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      01-26-2013, 09:55 AM   #1
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Bad fuel epidemic killing injectors...

I thought was interesting in light of some of the reports of failing injectors.





How diesel fuel injectors work...


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      01-26-2013, 11:25 AM   #2
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Nice post, cssnms. Thanks for the vids!
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      01-26-2013, 12:25 PM   #3
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Man seeing that first video on fuel quality has been an ongoing fear of mine for a quite a few years. I've always tried to frequent high volume diesel stations only, because of it. However apparently its worse then I thought. :/

Either way, it would be great if we had a drainage system in place instead of having to retrofit our own. I'm surprised with the dual filter setup fords have they see this many issues. My TDI I used to own was rock solid, and I've never heard of a contamination issue from dirt or water from my years at TDIclub, just the ole friend/wife/dealership gas in the tank ordeal.

I've seen nozzle vids before, however not the actual spraying to see the patterns. Very cool!
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      01-26-2013, 01:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Built4Sin View Post
Man seeing that first video on fuel quality has been an ongoing fear of mine for a quite a few years. I've always tried to frequent high volume diesel stations only, because of it. However apparently its worse then I thought. :/

Either way, it would be great if we had a drainage system in place instead of having to retrofit our own. I'm surprised with the dual filter setup fords have they see this many issues. My TDI I used to own was rock solid, and I've never heard of a contamination issue from dirt or water from my years at TDIclub, just the ole friend/wife/dealership gas in the tank ordeal.

I've seen nozzle vids before, however not the actual spraying to see the patterns. Very cool!
Yea can you imagine if water is getting by the Ford fuel/water seperators/filters that it is most certainly getting by our filter.

I am really going to consider using Diesel Clear every few tanks.

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      01-26-2013, 02:03 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Built4Sin View Post
Man seeing that first video on fuel quality has been an ongoing fear of mine for a quite a few years. I've always tried to frequent high volume diesel stations only, because of it. However apparently its worse then I thought. :/

Either way, it would be great if we had a drainage system in place instead of having to retrofit our own. I'm surprised with the dual filter setup fords have they see this many issues. My TDI I used to own was rock solid, and I've never heard of a contamination issue from dirt or water from my years at TDIclub, just the ole friend/wife/dealership gas in the tank ordeal.

I've seen nozzle vids before, however not the actual spraying to see the patterns. Very cool!
Yea can you imagine if water is getting by the Ford fuel/water seperators/filters that it is most certainly getting by our filter.

I am really going to consider using Diesel Kleen 911 every few tanks.

I too am stepping up my vigilance and use of the best fuel I can find. But you cannot help but notice that the primary fuel filter on that Ford had not been maintained. The best filters in the world have to be maintained. Do you suppose we should be changing our fuel filters more often than recommended? Is that a simple DIY?
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      01-26-2013, 02:26 PM   #6
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As long as you ensure that the dealer is changing the filter every TWO oil changes as stated in their service docs, I would think this would be sufficient as far as he stock filter goes. They will try to tel, you that it is every three because of the 335i schedule, but this is not the case for the diesel. Unfortunately, additional filtration may be the only way to attempt to prevent the major stuff from getting through.
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      01-26-2013, 02:59 PM   #7
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I just ordered some PS Clear-Diesel Fuel & Tank Cleaner from Amazon.
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      01-26-2013, 04:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Yea can you imagine if water is getting by the Ford fuel/water seperators/filters that it is most certainly getting by our filter.

I am really going to consider using Diesel Kleen 911 every few tanks.
I use the power service every fill up. However I don't remember the 911 doing much other then breaking up the paraffin after its gelled.

I'll have to look it up again.

----------

http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

TO REMOVE WATER AND PREVENT FUEL-FILTER ICING: Refer to the table below to determine the amount of Diesel 911 to add to your fuel. For biodiesel blends containing a maximum of 20% biodiesel (B20), add two times the amount of additive listed below:

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      01-26-2013, 05:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
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I use the power service every fill up. However I don't remember the 911 doing much other then breaking up the paraffin after its gelled.

I'll have to look it up again.

----------

http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

TO REMOVE WATER AND PREVENT FUEL-FILTER ICING: Refer to the table below to determine the amount of Diesel 911 to add to your fuel. For biodiesel blends containing a maximum of 20% biodiesel (B20), add two times the amount of additive listed below:
Sorry I was referring to PS Clear Diesel. If you are using PS Diesel Kleen it is advisable that you use Clear Diesel every 4th tank as the Diesel Clean has an emulsifier and could cause your tank to have water bottom. Diesel Clear will get rid of any water that accumulates in your tank.
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      01-27-2013, 01:01 AM   #10
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What are your thought on this regimen?...
Winter months: PS diesel fuel supplement + cetane
Spring, summer fall: PS Diesel Kleen + Cetane
Every four tanks: diesel clear
Every oil change (7kmi): BG 244
Induction service/walnut blast every 50k(?)
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      01-27-2013, 08:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by FormerRotor
What are your thought on this regimen?...
Winter months: PS diesel fuel supplement + cetane
Spring, summer fall: PS Diesel Kleen + Cetane
Every four tanks: diesel clear
Every oil change (7kmi): BG 244
Induction service/walnut blast every 50k(?)
Sounds good to me. I would probably do the walnut blasting at 40k and evaluate the conditions prior to the blast, so as to tweak the interval if necessary.

What is BG 244?
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      01-27-2013, 08:38 AM   #12
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Very informative thanks for posting.
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      01-27-2013, 08:50 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Sounds good to me. I would probably do the walnut blasting at 40k and evaluate the conditions prior to the blast, so as to tweak the interval if necessary.

What is BG 244?
Good point dFan.

244 is BGs diesel equivalant of 44k (common gas additive). I've been impressed by 44kin the past, so I figured its worth a shot. They are an industry leader in induction services and so on (and many dealers use their products when they get stuck on diagnoses).

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Originally Posted by Persian Whisperjet View Post
Very informative thanks for posting.
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      01-27-2013, 09:17 AM   #14
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I am due for a filter replacement at my next service visit. I plan to take a photo of the filter and will post it.
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      01-27-2013, 09:31 AM   #15
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I am due for a filter replacement at my next service visit. I plan to take a photo of the filter and will post it.
Nice. Thanks, cssnms. It didn't even occur to me to do this when I had mine changed
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      01-27-2013, 02:47 PM   #16
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does anyone know how to change the fuel filter on our own? I know VW you need a computer to purge the system and you have to fill it with diesel when you replace it.
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      01-27-2013, 05:02 PM   #17
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does anyone know how to change the fuel filter on our own? I know VW you need a computer to purge the system and you have to fill it with diesel when you replace it.
You have to turn ON the ignition without starting the car (ie do not press the brake pedal). This turn ON the low pressure fuel pump and purge the air in the system in about 1 min.
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      01-27-2013, 05:32 PM   #18
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You have to turn ON the ignition without starting the car (ie do not press the brake pedal). This turn ON the low pressure fuel pump and purge the air in the system in about 1 min.
Awesome thanks! Not that hard to do it seems.
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      01-27-2013, 06:13 PM   #19
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Here are a few threads that may be helpful to those in the community who are interested in how to deal with and improve our bmw diesels filtration system.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=461450

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=657530

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=776965

It should be noted that the only way I have been able to initiate the fuel system to engage the low pressure pump to flush a new filter is with the Bavarian Technic tool. Using the start/stop button does not work on my car. And since the HPFP is lubricated by the fuel, if you change your filter and do not prime the system you will be running it dry until it gets fuel in there (a very, very bad thing to do for the health of the HPFP). You can tell if the system isn't primed properly if you have to "crank" it more than normal before the engine fires up. If the system is properly primed it will start without delay just like a normal start.
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      01-28-2013, 10:16 AM   #20
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An informational post from Power Service taken from TDI Forums....

There is a lot of debate and a lot of misinformation going on. Some of our competitors will take shots at us through the chat rooms and this really causes a lot of confusion as they well intend to do.

This is going to be a long answer to your question, however if you do not understand what a emulsifier, demulsifier and a solubilizer are then you will never be able to settle any questions or debates over their use. The short answer is that our Diesel Fuel Supplement and Diesel Kleen contains neither a demulsifier or emulsifier. Please read the following for a complete answer and the reasons.

A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has dissolved water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel, in a dissolved form will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur when the temperatures become severe.

An emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small water droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Also, as the temperatures drop water in the fuel can fall out depending on how much water is in the fuel and how cold it gets, which adds to water problems. Often these water droplets will freeze before they hit the filter and since almost all diesel vehicles have water separators this will also cause Fuel Filter Icing. In the summer months water is not as great of a problem since most filters have a valve so you can drain off any free water on the bottom of the fuel filter, however it should be noted that there is not a perfect filter and all filters will allow some of this emulsified water to pass. As long as only small amounts of this emulsified water get pass the filter this most often doesn't cause a problem. Ford and Chevy are the ones that are having the most problems with emulsified water. It doesn't take much of this emulsified water to cause injector damage in their vehicles and this is why they are very firm that one does not use any product that causes emulsification of the water.

Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow or also hit the filter and freeze. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel you are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.

A solubilizer works in a little different way than the other two. It will take the water and solubilize or dissolve it back into the fuel. When this happens you will not have water droplets suspended in the fuel and when you look at the fuel it will be clear and not cloudy. This is the preferred method to get free water out of the system and to keep the water that is in the fuel from falling out. The only problem with a solubilizer is that it works on small amounts of water at a time. This means that if you have a water problem and it is not sever a water solubilizer can work very well, will be effective and will cause no hurt or harm in the system. If you have a sever problem then one treatment will not solve the problem. Solubilizers are meant to work slowly and not to cause the fuel to be overloaded with water. If you know that you have a lot of free water in a fuel system then you should drain or pump the water off and then use a water solubilizer. The good news is that in most cases in motor vehicles water is usually at low levels and a solubilizer usually works very well.

Our Diesel Fuel Supplement (DFS) contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out and to help reduce the likelihood of Filter Icing. Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. The deicer in DFS can also help to solubilize small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement. So, DFS is neither a demulsifier or an emulsifier.

Diesel Kleen is a non-winter additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injector to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions and improve engine performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. I would recommend using Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months because it has more injector cleaner and cetane boost than the Diesel Fuel Supplement. It will help with a water problem and will also solubilize small amounts of water. It is not a quick fix for a lot of free water.

Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets. Diesel 911 also contains a lubricity package to help increase the fuels lubricity since water can adversely affect lubricity. It is not a quick fix but it will solubilize a lot more water than DFS or Diesel Kleen.

There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate in their container. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911.

If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to get the water under control and then use the Diesel Fuel Supplement for the winter months and the Diesel Kleen for non-winter months. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the winter temperatures can be severe then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. As stated earlier, all fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water in a vehicle. Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem.

Diesel 911 does not contain any methyl or ethyl alcohols. It is a proprietary mixture containing Hydroxyl Compounds. These de-icers are used in many diesel fuel additives that are currently on the market. You should use the Diesel 911 only when you have a water problem. Some engine manufacturers do not recommend the use of deicers on a regular basis but only when you have a water problem.

As for you last question about DFS, there are no negative impacts on a diesel engine where the temperatures never go below 60 degrees F. In this situation I would suggest using Diesel Kleen, not because DFS may cause any harm but because Diesel Kleen has more detergents and Cetane Boost which will benefit the motor more by cleaning the injectors better, give better engine performance and better fuel economy. Diesel Kleen also will do a better job on reducing emissions and has a better stability package. When you use Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months you will simply get more benefits for your money.

This is a lot of information to cover so if you want to go over any points in more detail please give me a call or email me and Thanks for giving us the opportunity answer these important questions.

Best regards,

Brian Wilson
Technical Advisor
Compliance Coordinator
(800)643-9089
bwilson@powerservice.com

Power Service Products, Inc.


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=35

Last edited by cssnms; 01-28-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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      01-28-2013, 11:31 AM   #21
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Interesting that he does not mention the product PS Clear-Diesel Tank & Fuel Cleaner.
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      01-28-2013, 11:48 AM   #22
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Interesting that he does not mention the product PS Clear-Diesel Tank & Fuel Cleaner.
This was a post from 2010 so perhaps Clear Diesel was not in their product line-up at the time.

Further Brian went on to say Diesel Kleen does not contain an emulsifier/demusisfier. However in a recent e-mail to me he stated the opposite. So either the formula changed or he misspoke in the TDI post or in the email to me - I will ask him to clarify.
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