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      01-18-2013, 07:47 PM   #45
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Luckly they've given me a loaner for the majority of the time.
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      01-19-2013, 01:48 AM   #46
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Dude, this sucks. I suppose it is no consolation to tell you that I have almost 84k on my 09 and just get a SES light that comes on and goes out after I fill up the tank. Here, you need:
and
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      01-19-2013, 01:59 PM   #47
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Here is an update. On post #13, I mentioned that I got the SES light and a OBD code that say the injector for cylinder 2 is at its adaptation limit. I got the car back from the dealer Friday. They replaced injector #2.
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      01-19-2013, 07:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montr View Post
Here is an update. On post #13, I mentioned that I got the SES light and a OBD code that say the injector for cylinder 2 is at its adaptation limit. I got the car back from the dealer Friday. They replaced injector #2.
This is insane. Almost wish we had the HPFP problem, at least BMW extended the basic warranty to 100k miles for that. I dont think we are going to get any warranty extension for this injector/carbon buildup problem which seems to be becoming a "known" issue too. It is easier to say that carbon buildup is a natural phenomon, unlike a pump failure.

I cant help thinking that the injector issue is related to the carbon buildup issue. I guess my questions are:

How long can you continue to drive the car with a bad injector?
How long is it before a code is thrown for such an injector failure?
Is it possible to have a bad injector causing carbonization of the intake manifold without it throwing a code?
What is the code that is thrown when you have an injector failure?
IsIs there a cause and effect relationship at all? Or is the carbon buildup more related to the North American SCR emission system and the injector failure is just carbon buildup on the injector evidencing likely carbon buildup on the entire intake as well (but the injectors are more sensitive or have a more sensitive sensor)?
Does using injector cleaner improve things?
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      01-20-2013, 01:39 PM   #49
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Here is another update. I am in the same boat as 135i_vs_ (post #14). 2 days after the dealer replaced injector #2, the SES light is ON again. Same OBD code as before: P02CE "Cylinder 2 Fuel Injector Offset Learning at Min Limit". The new injector is bad or the injector is not the problem.
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      01-20-2013, 02:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montr View Post
Here is another update. I am in the same boat as 135i_vs_ (post #14). 2 days after the dealer replaced injector #2, the SES light is ON again. Same OBD code as before: P02CE "Cylinder 2 Fuel Injector Offset Learning at Min Limit". The new injector is bad or the injector is not the problem.
Exact same problem here. The car is back with them because the code is for the same injector they replaced.

This time, they are replacing the DME. The SA suspected the DME from the very beginning, however, BMW NA didn't approve it, until it went through the "procedures". Since the light is back for the same problem, it is obvious it's not the new injector.

Supposedly the DME is not erasing the fault(s) or not recognizing that there is no longer any fault(s).


I should have car back by Wednesday.
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      01-20-2013, 08:38 PM   #51
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My Injector problem turned out to be Carbon

Thought I should share my experience, since it seems similar to others. Keep in mind that I still love the car and except for the numerous recalls and a few minor annoyances, the first 47k miles were a great experience. The last 6 months have me struggling with the decision to keep the car. I have made no mods to the car, it is stock.

I started having the same injector problem about 6 months ago @ 47k; only it kept throwing the code for injector 4. When the code showed up for the first time, they struggled for a week to get the SES light to stay off. Bottom-line, the first two 2 times, I was told they replaced the injectors and got the codes to reset (although I always got the sense that they were not sure injectors were the problem).

My most recent code/SES light showed up a few weeks before Christmas with about 54k miles on the car. I did not purchased the extended warranty, so I went into the BMW dealer ready for some resistance to cover this repair. Once I pointed out that the code was the same as two of their prior repairs, they stepped up almost immediately to say they would get it covered.

At that point, they opened up a PUMA case and worked with BMW to correct the problem. It was determined my issue was carbon buildup on the intake manifold, valve cover and valves. Based on the finding, BMW replaced the Intake Manifold and did a Carbon cleaning for the valve cover and valves. The carbon cleaning, which was sublet, was done with walnut shells. The carbon removal appears to have done the trick. The SES Light is off and the car runs better and performs at a higher level than I remember. Once again, itís a joy to drive. I am getting a burnt charcoal/oil smell through the ventilation system when the car is hot and idling at a stop. I think itís from the carbon cleaning splashing down the engine and burning off. Iím sure BMW will remedy this. Since the repair took 3+ weeks, the dealer serviced (Changed the oil and filled the Def) for free.

My concern is that they told me they currently have no known way to prevent the buildup from occurring again. Although the codes didnít show up until 47k miles, I believe it affected performance long before that. I have to believe that buildup will only be faster the second time around.

I do have one other problem. Because of the situation above, Iíve half-heartedly started looking for a replacement. I canít find anything I like nearly as much.
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      01-20-2013, 09:04 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedaDiesel_335D View Post
Thought I should share my experience, since it seems similar to others. Keep in mind that I still love the car and except for the numerous recalls and a few minor annoyances, the first 47k miles were a great experience. The last 6 months have me struggling with the decision to keep the car. I have made no mods to the car, it is stock.

I started having the same injector problem about 6 months ago @ 47k; only it kept throwing the code for injector 4. When the code showed up for the first time, they struggled for a week to get the SES light to stay off. Bottom-line, the first two 2 times, I was told they replaced the injectors and got the codes to reset (although I always got the sense that they were not sure injectors were the problem).

My most recent code/SES light showed up a few weeks before Christmas with about 54k miles on the car. I did not purchased the extended warranty, so I went into the BMW dealer ready for some resistance to cover this repair. Once I pointed out that the code was the same as two of their prior repairs, they stepped up almost immediately to say they would get it covered.

At that point, they opened up a PUMA case and worked with BMW to correct the problem. It was determined my issue was carbon buildup on the intake manifold, valve cover and valves. Based on the finding, BMW replaced the Intake Manifold and did a Carbon cleaning for the valve cover and valves. The carbon cleaning, which was sublet, was done with walnut shells. The carbon removal appears to have done the trick. The SES Light is off and the car runs better and performs at a higher level than I remember. Once again, itís a joy to drive. I am getting a burnt charcoal/oil smell through the ventilation system when the car is hot and idling at a stop. I think itís from the carbon cleaning splashing down the engine and burning off. Iím sure BMW will remedy this. Since the repair took 3+ weeks, the dealer serviced (Changed the oil and filled the Def) for free.

My concern is that they told me they currently have no known way to prevent the buildup from occurring again. Although the codes didnít show up until 47k miles, I believe it affected performance long before that. I have to believe that buildup will only be faster the second time around.

I do have one other problem. Because of the situation above, Iíve half-heartedly started looking for a replacement. I canít find anything I like nearly as much.
Sorry to hear, sounds like an ordeal, and not to mention it must be very disheartening.

With that many miles I assume most of that build-up occured before the EGR recall/replacement/reprogramming. If you've had that done and with a clean intake I am optimisitic you should not see the issue reoccur - assuming BMW got it right with the fix.

Carbon build-up in the intake is a problem with all DI engines to include the gasoline 335i. Walnut blasting is not uncommon in those cars in the upper mileage bracket 60k+ mi. It can be performed by an indy for $400 +/-.

Anyway, good luck and it might not be unreasonable for you to ask BMW to extend the warranty consideirng your problems, even if you have to pay for it it might be worth it.
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      01-20-2013, 09:09 PM   #53
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I say nuts to all this

How come we don't just get a walnut shell blasting every 40k or so, even if out of our pocket? The service is available. We seem to have enough anecdotal evidence now don't we? A speed shop guy cautioned me in June last year to be on the lookout for this. This was when I had the car for only one month so it kinda went in one ear and out the other. And run a good fuel additive and drive it hard. We bought the car to drive it hard anyway, did we not? And get good mileage to partially soothe our conscience.
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      01-20-2013, 09:23 PM   #54
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My EGR valve was replaced only 500 miles before this ordeal, so I'm sure most of the carbon buildup occurred before that. If someone could convince me that the new EGR valve would correct/significantly reduce carbon buildup, I may stop my search for a new car. I must have asked the SA 10 times (we talked a lot over the 3+ weeks they were correcting the problem) about preventing the buildup and he never mentioned the new EGR. I tend to put 20 - 25k miles a year on my cars and would love to keep this one a while.
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      01-20-2013, 10:04 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedaDiesel_335D View Post
My EGR valve was replaced only 500 miles before this ordeal, so I'm sure most of the carbon buildup occurred before that. If someone could convince me that the new EGR valve would correct/significantly reduce carbon buildup, I may stop my search for a new car. I must have asked the SA 10 times (we talked a lot over the 3+ weeks they were correcting the problem) about preventing the buildup and he never mentioned the new EGR. I tend to put 20 - 25k miles a year on my cars and would love to keep this one a while.
If it's any consulation, most SA's have no idea what they are talking about. Becoming an SA requires no special training, so unless you have a reason to put a lot of stock in what your SA is telling you, don't.

I am not sure anyone can convince you the new EGR replacement/reprogamming will correct the issue - it's still to new of a fix. May I suggest contacting BMW NA regarding the EGR campaign and your recent carbon build-up problem. Explain to them you and others shared your experience here on E90Post. Inquire about the EGR recall/reprogramming and whether it should solve the problem The representative know you intend to share their response here on E90Post. Good luck to you and whatever you decide.

Last edited by cssnms; 01-21-2013 at 08:55 AM.
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      01-20-2013, 10:50 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedaDiesel_335D View Post
My EGR valve was replaced only 500 miles before this ordeal, so I'm sure most of the carbon buildup occurred before that. If someone could convince me that the new EGR valve would correct/significantly reduce carbon buildup, I may stop my search for a new car. I must have asked the SA 10 times (we talked a lot over the 3+ weeks they were correcting the problem) about preventing the buildup and he never mentioned the new EGR. I tend to put 20 - 25k miles a year on my cars and would love to keep this one a while.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I just emailed my SA after reading your post.

The 335d I purchased started having injector code problems since 44k. The updated EGR was installed only recently. So far BMW replaced injectors only to have the problem come back. They even installed a new DME 3k miles ago.
You would think this issue would be made aware by BMW NA to every BMW Service shops by now. My SA was thinking maybe someone put gas in the past. What bs.

As far as the EGR update and carbon build up; when I asked the tech if my car has carbon build up? His response "no it shouldn't, you have the latest EGR update..." What he failed to realize is that the car got the update only recently. The carbon build up damage is from all the previous miles before the update.

Very useful that we share knowledge and experiences.
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      01-21-2013, 08:25 AM   #57
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Just curious if anyone knows. The walnut blasting/cleaning of the head and intake valves. Is this done with the head ON the engine, or is it removed? I do find it interesting that in most warrenty cases for cabon build, they replace the head rather than clean it (I expect it is cleaned at some point and made available as a refurb replacement).

I'll presume there is no way to meet emission standards, even with more DEF usage, without resorting to EGR (I would go for that!). Am I correct that the primary need for EGR is to reduce NOx?
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      01-21-2013, 04:17 PM   #58
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I wond if these few injector problems are related to a tune.
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      01-21-2013, 08:13 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I wond if these few injector problems are related to a tune.
My car is stock, no mod.
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      01-21-2013, 11:45 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbsilver View Post
Just curious if anyone knows. The walnut blasting/cleaning of the head and intake valves. Is this done with the head ON the engine, or is it removed? I do find it interesting that in most warrenty cases for cabon build, they replace the head rather than clean it (I expect it is cleaned at some point and made available as a refurb replacement).

I'll presume there is no way to meet emission standards, even with more DEF usage, without resorting to EGR (I would go for that!). Am I correct that the primary need for EGR is to reduce NOx?
Yes, the EGR and the SCR are to reduce NOx emission:

"Beginning with model year 2009, BMW will introduce 2 diesel
models for the first time since 1987. The E90 and E70 will be
available with the new M57D30T2 (US) engine.
The two new models will meet the EPA Tier 2, Bin 5 requirements
and will be considered ď50 StateĒ legal. In order to comply with
these new stringent regulations, both vehicles have the latest in
emission control and engine management technology.
Both vehicles will be equipped with the latest Selective Catalytic
Reduction system to reduce unwanted NOx emissions. Also, the
X5 will have an additional Low Pressure EGR system to further
assist in the reduction of NOx."

Here what BMW say about the EGR:

"Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR)
During normal operation, the exhaust gas recirculation is controlled
based on the EGR ratio. During regeneration of the diesel particulate
filter, it is conventionally controlled based on the air mass.
The monitoring function also differs in this way: During normal
operation a fault is detected when the EGR ratio is above or below
defined limits for a certain period of time.
This applies to the air mass during regeneration of the diesel particulate
filter. In order to monitor the high pressure EGR cooler, the
temperature after the high pressure EGR cooler is measured with
the bypass valve open and close with the engine running at idle
speed. A fault is detected if the temperature difference is below a
certain value.
For the low pressure EGR cooler (only E70), the measured temperature
after the low pressure EGR cooler is compared with a calculate
temperature for this position. A fault is detected if the difference
exceeds a certain value.
Each of these faults is stored reversible. If the fault is determined in
two successive driving cycles, an irreversible fault is stored and the
MIL is activated."
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      01-22-2013, 11:06 AM   #61
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Ok, so Field Service Engineer from BMW is coming to see what is going on with the 335d. Supposedly the tech is not authorized to check for carbon build up unless the procedure is authorized by BMW...they are following the instructions and procedures provided by BMW NA. I hope this time around the car is diagnosed correctly.

Thank god for CPO Warranty and BMW Loaner cars.
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      01-22-2013, 12:37 PM   #62
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About one month ago I had the same problems with carbon buildup and injectors with my 2009 335d with 46k miles. First I was told that it was carbon buildup that turned the SES light. Then I was told that the injectors were leaking. After all was said and done, the dealership ended up replacing the cylinder head, all six injectors, intake and outtake valves and the fuel injector pressure sensor.

Everything was covered under warranty so I didn't have to pay.

I think that these problems will come back in about 40k miles, but I have the CPO warranty until 100k. Once the warranty is done, I will start using diesel additives with cetane boost.
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      01-22-2013, 12:59 PM   #63
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You should also have the new EGR system, that is supposed to prevent this. I guess we will know when your car hits 80k+.

Do you have the TS number for the cylinder head repair? Should be on the receipt.
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      01-23-2013, 08:24 AM   #64
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I will have to find my receipt and check for the TS number. Will get back to you.
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      01-23-2013, 10:37 PM   #65
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Update from my post #49. The diagnostic is that the new injector #2 is bad. I told the SA that there is a possibility of carbon built-up and it is unlikely the problem is the new injector. He agree but cannot check for it. They have to follow the BMW NA protocol and diagnostic, they are replacing injector #2 for a second time. With my permission, they are keeping and driving the car for 2 more days to make sure the fault is cleared this time. In the mean time I got a 2013 X5.
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      01-24-2013, 06:42 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montr View Post
Update from my post #49. The diagnostic is that the new injector #2 is bad. I told the SA that there is a possibility of carbon built-up and it is unlikely the problem is the new injector. He agree but cannot check for it. They have to follow the BMW NA protocol and diagnostic, they are replacing injector #2 for a second time. With my permission, they are keeping and driving the car for 2 more days to make sure the fault is cleared this time. In the mean time I got a 2013 X5.
Yes, unfortunately that is their protocol. First all has to be well (injectors, fuel system, etc.), then you have to get code(s) for "insufficient flow", "smooth running controller" in cyl X. THEN they will start checking for carbon. Time consuming and frustrating process, but that is BMW's diagnostic methods.

Last edited by 135i_vs_; 01-24-2013 at 07:22 AM.
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