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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Track prep questions from brand new '13 335is owner and HPDE enthusiast



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      01-17-2013, 08:36 PM   #23
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Not that it's the only concern, but which option has the lower initial cash outlay? (Meth vs enhanced external cooling)
Meth, in theory, as you would 'only' need to have a meth set up, HSF-4 by Aquamist seems to be popular without a tune integration, as well as a charge pipe.
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      01-17-2013, 08:53 PM   #24
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What about the base snow kit from ER?
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      01-17-2013, 09:45 PM   #25
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Very interesting approach that I'll look into as well. Though I don't want to run catless DPs for pesky VA emissions regs.

What race pads did you run? I'm considering many options, including Carbotechs but those are not friendly with racingbrake rotors so would have either run another rotor brand, or stick with OEM. Other pad options are Project Mu, Hawk, and Racingbrake's own XT compound.
Cool carbon brakes from BavAuto have been excellent.. Low heat, little brake dust event with slotted and drilled rotors, and also quite. they are great for track and road use. Brakes in the 335's are very capable, so I would upgrade the rotors for better cooling (x-drilled and/or slotted) and put cool carbons on it..
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      01-18-2013, 06:31 AM   #26
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Based on reviews it seems the cool carbons give up the ghost eventually and start to judder when overheated, which I want to avoid. I'm probably going to run dedicated abrasive (when cold) race pads for track day weekends.

As for rotors, does anyone feel that two-pieces are a significant benefit on our cars over one-piece jobs in the thermal dept (obviously they are lighter)? I'm not aware whether OEM rotors use straight or curved vanes, so that's a big factor in the comparison.
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      01-18-2013, 08:34 AM   #27
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Welcome, an LSD should be at the top of your list!
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      01-18-2013, 10:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by boostaholic786 View Post
I think this ^ would be the ideal setup seeing as you really need to focus on keeping you IAT's and oil temps down. Methanol injection is very safe and basically rocks for power AND cooling. If you are tracking the car I think that Methanol Injection should be in your top things to do... And make sure you do a proper rear trunk mount setup not the bull crap Windshield Wiper kit due to potential spilling or even Methanol vapors that can catch fire Def rear trunk mount is way to go!
Thanks for clarifying...yes a trunk mount is a necessity. I would add that 50/50 is the best ratio for the track because it's actually the water that cools the IATs...the meth provides for octane enhancement.

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Ah, crap. I was going off of the ER site and assumed the DCT is considered an automatic.

So what does that mean in terms of buying a complete replacement diff assembly? Do I need the conversion kit too?
Any reputable shop that does diff work can look up whether yours is bolted or welded. There's a vendor here on bimmerpost that can help you - HP Autoworks.

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Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
Not that it's the only concern, but which option has the lower initial cash outlay? (Meth vs enhanced external cooling)
I would go with the tune/meth combination. The Procede is more expensive than the BMS kit and I think both are WW mount so you would have to do the trunk conversion.

Procede + meth is around $2K and the BMS is half that.

Which tune is best? I'm not going there...Both Terry and Shiv and good friends of mine...but for tracking I believe the Procede has an advantage given the flexibility of creating your own customized boost profile. This is key at the track where you don't want the onset of a massive power spike to upset the car. With the Procede, you can make a linear boost curve and datalog until you find the perfect set up for the track. You can have as much boost or a little as you want at any RPM. I created a track "curve" where my boost was linear from idle (5psi) to redline (16psi).
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      01-18-2013, 11:24 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
Based on reviews it seems the cool carbons give up the ghost eventually and start to judder when overheated, which I want to avoid. I'm probably going to run dedicated abrasive (when cold) race pads for track day weekends.

As for rotors, does anyone feel that two-pieces are a significant benefit on our cars over one-piece jobs in the thermal dept (obviously they are lighter)? I'm not aware whether OEM rotors use straight or curved vanes, so that's a big factor in the comparison.
Cool carbon pads are great for the street, but if you've ever done HPDE before, and push your car and braking zones. They will give out, they vibrate, fade, and would not recommend them for the track. They're good for beginners and that's about it.

I do use them for my street pads though, low dust, hardly any noise, and stop great with awesome stopping power (in street terms).


I've used Hawk DTC-70/60 combo, but for the price, I don't think they last long enough. Maybe 2-3 weekends or 4-5 days of hard HDPEs. Now I"m using Carbotechs XP16/12 combo, and so far I love them, they do have allot of torque so it depends on driving style. Will be trying the RS-29 Pagids once these go to test them out.
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      01-18-2013, 11:47 AM   #30
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Yeah I'm a pretty aggressive braker on the track so i will need full race pads. What i don't have a feeling for is if the stock rotors will have the thermal capacity. If i do race pads, fluid, and maybe a ti shim setup, would that be enough to withstand the heat? Or do i need to look into a bbk?
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      01-18-2013, 11:49 AM   #31
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Do you run ct bobcats on the street to take advantage of the mutual transfer layer compatibility?
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      01-18-2013, 11:52 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
Yeah I'm a pretty aggressive braker on the track so i will need full race pads. What i don't have a feeling for is if the stock rotors will have the thermal capacity. If i do race pads, fluid, and maybe a ti shim setup, would that be enough to withstand the heat? Or do i need to look into a bbk?
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Do you run ct bobcats on the street to take advantage of the mutual transfer layer compatibility?
I run stock rotors for the street, and have a set of EBC Sport Rotors (slotted) for the track, they've held up just fine. No warping, vibrations, heat transfer is fine, I do have titanium shims for the front calipers.
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      01-28-2013, 08:33 AM   #33
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Well, the first track prep (and DD) mod has been purchased...

245/35ZR-19 Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL
275/30ZR-19 Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL

Some real meat with actual bump compliance will be nice on the street, too!


Other decisions are to run An Aquamist HFS-4 standalone for now, until I get my LSD since I will be traction limited...
And I will be springing for an OS Giken LSD most likely... $500 more is worth it IMO for the advantages in DD smoothness.
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      01-28-2013, 09:05 AM   #34
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On that note, any recommendations on charge pipes since I have a choice now (not going Vishnu meth).
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      01-28-2013, 09:39 AM   #35
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      01-28-2013, 11:26 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
Well, the first track prep (and DD) mod has been purchased...

245/35ZR-19 Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL
275/30ZR-19 Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL

Some real meat with actual bump compliance will be nice on the street, too!


Other decisions are to run An Aquamist HFS-4 standalone for now, until I get my LSD since I will be traction limited...
And I will be springing for an OS Giken LSD most likely... $500 more is worth it IMO for the advantages in DD smoothness.
id pass on the aquamist for this car if im honest.

if you run one of the piggy backs, you will have probably the best use of methanol you can.

also, another option is to run a Cobb tune with a JB4 (they go for cheap used), as a methanol controller, direct access to your ecu, and you'll catch a problem a lot quicker than you would with an aqua mist.

im running JB4 G5 board on my car, and it catches and auto tunes during my track days.

also, are you lowering the car? the LSD is helpful, but if you are gonna be aggressive on the track, you might want to think of running some m3 Components. http://hpashop.com/BMW-E8X-E9X-to-M3...conversion.htm


hpa, has some great kits for the suspension, immensely knowledgeable people, and will give you an honest assessment of what you car needs.
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      01-28-2013, 12:49 PM   #37
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Why don't u get the cp-e intercooler as it comes with an additional oil cooler. That's the one I have. Been tracking my car and no limp/heat soak problems.

Stock calipers are good enough. So just buy street/race pads, better brake fluid and stainless steel brake lines.

U definitely need a good coilover. Get TC Kline with camber plates. That's what I have and very happy. Great performance for price and u can pick your spring rate unlike others

I actually have a set of Endless race pads for sale and stoptech ss lines also, as I bought a stoptech BBK for a good price lately. PM me if interested.
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      01-28-2013, 01:47 PM   #38
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id pass on the aquamist for this car if im honest.

if you run one of the piggy backs, you will have probably the best use of methanol you can.

also, another option is to run a Cobb tune with a JB4 (they go for cheap used), as a methanol controller, direct access to your ecu, and you'll catch a problem a lot quicker than you would with an aqua mist.

im running JB4 G5 board on my car, and it catches and auto tunes during my track days.

also, are you lowering the car? the LSD is helpful, but if you are gonna be aggressive on the track, you might want to think of running some m3 Components. http://hpashop.com/BMW-E8X-E9X-to-M3...conversion.htm


hpa, has some great kits for the suspension, immensely knowledgeable people, and will give you an honest assessment of what you car needs.
Can you talk a little more about why you are against a standalone aquamist, other than the obvious lack of integration (I am aware it has the capability)? Is yours an argument against the efficacy of the Aquamist controller, or simply that you don't recommend a standalone option? If I went standalone, I would plan on running stock boost and timing, etc. Thanks

I don't have plans to lower my car, though I may get my hands on some Koni FSDs or Bilstein adjustable shocks if I have the spare coin. Unless/until I become adequately proficient, I doubt I am skilled enough to benefit from corner weighting so I'm not in the market for coils just yet, and I'm happy with the stock ride height.

As for the M3 bushings, yeah I will probably end up doing that too, but I see that as a stage two or three mod for me. I like to mod in stages and as my skill/awareness of the car increases, so that I can really articulate my need for the mod, and feel the results- that's just me. But, that being said, if the handling is truly horrific because of the soft rubber, I may do it sooner.

My intent for my first outing is to make the car trackable from a thermal stability and safety standpoint. Then I will focus on performance adders as I identify the weaknesses according to my driving style (again, barring truly limiting issues like traction and the case for an LSD).
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      01-28-2013, 01:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
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Why don't u get the cp-e intercooler as it comes with an additional oil cooler. That's the one I have. Been tracking my car and no limp/heat soak problems.

Stock calipers are good enough. So just buy street/race pads, better brake fluid and stainless steel brake lines.

U definitely need a good coilover. Get TC Kline with camber plates. That's what I have and very happy. Great performance for price and u can pick your spring rate unlike others

I actually have a set of Endless race pads for sale and stoptech ss lines also, as I bought a stoptech BBK for a good price lately. PM me if interested.
Indeed, that was essentially what I set out planning to do, but the wise folks here convinced me that meth is a more interesting option since it opens the door for more power in a rather significant magnitude.

As for coils, see my post above for my position on the topic.

Which Endless pads do you have and how much pad is left on them? I'm leaning towards Carbotech XP16/12's but I'm willing to at least consider other options and I've heard good things about Endless.

Wait, you have an xi- same pad/rotor sizes?

Thanks
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      01-28-2013, 01:55 PM   #40
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Oh, already have the lines (ExactFits from ECS), and I will run ATE on the street and RBF600 on the track (the old Typ200-SuperBlue bleeding trick still works with this combo).
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      01-28-2013, 01:57 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
Can you talk a little more about why you are against a standalone aquamist, other than the obvious lack of integration (I am aware it has the capability)? Is yours an argument against the efficacy of the Aquamist controller, or simply that you don't recommend a standalone option? If I went standalone, I would plan on running stock boost and timing, etc. Thanks

I don't have plans to lower my car, though I may get my hands on some Koni FSDs or Bilstein adjustable shocks if I have the spare coin. Unless/until I become adequately proficient, I doubt I am skilled enough to benefit from corner weighting so I'm not in the market for coils just yet, and I'm happy with the stock ride height.

As for the M3 bushings, yeah I will probably end up doing that too, but I see that as a stage two or three mod for me. I like to mod in stages and as my skill/awareness of the car increases, so that I can really articulate my need for the mod, and feel the results- that's just me. But, that being said, if the handling is truly horrific because of the soft rubber, I may do it sooner.

My intent for my first outing is to make the car trackable from a thermal stability and safety standpoint. Then I will focus on performance adders as I identify the weaknesses according to my driving style (again, barring truly limiting issues like traction and the case for an LSD).
as for the meth, its basically auto tune that is great. its very plug and play and forget it for me.

also, if you pro-tune and set parameters, you then need to constantly mix your meth/distilled water combination (i did this on 3 audi's and ive promised myself never to do it again).

theres also the cost consideration, an FSB on a jb4 is $80 plus the meth kit (between 400-529 with the fsb). if you are running burger Motorsports or vishnu for that matter, the integration is fantastic, active management, economical, and fantastically useful.

ps ive run FSDs on my audi b7 a4, again ill pass, especially given the cost investment of the kits with springs, and the fact that ST coilovers are what, $1100?

also, the sway bar upgrade for track use should be looked into, imho its a week point in this platform
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      01-28-2013, 02:04 PM   #42
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Thanks, I'll have to do some research to understand the meth responses. Will post back here if I have questions.

As for the sways, I was considering Eibach's offering vs the factory M3 setup. Known differences? As the Eibach is not adjustable, I would like to know if it returns a more neutral handling balance or retains the stock understeer. I imagine the M3 setup is well-balanced already.

Good point on the coils. Will look into that option.

[edit] wait, I might not have been clear. I am considering stock springs on aftermarket shocks. Still might come out equal to or more than those ST coils though. But just to be totally accurate...
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      01-28-2013, 03:22 PM   #43
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Thanks, I'll have to do some research to understand the meth responses. Will post back here if I have questions.

As for the sways, I was considering Eibach's offering vs the factory M3 setup. Known differences? As the Eibach is not adjustable, I would like to know if it returns a more neutral handling balance or retains the stock understeer. I imagine the M3 setup is well-balanced already.

Good point on the coils. Will look into that option.

[edit] wait, I might not have been clear. I am considering stock springs on aftermarket shocks. Still might come out equal to or more than those ST coils though. But just to be totally accurate...
i dont think the fsd shocks are going to be track worthy or worth the effort or $ figure.

personally, again, if its track time you are concerned about, there is no replacement for coilovers.

i almost went with "theres no replacement for adjustment", but that seemed to easy.
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      01-28-2013, 03:46 PM   #44
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Thanks that helps.

To Chrisred- I take my prior comment back. The CP-e looks like a viable option! I didn't realize the oil cooler would essentially piggyback inline to the existing system. I thought it would replace the factory cooler.

I'm really considering this option instead of meth, providing it's adequate to keep the oil temps down. I'm confident the IATs will be fine. Plus, if I do this, I probably will run stock boost so that should help with temps too.
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