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      01-16-2013, 10:26 AM   #1
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Help with an amp choice

Firstly Hi to all, very new to the Forum and I still haven't picked up my new E90 320d yet as I'm stuck in Denmark But I will have it soon when I return in a couple of weeks.

I opted to find an E90 with the basic audio system as I'm a bit of a lover of a great music system so hopefully will have minimum headaches in upgrading the system. Previous installs have always been Pheonix Gold Xenon which i loved, but can't find a UK PG dealer, plus it's time to try something new.

After having read many threads on here. I've come up with my System of choice. I will have the Rears disconnected but may add some in the future. Although very custom I will buy new panels and keep original so that I can sell it in the future as stock fit car.

Up front -
1. Hertz HSK163 - 3 Way Components(custom card builds)
2. iPad Mini as entertainment centre (moving HU to boot) - Custom motorized mount.

Boot -
Custom Corner Sub Enclosure with JL Audio 12W6v2
Amp - JL Audio XD600-1
Audison Bit Ten

I'm stuck on which amp to drive the Hertz components up front. I think I've short listed down to two possible choices, but only by reading reviews and doing some homework.

Pioneer PRS-D220
Focal FPP 4100

What are your thoughts on this system and the amp choices. Are there any I've overlooked. I'm a little apprehensive of the Bit Ten, it sounds like it does an amazing job and will certainly enhance any sound of the ipad, but is it absolutely necessary.

Anyway, thanks advance for any advice/critisism, it's all appreciated.

Dave
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      01-16-2013, 11:29 AM   #2
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FYI

You might have to go to some up the other boards to get and evaluation of
some of that stuff as its not common here.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com
I would also google on cnet for or the bulk of the internet for reviews

There is also a Euro sub board here
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      01-16-2013, 11:40 AM   #3
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10-4.

Thanks for the link, i'll go check them out. As for reviews I've read quite a few and watched some youtube vids staging them and also reviewing them, but still undecided.

Thanks for your input, I've seen a few Brits on here so maybe they might pipe up.
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      01-16-2013, 02:09 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
Up front -
1. Hertz HSK163 - 3 Way Components(custom card builds)
Are you planning to run them active or going to use it with their cross overs?
As that make a difference to what amp you choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
2. iPad Mini as entertainment centre (moving HU to boot) - Custom motorized mount.
Very interesting. I thought about fitting ipad mini in E90 few months ago, but the amount of work, modification and hassel put me off.

So are you going to run ipad ---> bit one.
What method are you going to use? aux in, or BT?
or any other way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
What are your thoughts on this system and the amp choices. Are there any I've overlooked.
So I am assuming that HU in the rear is just for updates.
Have you thought about radio? On ipad, you may not get the radio unless you go for 3G version and use internet radio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
Are there any I've overlooked. I'm a little apprehensive of the Bit Ten, it sounds like it does an amazing job and will certainly enhance any sound of the ipad, but is it absolutely necessary.
If you read its manual, it states again and again that you will be inviting noise in the system if its not installed with care (gains and all that stuff).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
Anyway, thanks advance for any advice/critisism, it's all appreciated.
Some other points:

-Another route / possible method

Replace your HU with 80PRS. You will have built in DSP and time allignment.
That saves you from buying Audison bit 10. Also 80PRS comes with the ability of auto time allighnment and auto equiliser. So all that time which you will spend on manual tweaking will be done by the HU for you.
Lastly, reduced chances of noise which can come from audison bit one.

And install mini ipad at the top of HU (see other threads). When needed stream the music over BT.

So even if you forget your mini ipad at home, you will have music from SD card, usb stick, radio & cd.


-Your sub and amp seems spot on.

- 3 inch mids are going to door cards and 6.5 inch mid bass drivers going under seats. Is that what is your plan?

Looking forward to see your installation.
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      01-16-2013, 02:39 PM   #5
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I would not recommend the hertz components unless you are planning in putting the mid basses in the doors. Even then the 3" mid can not go as low as other 4" drivers so there is a change of the stage being pulled down. It really would be a waste not to take full advantage of the speaker locations in the car, including the underseats.
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      01-16-2013, 03:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Are you planning to run them active or going to use it with their cross overs?
As that make a difference to what amp you choose?
I was planning on using the Xovers that came with them, as I assume they will be matched perfectly for the tweets, hi mids and mids.


Quote:
Very interesting. I thought about fitting ipad mini in E90 few months ago, but the amount of work, modification and hassel put me off.
I've been going over designs and trying to figure the best way and I think it will be using the connect2 double din facia as a baseline to fabricate from.

Quote:
So are you going to run ipad ---> bit one.
What method are you going to use? aux in, or BT?
or any other way?
I was going to go the Aux in, however having read your post below a 80PRS does sound like a better option and you have raised some good points as to why you should still have one.


Quote:
So I am assuming that HU in the rear is just for updates.
Have you thought about radio? On ipad, you may not get the radio unless you go for 3G version and use internet radio.
I Bought the 32GB 3G version, as I wanted to be able to use the new maps with directions, get radio, and the missus can watch her TV shows on long journeys, etc


Quote:
If you read its manual, it states again and again that you will be inviting noise in the system if its not installed with care (gains and all that stuff).
I've downloaded the manual, but not got round to reading it yet. I'm still in the planning stages, but will certainly be having a closer look in the near future.

Some other points:

Quote:
-Another route / possible method

Replace your HU with 80PRS. You will have built in DSP and time allignment.
That saves you from buying Audison bit 10. Also 80PRS comes with the ability of auto time allighnment and auto equiliser. So all that time which you will spend on manual tweaking will be done by the HU for you.
Lastly, reduced chances of noise which can come from audison bit one.

And install mini ipad at the top of HU (see other threads). When needed stream the music over BT.

So even if you forget your mini ipad at home, you will have music from SD card, usb stick, radio & cd.
Absolutely love this idea and think i'll be taking this onboard.


Quote:
-Your sub and amp seems spot on.
LOL!! I've seen quite a few people rave about this setup so I think it was always going to be a given.

Quote:
- 3 inch mids are going to door cards and 6.5 inch mid bass drivers going under seats. Is that what is your plan?
See Kaigoss69's answer I gave below

Quote:
Looking forward to see your installation.
Me too.... need the car first, then I'll be buying components and parts over time, whilst fabricating. The only thing I can really start on is the ipad panel and the Sub enclosure carcus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I would not recommend the hertz components unless you are planning in putting the mid basses in the doors. Even then the 3" mid can not go as low as other 4" drivers so there is a change of the stage being pulled down. It really would be a waste not to take full advantage of the speaker locations in the car, including the underseats.
I plan on fitting these into some custom built doors cards. I will be buying used door cards to do the fabrication on and keep the originals for sale time!

What say ye to the equivelant Focal 3 Ways 165VR33 I'm kinda torn between the two but prefer the design of the Hertz and the larger RMS output.



Thanks for your comments chaps they have been very helpful. I feel I need to take myself away and read up more on the Bit ten and keeping my original HU. Way up some things aswell.
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      01-16-2013, 05:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
What say ye to the equivelant Focal 3 Ways 165VR33 I'm kinda torn between the two but prefer the design of the Hertz and the larger RMS output.
I used to run that same set in my Jetta and for the price I was not that impressed to tell you the truth. The Focal tweeters are very bright, and definitely need to be tamed with the use of a good processor. The mids are fairly good with vocals from what I remember, but the mid basses did not have very much impact. I had the door cards well deadened, so that wasn't the issue for sure. I just expected more from those drivers. I switched to $45 Peerless SLS-8's and the difference was night and day. I just like a lot of impact and the Focals lacked in that department.

I understand the desire to go with a big name "matched" 3-way set but you simply will not find one that is optimized for the BMW. The combination of a good 4" component set and a set of 8" slim mid basses, with 4 dedicated amp channels driving them, IMO will give you the best results, WITHOUT having to hack-up your door cards.
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      01-16-2013, 06:12 PM   #8
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Well to be honest, I would be fool to dismiss your advise. I've generally owned hot hatches in the past where I guess the sets I speak of, would have worked a charm. I see the Earthquake 8" seem to be the popular choice for under seats, but is this not a substitute instead of having a sub in the boot, I'm not a bass head if that makes sense. As for 4" component set, I'll start looking.
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      01-17-2013, 03:24 AM   #9
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So, thinking about it more, would using the 6.5" in kicks from 3way passive system give me the low mid fill I'm after? I would like them to be quite punchy, get the vocals from the hi mids(3" or 4", prob 4's as these can fit straight in doors). Any some nice highs(not harsh, like bacon sizzling in a pan)

Any comments or experiences regarding Amps is still welcome.
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      01-17-2013, 07:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
I feel I need to take myself away and read up more on the Bit ten and keeping my original HU. Way up some things aswell.
You can go that route as well.
I thought you were getting rid of HU to put mini ipad there.
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      01-17-2013, 07:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
So, thinking about it more, would using the 6.5" in kicks from 3way passive system give me the low mid fill I'm after? I would like them to be quite punchy, get the vocals from the hi mids(3" or 4", prob 4's as these can fit straight in doors). Any some nice highs(not harsh, like bacon sizzling in a pan)

Any comments or experiences regarding Amps is still welcome.
I second what Kaigoss said.

If you want to hear 3 inch mids in BMW, then you may have to travel to London. Here is his thread.

He fabricated the OEM speakers (by breaking it) and use it to make spacers for 3 inch mids. He also has bit one in his car. If you like, you can hear it before making your mind.

But as Kaigoss said that, with 3 inch mids, they are not going to go low and since your under seats are far low, your sound stage will get effected.

You can consider Jenherts 3 ways or Jenherts underseats.

You can also consider Gladen 3 way kit. (though 100W only).

Or you can go with 4 inch drivers and Jenherts under seats and use your amp to HP / LP.
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      01-17-2013, 08:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
You can go that route as well.
I thought you were getting rid of HU to put mini ipad there.
Yes I am, still want to keep the HU and move it to the boot, maybe I've got my wires X'd somewhere, but reading posts on here, doing this keeps some fundimental features.

I'm still reading and trying to get upto speed, so your comments are very welcome. I'm trying to see if there is a need to go with your suggestion of putting a 80prs in there instead of bit ten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
I second what Kaigoss said.

But as Kaigoss said that, with 3 inch mids, they are not going to go low and since your under seats are far low, your sound stage will get effected.
I should get my lows from the 12" corner sub in the boot. I'm not really interested in the underseats (at the moment). Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming that the 12" will give me the base I need, 6.5" will/should give low mids, 3 or 4" will give me my high mids(vocals) and the tweeters i'll get my highs.

I find it hard to believe that the the only configuration available is to just change stock sizes like for like, but better.

I'm more than happy to fabricate door pods to house the 4" and 6.5" and do some A pillar pods for tweeters.

Thanks again
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      01-17-2013, 09:11 AM   #13
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Kicks are going to be worse for low frequency extension since you normally have less air space behind the woofers compared to the doors. What will improve in the kicks is the ability of the woofer to play much higher, due to the fact that it is much more on-axis. It may work with the right drivers, but again you are throwing away the gift of having dedicated 8" mid bass locations underneath the seats, without anybody knowing they are there.
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      01-17-2013, 09:42 AM   #14
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Okee Dokee, so moving along with keeping 4" mids and 8" underseat subs. Are there any tight punchy shallow 8". What are the Pioneers like, I know they are relatively cheap but price doesn't necessarily reflect quality. There are many reviews which seem to praise them, but none which describe the bass as punchy.

Others to select from are Kicker, Hertz and Earthquake and Audio Systems(BMW specific sub) oh and the Jehnert 8"

I see sense in what you guys are saying, I'm not playing devil's advocate but trying to better understand what options I have.
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      01-18-2013, 07:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
Okee Dokee, so moving along with keeping 4" mids and 8" underseat subs. Are there any tight punchy shallow 8". What are the Pioneers like, I know they are relatively cheap but price doesn't necessarily reflect quality. There are many reviews which seem to praise them, but none which describe the bass as punchy.

Others to select from are Kicker, Hertz and Earthquake and Audio Systems(BMW specific sub) oh and the Jehnert 8"

I see sense in what you guys are saying, I'm not playing devil's advocate but trying to better understand what options I have.
About amps, it all depens on which route you are going for.
If you are going pioneer HU route, then going active (best thing you can do) is must.
You would require something like XD 600/6 for it.
1 pair for tweeters
1 pairs for mids
1 pair for underseats

In network mode of HU, you will get three pairs of RCA (low / mid / high) and you can control all sort of attributes from your HU.


If you are going down the HU + Bit one route, then you would require 4 channel amp.
2 channels for front mids and tweeter via passive xover
2 channels for underseats

XD 600/6 can still work in this scenario. you can bridge channel 3&4 and 5&6 for your underseats.

You will still require lots of tweaking / adjusting / readjusting on bit one though.

Referring to underseats, what pioneer under seats are you considering?
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      01-18-2013, 11:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
About amps, it all depens on which route you are going for.
If you are going pioneer HU route, then going active (best thing you can do) is must.
You would require something like XD 600/6 for it.
1 pair for tweeters
1 pairs for mids
1 pair for underseats

In network mode of HU, you will get three pairs of RCA (low / mid / high) and you can control all sort of attributes from your HU.


If you are going down the HU + Bit one route, then you would require 4 channel amp.
2 channels for front mids and tweeter via passive xover
2 channels for underseats

XD 600/6 can still work in this scenario. you can bridge channel 3&4 and 5&6 for your underseats.

You will still require lots of tweaking / adjusting / readjusting on bit one though.

Referring to underseats, what pioneer under seats are you considering?
These are the Pioneers. Have a mounting depth of 2.5"(63.5mm) I think the max for the underseat is 54mm if i'm not mistaken , but I believe that mounting plates/spacers can over come this as we are only talking 1cm difference.

So, what advantages do you gain from an active system over passive, generally speaking.

EDIT: ignore that, i've found a great write up on passive and active.

Thanks for sticking with this
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      01-18-2013, 05:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer
Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
About amps, it all depens on which route you are going for.
If you are going pioneer HU route, then going active (best thing you can do) is must.
You would require something like XD 600/6 for it.
1 pair for tweeters
1 pairs for mids
1 pair for underseats

In network mode of HU, you will get three pairs of RCA (low / mid / high) and you can control all sort of attributes from your HU.


If you are going down the HU + Bit one route, then you would require 4 channel amp.
2 channels for front mids and tweeter via passive xover
2 channels for underseats

XD 600/6 can still work in this scenario. you can bridge channel 3&4 and 5&6 for your underseats.

You will still require lots of tweaking / adjusting / readjusting on bit one though.

Referring to underseats, what pioneer under seats are you considering?
These are the Pioneers. Have a mounting depth of 2.5"(63.5mm) I think the max for the underseat is 54mm if i'm not mistaken , but I believe that mounting plates/spacers can over come this as we are only talking 1cm difference.

So, what advantages do you gain from an active system over passive, generally speaking.

EDIT: ignore that, i've found a great write up on passive and active.

Thanks for sticking with this
On iphone, I cannot check those pioneers, but would like to check them.
Re: active vs passive article, for the benefit of other readers (who may / will read your thread), kindly post a link to what you read.
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      01-19-2013, 12:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
On iphone, I cannot check those pioneers, but would like to check them.
Re: active vs passive article, for the benefit of other readers (who may / will read your thread), kindly post a link to wh
Here is the link from Diymobileaudio.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/62787-why-everyone-using-active-crossovers.html

The second post has 2 links that I think explains it very well however the thread is a good read with some very good points raised.

It would appear that you have more control with an active system.
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      01-19-2013, 01:50 PM   #19
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Those Pioneers don't work well, they have been tried. Besides, if you're dead set on getting a trunk sub, you need mid bass drivers under the seats, not wannabe subs!
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      01-19-2013, 06:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69
Those Pioneers don't work well, they have been tried. Besides, if you're dead set on getting a trunk sub, you need mid bass drivers under the seats, not wannabe subs!
Kaigoss
Any link with pioneer installed on BMW.
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      01-20-2013, 05:20 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69
Those Pioneers don't work well, they have been tried. Besides, if you're dead set on getting a trunk sub, you need mid bass drivers under the seats, not wannabe subs!
Thanks Kaigoss, having looked more at the UK base system, the underseats are 6.5" any way which will allow me get the mid sound I'm after, i think. Possibly get a 10" for rear instead of 12". I'll go and listen to them first before making a decision.

I'm more pursuaded to go active and buy my "component set" individually without the crossovers, using 80PRS or even the 99PRS.

EDIT: scrap the 99PRS, for the price I could go Bit One. Saw a use of the ipad camera connector to get digital audio to a bit one, only problem is charging.

If i went Bit one i can still have an active system, right? Looking at it more Buying the Hertz Mille drivers without the crossovers would be at the max of my budget for speakers.
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      01-28-2013, 04:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
If i went Bit one i can still have an active system, right? Looking at it more Buying the Hertz Mille drivers without the crossovers would be at the max of my budget for speakers.

Here is a tip for you.

A) BMW OEM HU ----> Bit one/ ten (processing) -----> amplifier ----> drivers (active or passive)

B) P80RS (processing & time allignment) -----> amplifier ----> drivers. (active or passive)

In above two routes, chances of noise is less in that system where there is less equipment.

Also, bit one / ten will take the signals and flat them first of all and then recreate the sound signals for the HU. With P80RS, signals will be coming directly from the HU (pure form). I may be wrong but IMO, P80RS seems to work better.
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