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      01-19-2013, 01:12 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
Granted, the numbers shown in the graph below are not the numbers from the fueling system on the N54, but because we don't have a lab to test that specific system, we will use this information as a guideline to show the viability of this solution over a single pump upgrade.



So even on a low restriction system, pumps in series will out perform a single pump by +17%. I think the data speaks for itself and you can find page after page of technical findings that support this solution, so I have to ask, why is everyone so bent on having FFTEC or Shiv provide R&D results that cost money and time when they can be doing something much more productive like finding a solution for the AT issues for upgraded turbo cars. So please take this with a grain of salt as I know you and the other are very knowledgeable, I just don't understand why you keep pressing the issue even though their is supporting data available everywhere you look.
Well there you go. Maybe looking at data for "PC watercooling" wasn't the best set of "lab results" to rely upon.
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      01-19-2013, 02:29 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by ign335i
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
Granted, the numbers shown in the graph below are not the numbers from the fueling system on the N54, but because we don't have a lab to test that specific system, we will use this information as a guideline to show the viability of this solution over a single pump upgrade.



So even on a low restriction system, pumps in series will out perform a single pump by +17%. I think the data speaks for itself and you can find page after page of technical findings that support this solution, so I have to ask, why is everyone so bent on having FFTEC or Shiv provide R&D results that cost money and time when they can be doing something much more productive like finding a solution for the AT issues for upgraded turbo cars. So please take this with a grain of salt as I know you and the other are very knowledgeable, I just don't understand why you keep pressing the issue even though their is supporting data available everywhere you look.
Well there you go. Maybe looking at data for "PC watercooling" wasn't the best set of "lab results" to rely upon.

It's a valid lab result of how pumps work which you have clearly shown you have no clue. Other than a pressure regulator, Terry's testing was in an unrestricted environment and doesn't take into consideration restriction. A pump is a pump. I have always agreed that the walbro upgrade is a great solution for someone who wants to break apart their stock LPFP and replace it with a better pump. Although the FFTEC option cost double, it's plug n play and can be reversed quickly. As the graph indicates and is consistent with Terry's finding. The only thing he left out was the head. Dynamic Chang as pumps have to work harder or have increased restriction. So regardless of what you think or say, we now have three viable options thanks to Tony. I applaud everyone who brought the solution to our platform.

Last edited by Wedge1967; 01-19-2013 at 03:04 PM. Reason: because ing335i is a _______
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      01-19-2013, 02:31 PM   #135
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Just a thought from a non-engineer. While i think the test was good, i don't necessarily think it is conclusive. The test basically measured max flow potential, but the purpose of an upgrade is not to max the system. The purpose is to support x flow requirements. The series test may have been outside the efficiency range, similar to a turbo choking... Its going to overwork itself. A parallel test would be to run all pump options at various flows and then measure current draw. This would be interesting.

As it stands now though i will be purchasing the single pump when needed.
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      01-19-2013, 03:43 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
It's a valid lab result of how pumps work which you have clearly shown you have no clue. Other than a pressure regulator, Terry's testing was in an unrestricted environment and doesn't take into consideration restriction. A pump is a pump. I have always agreed that the walbro upgrade is a great solution for someone who wants to break apart their stock LPFP and replace it with a better pump. Although the FFTEC option cost double, it's plug n play and can be reversed quickly. As the graph indicates and is consistent with Terry's finding. The only thing he left out was the head. Dynamic Chang as pumps have to work harder or have increased restriction. So regardless of what you think or say, we now have three viable options thanks to Tony. I applaud everyone who brought the solution to our platform.
Thanks for chiming in Wedge. You want to keep going down this road, really? The parallel setup outflows by 40%+ at rated pressure. Sure, you can throw more restriction in front of it, but it sure as hell isn't going to make that full 40% flow difference go away. Maybe 10% of it if you're lucky. Again, supply some data ON THIS platform showing what you're saying is correct. Until then you've basically just been blowing hot air, and this data underscores that.
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      01-19-2013, 03:58 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
It's a valid lab result of how pumps work which you have clearly shown you have no clue. Other than a pressure regulator, Terry's testing was in an unrestricted environment and doesn't take into consideration restriction. A pump is a pump. I have always agreed that the walbro upgrade is a great solution for someone who wants to break apart their stock LPFP and replace it with a better pump. Although the FFTEC option cost double, it's plug n play and can be reversed quickly.
Measuring liters per hour of gasoline flow at a fixed pressure is the universtal standard for evaluating fuel pump performance. It was interesting to me that their testing with the walbro pump alone almost exactly matched the figures walbro has published for the same pump. That gives me confidence that the rest of their figures are right in the ball park.

For someone like you who has paid $600 for this FFTEC pump I understand why you feel so strongly for it, but what are your thoughts on the proposed $100 alternative solution? A walbro 255 pump in series that improved the factory pump performance by more than 50%? It goes in just as easily.
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      01-19-2013, 04:20 PM   #138
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have always agreed that the walbro upgrade is a great solution for someone who wants to break apart their stock LPFP and replace it with a better pump. Although the FFTEC option cost double, it's plug n play and can be reversed quickly.
To be fair, the FTEC costs tripple, not double.
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      01-19-2013, 04:29 PM   #139
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To be fair, the FTEC costs tripple, not double.
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      01-19-2013, 06:04 PM   #140
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Looks like FFTEC pump is a big upgrade. It flows a lot more than stock. Well done Vishnu&FFTEC.
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      01-19-2013, 09:48 PM   #141
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Am I to understand that Terry did not use a/the adapter provided with the FFTEC fuel setup?

Curious
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      01-20-2013, 02:07 AM   #142
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Thanks for chiming in Wedge. You want to keep going down this road, really? The parallel setup outflows by 40%+ at rated pressure. Sure, you can throw more restriction in front of it, but it sure as hell isn't going to make that full 40% flow difference go away. Maybe 10% of it if you're lucky. Again, supply some data ON THIS platform showing what you're saying is correct. Until then you've basically just been blowing hot air, and this data underscores that.
You really have no clue do you! Yes Parallel pumps move more volume on low restriction systems, everyone knows that. The test data I provided showed that to be true. So mr smarty pants, what have you told us that I didn't already. You keep talking, but you don't actually provide any real data, just banter.

Put a parallel pump setup on a high restriction system and you may as well be running one pump because you'll still have pressure drops on surge. The chart is going to be the same and you can go find 10 more charts just like this in different senerios that will have the same outcome. So, do you need to sustain pressure or increase volume or both? You seem to know alot, please tell us oh so smart one?

The only solution that does both is series and if you can't see that then you are dumber than I thought you were. Bottom line is we have three options on the table. They are all viable options depending on your needs and we won't know how parallel pumps stack up until someone drops that solution in a car and tests it. I hope it works and can sustain the pressure drops on surge. So before you keep spouting off like you are so smart, why don't you go do some testing and get back to us on how your parellel system works so much better. I recalling you once said or maybe more than once, that a single walbro would out performed the pumps in series. Even Terry's data proved you were wrong. So who is full of hot air?
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      01-20-2013, 02:22 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyMcSass View Post
Measuring liters per hour of gasoline flow at a fixed pressure is the universtal standard for evaluating fuel pump performance. It was interesting to me that their testing with the walbro pump alone almost exactly matched the figures walbro has published for the same pump. That gives me confidence that the rest of their figures are right in the ball park.

For someone like you who has paid $600 for this FFTEC pump I understand why you feel so strongly for it, but what are your thoughts on the proposed $100 alternative solution? A walbro 255 pump in series that improved the factory pump performance by more than 50%? It goes in just as easily.

I only paid $475 and that was installed. At the time, the other option wasn't really on the table. So I will say it again so everyone can hear me one more time, I think all the options we have are viable. I have and will recommend upgrading the walbro single if they want to go that route. If you want a plug and play option and you don't care about the price, then FFTEC has a good solution that works and will maintain pressure under surge. Story is still out on parallel. Because parallel doesn't raise the head, only increases flow. Also as indicated parallel is not recommended in highly restricted systems. So we'll see. I can tell you that the series solution works. That is why feel so stongly about the solution because I'm using it and it works. So when someone tells me it doesn't have to wonder where they got their information. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Regardless everyone will form an opinion, just don't cast doubt on a solution that works just because you don't like the vendor it's associated with.
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      01-20-2013, 02:27 AM   #144
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To be fair, the FTEC costs tripple, not double.
Maybe it does now, but I didn't pay triple. Maybe we need to go into business.
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      01-20-2013, 03:23 AM   #145
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Maybe it does now, but I didn't pay triple. Maybe we need to go into business.
Lol, whatever makes you sleep at night. Fact of the matter is a $180 pump does what you paid $475, $600, $whatever for. Still waiting for your "lab results". Parallel was the way to go, not series. Like I have been saying from page 1.

Last edited by ign335i; 01-20-2013 at 05:25 AM.
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      01-20-2013, 10:16 AM   #146
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I do agree that all options are viable. However, I think the issue is the way Shiv was presenting/ not presenting his information that is making people irate. Shiv was so stuck on his way is the best as seen in his posts and now we have some hard data and people can make there own decisions.

FWIW, I'm glad to see things advancing with the platform and really don't care for the political aspect. So fight on!
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      01-20-2013, 01:13 PM   #147
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Shiv said his solution works well and also Terry has proved it.

It seems some hate it because they hate Shiv. Not too rational. Adding e85 Walbro inline flows more than replacing the stock pump with the e85 Walbro.

Lol at the pricing discussion. If I'd sell a replacement kit with info, support, installation manual, warranty, storage, capital cost requirement for the working capital, credit losses etc I'd ask $500 for it. So please do not compare a kit price to a non-kit price. If you don't have the money or just want to save, you can do the inline kit yourself. This is supposed to be a technical forum, so please get your price discussions elsewhere.
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      01-20-2013, 04:13 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ign335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
Maybe it does now, but I didn't pay triple. Maybe we need to go into business.
Lol, whatever makes you sleep at night. Fact of the matter is a $180 pump does what you paid $475, $600, $whatever for. Still waiting for your "lab results". Parallel was the way to go, not series. Like I have been saying from page 1.
Well, I'm sure I'm not the only person who realizes the fact you have done nothing for this thread other than voice your opinion. You keep saying things like the single Walbro is better than series with no data, then you keep telling everyone parallel is the way to go and NO one has even tested that option. What really is your intention? You came out of the woodwork as if you we're this vast resource of knowledge and you spout off arguing your premises with no valid evidence to support your conclusion. At least I was able to validate the FFTEC solution works and showed lab results from other viable test scenarios to support my evidence beside the fact it fixed my issues. Even BMS results were consistent to the graphs I provided. So if you want to be a productive member and provide fact and not your assumptions that you have provided to date, go buy two pumps and test them in parallel and let everyone know. Until then, I'm sure everyone would appreciate your silence. Btw do you even own a 335?
If so, see you in March at the airfield. I'll buy the first round after.
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      01-20-2013, 04:30 PM   #149
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Wedge is there anyway you can post logs of some 100% E85 and 100% Meth runs? Also of some 100% E85 no meth runs...

No dog in the fight just looking for actual data...
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      01-20-2013, 05:05 PM   #150
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Wedge is there anyway you can post logs of some 100% E85 and 100% Meth runs? Also of some 100% E85 no meth runs...

No dog in the fight just looking for actual data...
Well, it's a little cold outside today for pulling logs and Tuesday it will be raining. Let me see how tomorrow afternoon turns out. My wife is working and the kids will be in school, so I'll try to get out tomorrow afternoon to get a couple of good pulls. What information are you looking for? I'll post it up to the virtual dyno thread because it's a little off topic for this thread.
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      01-20-2013, 05:40 PM   #151
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Well, it's a little cold outside today for pulling logs and Tuesday it will be raining. Let me see how tomorrow afternoon turns out. My wife is working and the kids will be in school, so I'll try to get out tomorrow afternoon to get a couple of good pulls. What information are you looking for? I'll post it up to the virtual dyno thread because it's a little off topic for this thread.
No worries just whenever you get a chance no big rush...Or even if you have any older logs you can just throw up for the time being (as long as its with the same flex fuel/in-line pump setup)

Just looking for boost, timing/corrections, AFR, throttle, and % Ethanol..

By the way thanks in advance and really appreciate it!
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      01-20-2013, 08:10 PM   #152
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I just love how you and others make assumptions as if they are fact, but with no supporting evidence. We all agree the pump alone is cheaper, but how does it perform better than the same pump used by FFTEC in series with the stock pump. Your conclusion is not logical and just goes to show you have no clue as to what you're talking about with regards to this topic. So because you have clearly missed the point and have done nothing but hate on this thread because no one has really stepped up to challenge your flawed logic, please let me bring some valuable information to light because I also wanted to understand this so I did what you and every one else who questioned this solution should have done but apparently are just too lazy to do.

So with our given piping system to the HPFP on the N54, the last thing we want to increase is the restriction as this can quickly cause an increased reduction of flow. So for those who opt to just do the Walbro e85 pump upgrade, please take every step to ensure you do not increase the system restriction by using incorrect fittings and or hoses.

We know the N54 fueling system is restrictive, but without making major modifications to the fueling system, we cannot overcome the restrictions. With that said, lab testing will show that on a restricted system, pumps in series out perform a single pump by +48%. Granted, the numbers shown in the graph below are not the numbers from the fueling system on the N54, but because we don't have a lab to test that specific system, we will use this information as a guideline to show the viability of this solution over a single pump upgrade.



So even on a low restriction system, pumps in series will out perform a single pump by +17%. I think the data speaks for itself and you can find page after page of technical findings that support this solution, so I have to ask, why is everyone so bent on having FFTEC or Shiv provide R&D results that cost money and time when they can be doing something much more productive like finding a solution for the AT issues for upgraded turbo cars. So please take this with a grain of salt as I know you and the other are very knowledgeable, I just don't understand why you keep pressing the issue even though their is supporting data available everywhere you look.
I am sorry, I usually stay out of this and I am in no way taking any sides on any of this. But "bent" on having a company provide R&D results on a product they are making money off of. Thats the whole responsibility of being a vendor selling products. This is exactly why we sold 5 sets stage 2 of turbos at less than cost to the beta testers. So we can provide hard data and R&D before a single thing is shipped at full price. It is the responsibility of the vendor to provide these results if they are selling a product and making claims of what it does. The parallel rig I set up, "SHOULD" work based off the numbers and other parallel systems. But it has no hard data yet and I def wouldn't start selling it. I think Vishnu and FFTEC make great products, but for you to to honestly say they have better things to do then provide hard R&D data on products they are selling is a pretty irresponsible statement if you ask me. Again let me be clear, this is not taking any sides, just think that yes vendors (any vendors) do owe their customers hard R&D data for products they are selling. Just my .02 cents.
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      01-20-2013, 08:11 PM   #153
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I only paid $475 and that was installed. At the time, the other option wasn't really on the table. So I will say it again so everyone can hear me one more time, I think all the options we have are viable. I have and will recommend upgrading the walbro single if they want to go that route. If you want a plug and play option and you don't care about the price, then FFTEC has a good solution that works and will maintain pressure under surge. Story is still out on parallel. Because parallel doesn't raise the head, only increases flow. Also as indicated parallel is not recommended in highly restricted systems. So we'll see. I can tell you that the series solution works. That is why feel so stongly about the solution because I'm using it and it works. So when someone tells me it doesn't have to wonder where they got their information. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Regardless everyone will form an opinion, just don't cast doubt on a solution that works just because you don't like the vendor it's associated with.
That sounds reasonable at $475 installed, labor alone is probably $200. If the price was $275 for the FFTEC kit then I think more would consider it. The fuel pump goes for $180 with the install kit. Paying $100 for extra fuel lines and such seems reasonable but paying $400+ seems very excessive to me.

I suspect that any minor low pressure upgrade would be enough to support original turbos. Once you upgrade the turbos the parallel setup is probably going to be the best way to go. Since you already own the pump if you ever want to switch it sounds like you will need only change around a couple of your fuel lines.
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      01-20-2013, 08:13 PM   #154
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Looks like FFTEC pump is a big upgrade. It flows a lot more than stock. Well done Vishnu&FFTEC.
It flows much less than the gains promised in this first post but it does flow better than factory. Testing showed a lot of currant usage with dual pumps. How is this setup powered? Any concern with fuel heating up?
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