my car.
Fixed that for you.
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      01-16-2013, 08:43 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
You have the Internet at your fingers.... This is not the only platform using pumps and you can find all kinds of supporting data on the Internet to conclude that pumps in series out perform a single pump.

Do you really care? You're not going to buy the solution from FFTEC. But that is only one option, so what keeps feeding the need to keep nagging at people for data when you'll just make a comment to negate the facts. Enjoy the read.

Study of centrifugal pump operation in different arrangements by experimental methods
Cool nice read!
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      01-16-2013, 11:20 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by drfrink24 View Post
Fixed that for you.
You forgot to include this part of his quote; "and havenít had one issue (with the FFtec pump) running 80+% Ethanol content (100% e85) in my car since I had it installed."

This is an important point because Vishnu/FFtec spent over 2 years testing and revising their pump before releasing it for public use.
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      01-16-2013, 01:45 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
You forgot to include this part of his quote; "and havenít had one issue (with the FFtec pump) running 80+% Ethanol content (100% e85) in my car since I had it installed."

This is an important point because Vishnu/FFtec spent over 2 years testing and revising their pump before releasing it for public use.
Funny how people treat this as if it's NEW Technology. Yeah, it's new to the 335 platform, but look at all the other tuner cars on the market over the years and how many had to upgrade fueling systems. People also forget this isn't apples to apples. We run a DI system and people make accusations based on PI knowledge without understanding the differences in the two systems. Personally, I'm glad it works because I was so pissed after doing all the upgrades and flashes to get to the level I'm at with tuning my car only to hit a brick wall with the LPFP. This is for all the guys at FFTEC that helped make this a reality.
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      01-16-2013, 01:51 PM   #101
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Cool nice read!
Hey, hows the single treating you? Did you do the pump upgrade yet so you can run some e85 with your single? I was trip'n when I got a look at Shiv's surge tank and the fact he was running 100% e85 pulling over 700whp on the mustang. That's sick.

Would have PM'd you, but I figured this thread is about dead so why not .... Also lost my ability to PM, so not much option unless I go next door and post.

Hope all is good in the SE.
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      01-16-2013, 03:37 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
You have the Internet at your fingers.... This is not the only platform using pumps and you can find all kinds of supporting data on the Internet to conclude that pumps in series out perform a single pump.

Do you really care? You're not going to buy the solution from FFTEC. But that is only one option, so what keeps feeding the need to keep nagging at people for data when you'll just make a comment to negate the facts. Enjoy the read.

Study of centrifugal pump operation in different arrangements by experimental methods
You said there were lab results, I assumed they are on this pump. I have searched Google, cant find them. Could you please post them?

If not, I will just wait for Terry to finish his tests. Just looking at the math and data (maybe what you are calling "lab results"), on this forum, others, and other existing platforms, I really don't think the FFTEC pump is a good properly engineered solution. These two pumps should not be run in series for this purpose, especially with such widely varying flow rates.
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      01-16-2013, 03:52 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
Hey, hows the single treating you? Did you do the pump upgrade yet so you can run some e85 with your single? I was trip'n when I got a look at Shiv's surge tank and the fact he was running 100% e85 pulling over 700whp on the mustang. That's sick.

Would have PM'd you, but I figured this thread is about dead so why not .... Also lost my ability to PM, so not much option unless I go next door and post.

Hope all is good in the SE.
I'm actually working on the fuel pump right now. The single-T has been good to me, I'm just trying to fniish off all the little things like the pump etc... Are you running the Flex fuel sensor as well?
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      01-16-2013, 05:46 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
You forgot to include this part of his quote; "and havenít had one issue (with the FFtec pump) running 80+% Ethanol content (100% e85) in my car since I had it installed."

This is an important point because Vishnu/FFtec spent over 2 years testing and revising their pump before releasing it for public use.
That was intentional, its a joke, as the number one compelling reason that people recommend something is because that's what they have, with a distant, (far distant) second reason, because of hard data.
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      01-16-2013, 06:24 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by drfrink24 View Post
That was intentional, its a joke, as the number one compelling reason that people recommend something is because that's what they have, with a distant, (far distant) second reason, because of hard data.
I think all jokes should be left aside until Terry is finished with his testing. What is the point of coming back into this thread if you know for a fact you will not be buying the FFTEC pump? To spread your slander and jokes to discourage others from buying the pump? Or are you just DYING to voice your opinion on this product because it makes you feel right inside?
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      01-16-2013, 06:38 PM   #106
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I think all jokes should be left aside until Terry is finished with his testing. What is the point of coming back into this thread if you know for a fact you will not be buying the FFTEC pump? To spread your slander and jokes to discourage others from buying the pump? Or are you just DYING to voice your opinion on this product because it makes you feel right inside?
Slander requires statements to be false. You're making the same assumptions you claim others to be guilty of (in assuming this kit is or isn't better than other options). Really only thing anyone wants is the data to make up a decision. The data is compelling against this pump being a better option than a single E85 or a parallel E85 setup. Lets wait and see?
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      01-16-2013, 10:09 PM   #107
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After reading 5 pages of this thread I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to do the BMS style Walbro pump and if that isn't enough or I end up 'maxing' that out then I'll get the FFTEC upgrade.

I don't understand why people are debating this to death. These are two different upgrades that can be run at the same time. Do one of them, and if it doesn't work for you, add in the other one and you should have a pretty stout LP fuel system.
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      01-17-2013, 02:34 AM   #108
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You said there were lab results, I assumed they are on this pump. I have searched Google, cant find them. Could you please post them?

If not, I will just wait for Terry to finish his tests. Just looking at the math and data (maybe what you are calling "lab results"), on this forum, others, and other existing platforms, I really don't think the FFTEC pump is a good properly engineered solution. These two pumps should not be run in series for this purpose, especially with such widely varying flow rates.
There is supporting data and as far as I'm concerned the supporting data is a clear indication FFTEC solution is a viable solution and will out perform a single pump. The lines shouldn't have air in them, so startup cavitation shouldn't be an issue. I agree, this solution would be better if both pumps were the same, but it meets our needs.

I think it's great that Terry is taking the time to put to rest the flow testing. I just hope he provides accurate results. I already question his testing because he doesn't have that I'm aware of the FFTEC pump to test with.
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      01-17-2013, 02:46 AM   #109
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That was intentional, its a joke, as the number one compelling reason that people recommend something is because that's what they have, with a distant, (far distant) second reason, because of hard data.
Yes I have the pump and yes I recommend it only if you need it. Hell, 90% of the people on this forum don't need it. Like walnut blasting, it's the next hot thing to do to your car... If you are having LPFP issues and your car isn't under warranty and you don't need a booster pump to maintain volume levels required for 100% e85, do the Walbro e85 upgrade. This isn't F'n rocket science people and the two solutions shouldn't be compared, they are options. To be honest, the only reason I didn't go replacement LPFP was because someone else running 100% e85 did the LPFP replacement and even with a new pump they were getting LPFP codes. So I took a chance and paid the money and haven't looked back because I haven't had one LPFP code sense. Yes it's a lot of money if you are trying to compare the two options, but they are not apples to apples so everyone just needs to stop talking shit and just drop the BS banter.
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      01-17-2013, 02:53 AM   #110
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I'm actually working on the fuel pump right now. The single-T has been good to me, I'm just trying to fniish off all the little things like the pump etc... Are you running the Flex fuel sensor as well?
Got it all... Not sure why, but it sounded cool when I bought it. Nice to be able to see the content level, but I run map 4 because meth isn't active in map 3. Pulled some big numbers and put down some hurt at shift sector for just stock turbos. Really looking forward to doing a single. I've drove a few and they just keep pulling. Good luck with the pump. I know the FFTEC pump was a life saver for me. After doing all the upgrades then to have LPFP issues pissed me off because I couldn't pull a 1/4 without coding. You should fly out for the next shift sector and hang out. I think they are planning to go back to the airfield in March. You can fly into Sacramento. Only a couple hours south then.
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