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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > LPFP Tech info



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      01-20-2013, 08:23 PM   #155
Tony@vargasturbotech
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyMcSass View Post
It flows much less than the gains promised in this first post but it does flow better than factory. Testing showed a lot of currant usage with dual umps. How is this setup powered? Any concern with fuel heating up?
Pulling a lot of amps has nothing to do with heating the fuel. It only has to do with the wiring. If you pull too many amps with too small a gauge of wiring, you can expect at the least popped fuses, and in extreme cases where for some reason the fuse doesn't pop the wires can heat up to the point of melting and causing an electrical fire. At no point will this heat up the fuel
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      01-20-2013, 09:30 PM   #156
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Pumps in parallel at full power will definitely heat fuel. Not that heating is always a bad thing ... just saying that it happens.
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      01-20-2013, 10:06 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by trbolexis View Post
Pumps in parallel at full power will definitely heat fuel. Not that heating is always a bad thing ... just saying that it happens.
Yes, that is true, but go ahead and read his question. He is asking if the amperage draw is going to heat the fuel. The answer is a resounding no. Yes running parallel pumps can see some fuel heating, but again. Not what he was asking.
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      01-20-2013, 10:22 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
I am sorry, I usually stay out of this and I am in no way taking any sides on any of this. But "bent" on having a company provide R&D results on a product they are making money off of. Thats the whole responsibility of being a vendor selling products. This is exactly why we sold 5 sets stage 2 of turbos at less than cost to the beta testers. So we can provide hard data and R&D before a single thing is shipped at full price. It is the responsibility of the vendor to provide these results if they are selling a product and making claims of what it does. The parallel rig I set up, "SHOULD" work based off the numbers and other parallel systems. But it has no hard data yet and I def wouldn't start selling it. I think Vishnu and FFTEC make great products, but for you to to honestly say they have better things to do then provide hard R&D data on products they are selling is a pretty irresponsible statement if you ask me. Again let me be clear, this is not taking any sides, just think that yes vendors (any vendors) do owe their customers hard R&D data for products they are selling. Just my .02 cents.
I agree, but this pump is running in more than just my car with positive results and my car wasn't the first to get this pump. So the pump was well tested before it was released. I think they could have done a better job of marketing the pump and providing information which could have dispelled a lot of the negative banter that proceeded their announcement on the forum.

As the graph I provided indicates, the higher the restriction, the better pumps in series will perform in comparison to single and parallel. The one thing that most people haven't taken into consideration is surge. If the surge doesn't exceed what a single pump can provide, then parallel pumps will deliver the volume. If not, then the only option is series. Just depends on how restrictive our system truly is. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how the parallel pumps perform in a car that is having LPFP issues.

I find it funny that after 20 years, I'm back to running fuel pumps in series. I had a booster pump on my '93 MR2.
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      01-20-2013, 10:43 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyMcSass View Post
That sounds reasonable at $475 installed, labor alone is probably $200. If the price was $275 for the FFTEC kit then I think more would consider it. The fuel pump goes for $180 with the install kit. Paying $100 for extra fuel lines and such seems reasonable but paying $400+ seems very excessive to me.

I suspect that any minor low pressure upgrade would be enough to support original turbos. Once you upgrade the turbos the parallel setup is probably going to be the best way to go. Since you already own the pump if you ever want to switch it sounds like you will need only change around a couple of your fuel lines.
If FFTEC had market knowledge that every member on the forum would buy this product, they could probably knock $100 per unit off and still make a profit. Unfortunately that isn't the case. Like any company, they are in the business of making money. So I don't fault them for wanting to make back the money they spend in R&D not to mention making a profit. I'm just happy they took the time to provide a solution because if it wasn't for companies like Vishnu, BMS, RB, Vargas, COBB... where would we be today? Don't you think that a set of AR DPs is a little over the top at $800? People still buy them even when you can get VRSF's for $300. Bottom line is we all have options. Options are good.
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      01-20-2013, 10:58 PM   #160
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Honestly no idea why you have picked up the torch and have taken it upon yourself to be the knight for this pump upgrade. I honestly think it works. But for the flow you are getting it is way overpriced. But everyone in business is in business to make money. But if you are going to charge triple what anyone with an internet connection can get the pump for, there should be some hard numbers and facts as to why. Look into any high horsepower platform and, they either run one massive pump or two pumps in parallel. Booster pumps and pumps in series have always been and always will be a band-aid approach. They work don't get me wrong but if its being touted as the "solution" then I might not agree. Take a look at this graph, sure pumps in series hold up better in higher pressure, but we do need to run higher pressures, we are looking for flow. In that case series do not hold a candle to a parallel set up. With that I am signing out of this discussion. I think all this talk is good for the platform and its coming along nicely.
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      01-21-2013, 06:02 AM   #161
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I am confused as to how we are going to make more flow work for us? I mean this LPFP feeds a mechanically driven HPFP right? Isn't being sure we maintain pressure more important? There is no return system. So say you are running your parallel pumps and you flow 50% more fuel where does th excess go?
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      01-21-2013, 09:42 AM   #162
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i know im new here, but not new to making hp. i have always ran domestic cars. both of my car i built i have ran e85. Maybe someone could contact a domestic vendor and maybe we could get them to look at building a billet hat for a larger singe, or dual pump set up. here is a link to the guys doing a lot for the ford/ls guys with nice plug and play setups.

i have no idea if they would be willing to get into something like this, but they make nice drop in, plug and play fuel hats and direct upgraded wiring harness for the high amp draws of larger pumps.

http://www.foreinnovations.com/product_p/3-900.htm
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      01-21-2013, 09:46 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUIVIA
I am confused as to how we are going to make more flow work for us? I mean this LPFP feeds a mechanically driven HPFP right? Isn't being sure we maintain pressure more important? There is no return system. So say you are running your parallel pumps and you flow 50% more fuel where does th excess go?
There is a fuel pressure regulator in the driver side of the fuel tank. It bleeds excess pressure back into the tank and maintains 72psi of line pressure.
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      01-21-2013, 01:32 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Honestly no idea why you have picked up the torch and have taken it upon yourself to be the knight for this pump upgrade. I honestly think it works. But for the flow you are getting it is way overpriced. But everyone in business is in business to make money. But if you are going to charge triple what anyone with an internet connection can get the pump for, there should be some hard numbers and facts as to why. Look into any high horsepower platform and, they either run one massive pump or two pumps in parallel. Booster pumps and pumps in series have always been and always will be a band-aid approach. They work don't get me wrong but if its being touted as the "solution" then I might not agree. Take a look at this graph, sure pumps in series hold up better in higher pressure, but we do need to run higher pressures, we are looking for flow. In that case series do not hold a candle to a parallel set up. With that I am signing out of this discussion. I think all this talk is good for the platform and its coming along nicely.
We all need to stand for something. Can't let hate dictate progress. I agree it's overpriced today, but at the time I was ok with paying $475 which included install. It fixed my issues and hopefully it will keep up when I upgrade turbos. I think parallel pumps will also be a good option as long as they can keep up with pressure drops at surge. Wish I had the time and money to do the R&D. Good luck with testing. Really looking forward to seeing the outcome. The pictures of your parallel pump setup looked promising.
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      01-21-2013, 01:45 PM   #165
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Ok so once you get downstream (up?) of the tank you can't flow more than what the injection system allows? Why all this sudden need for excess flow? I thought the reason for upgrading the pump was because the pressure drops out.
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      01-21-2013, 01:58 PM   #166
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not needed for stock configuration...but a tuned car running 400whp and up needs both the added flow and pressure to properly feed the hpfp inlet

Quote:
Originally Posted by PUIVIA View Post
Ok so once you get downstream (up?) of the tank you can't flow more than what the injection system allows? Why all this sudden need for excess flow? I thought the reason for upgrading the pump was because the pressure drops out.
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      01-21-2013, 03:31 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech
Quote:
Originally Posted by trbolexis View Post
Pumps in parallel at full power will definitely heat fuel. Not that heating is always a bad thing ... just saying that it happens.
Yes, that is true, but go ahead and read his question. He is asking if the amperage draw is going to heat the fuel. The answer is a resounding no. Yes running parallel pumps can see some fuel heating, but again. Not what he was asking.
More current drawn by the same pump means more power wasted as heat in its electric motor. It is nowhere close to 100% efficient at converting electric energy into mechanical energy.
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      01-21-2013, 03:46 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUIVIA View Post
Ok so once you get downstream (up?) of the tank you can't flow more than what the injection system allows? Why all this sudden need for excess flow? I thought the reason for upgrading the pump was because the pressure drops out.
Why is the pressure dropping? Because there isn't enough flow out of the stock setup. If you are increasing horsepower you are increasing air flow which means you need to increase fuel flow to hit your lambdas. None of this requires you to need more pressure. The pressure is dropping at these flow rates because the stock pump has hit a flow wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kentgbr View Post
More current drawn by the same pump means more power wasted as heat in its electric motor. It is nowhere close to 100% efficient at converting electric energy into mechanical energy.
I think Tony knows the fuel is receiving heat. The point is it is such a miniscule amount that you probably wouldn't even be able to measure a difference in temperature.
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      01-21-2013, 03:49 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
We all need to stand for something. Can't let hate dictate progress. I agree it's overpriced today, but at the time I was ok with paying $475 which included install. It fixed my issues and hopefully it will keep up when I upgrade turbos. I think parallel pumps will also be a good option as long as they can keep up with pressure drops at surge. Wish I had the time and money to do the R&D. Good luck with testing. Really looking forward to seeing the outcome. The pictures of your parallel pump setup looked promising.
Hate dictate progress? Why don't you let fact dictate progress rather than trying to stifle it by injecting BS about the physics and realities of these pumps and their performance? All anyone wanted was data, now that we got it, the results are pretty clear. The FFTEC setup is not the best way to make use of 2 pumps and can even be out performed with a single pump costing 1/3 as much you restrict the venturi.
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      01-21-2013, 05:18 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ign335i View Post
Hate dictate progress? Why don't you let fact dictate progress rather than trying to stifle it by injecting BS about the physics and realities of these pumps and their performance? All anyone wanted was data, now that we got it, the results are pretty clear. The FFTEC setup is not the best way to make use of 2 pumps and can even be out performed with a single pump costing 1/3 as much you restrict the venturi.

What did you bring to the table? Assumptions? Who was stifling? Obviously you were by claiming the single Walbro would outperform the series pumps. You did say that multiple times didn't you? Pumps in a tub tells me a whole lot of information. Will the single handle a surge without pressure drop? I hope so, but until someone puts this in their car and tunes with 100% e85 and pulls through multiple gears with aggressive boost and timing, I don't think we have conclusive data. I hope it works. We need a cost effective solution. So stop the childish banter with your coat-tail assumptions.
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      01-21-2013, 05:35 PM   #171
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Why hasn't anyone pointed out the flaws in Terry's test yet?
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      01-21-2013, 06:12 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W.
Why hasn't anyone pointed out the flaws in Terry's test yet?
As someone who doesn't know too much about the fuel system, I would like to hear why his tests are flawed, genuinely.
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      01-21-2013, 06:40 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
Why hasn't anyone pointed out the flaws in Terry's test yet?
AMS and BMS both posted test results showing the same behaviors with minimal salesmanship while FFTEC posted flow numbers with heavy salesmenship and no testing at all to back them up. Clearly this is a BMS problem.
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      01-21-2013, 06:57 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Honestly no idea why you have picked up the torch and have taken it upon yourself to be the knight for this pump upgrade. I honestly think it works. But for the flow you are getting it is way overpriced. But everyone in business is in business to make money. But if you are going to charge triple what anyone with an internet connection can get the pump for, there should be some hard numbers and facts as to why. Look into any high horsepower platform and, they either run one massive pump or two pumps in parallel. Booster pumps and pumps in series have always been and always will be a band-aid approach. They work don't get me wrong but if its being touted as the "solution" then I might not agree. Take a look at this graph, sure pumps in series hold up better in higher pressure, but we do need to run higher pressures, we are looking for flow. In that case series do not hold a candle to a parallel set up. With that I am signing out of this discussion. I think all this talk is good for the platform and its coming along nicely.
lol @ Chewbacca says. Sounds like these fuel pumps have been tested on other platforms as well. Even at 95psi, much more than we would ever run, parallel wins for dual pump configurations.

Mike
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      01-21-2013, 07:07 PM   #175
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In order for a pump system to be effective it has to be able to provide the required pressure, aka head, at the required flow rate. Any upgrade has to be able to handle both of these otherwise it is not adequate.

A series setup is typically used to boost the pressure of the system without specific regard to increasing flow - not that it can't be used that way though. Parallel setups are used to increase flow. For a given increase in flow, or a "surge," a series setup will typically lose more pressure than a parallel setup. Now if it can lose pressure but still meet requirements, then no big deal. But there are also efficiency curves and all that to take into account as well.

That's my two cents from some basic courses in water sanitation and pump selection.
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      01-21-2013, 07:54 PM   #176
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A few questions I had in mind after reading so many posts were:

1. What are significant disadvantages/tradeoffs of going the Vishnu/FFTEC setup other than the price?

2. What are significant disadvantages/tradeoffs of going the BMS setup other than the fact that you need to DIY?

3. Other than the reasons of price/convenience why would you choose one setup over another?

4. Is the Vishnu setup a quality product and is there a warranty that comes with their pump?

Can someone take the time to answer these questions in a simple and understandable way, or summarize some conclusions from the last 8 pages of discussion in terms of fuel pump upgrade options pros and cons.

Thanks in advance!
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