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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Advice on bring car to stealership on possible turbo seals



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      01-29-2013, 09:24 PM   #1
jspecvtec
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Advice on bring car to stealership on possible turbo seals

Need advice on bringing in car to dealership. This would be the 2nd time bringing it to the dealership. Almost got shafted $550 for diagnostic fee on headlights that weren't covered by CPO the first time. Recently put on catless downpipes and been getting smoke out the back. From reading threads i think that maybe that turbo seals are going out. I have e90 with 82k with CPO warranty until end of march 2013. I'm planning on making a video of the smoke to show them, tell them i'm losing oil/coolant and putting OEM dps back on. The only thing i'm afraid of is that when i put back the OEM dps (which does not produce smoke) and they say nothing is wrong with it i'm stuck with a diagnostic fee for nothing. Car is running strong and no other problems I can think of.

feedback appreciated! thanks
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      01-29-2013, 09:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jspecvtec View Post
Need advice on bringing in car to dealership. This would be the 2nd time bringing it to the dealership. Almost got shafted $550 for diagnostic fee on headlights that weren't covered by CPO the first time. Recently put on catless downpipes and been getting smoke out the back. From reading threads i think that maybe that turbo seals are going out. I have e90 with 82k with CPO warranty until end of march 2013. I'm planning on making a video of the smoke to show them, tell them i'm losing oil/coolant and putting OEM dps back on. The only thing i'm afraid of is that when i put back the OEM dps (which does not produce smoke) and they say nothing is wrong with it i'm stuck with a diagnostic fee for nothing. Car is running strong and no other problems I can think of.

feedback appreciated! thanks
You're stuck...regardless they will want to see the smoke with stock DP's in their shop. I would install the Stock DP's and take that risk.
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      01-29-2013, 09:37 PM   #3
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Install stock downpipes and document extensive coolant or oil loss. Their diagnostics should uncover leaky seals in the turbos. I would mention zilch about any smoke...
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      01-29-2013, 10:19 PM   #4
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Depending on the dealer they might be fine with a video for proof. Right before my car was out of warranty I kept getting a long crank issue. The problem was it happened at random times and maybe 1/10 starts. I brought it to the dealer and they tried to replicate it for a few days but couldn't get the car to long crank. When I got it back I just filmed every single start until I finally got the crank and emailed them the video. Without hesitation they replaced the HPFP after seeing the video proof
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      01-29-2013, 10:26 PM   #5
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thanks for feedback. any idea to what a diagnostic fee for this situation would cost?
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      01-29-2013, 10:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jspecvtec
thanks for feedback. any idea to what a diagnostic fee for this situation would cost?
My dealer chargers $128 I believe for all diagnostic work. I'm on CPO as well and been trying to get a second set of new turbos installed for awhile.

I never have been charged the fee. Even with nothing found wrong.
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      01-30-2013, 01:09 AM   #7
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i plan on leaving my intercooler, catback exhaust and intake on. Brought car that way first time and they did not say anything. anyone with input that this is okay (for turbo situation)?
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      01-30-2013, 10:41 PM   #8
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9 times out of 10 when a customer comes in telling me their turbo seals are bad I find zero oil in the turbo hotside and find a failed crankcase vent valve.

The seals in these turbos just don't go bad nearly as often as people assume they do. Just food for thought. In fact I've only replaced one turbo on a straight six for burning oil and it was on a N55. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but every time your car puffs blue smoke bmw will not allow me to throw 4 grand in turbos on the car. I have replaced DOZENS of sets of turbos in the past year for rattling, but not for burning oil.

If we were talking the N63 then it would be a different story, but these turbos just don't have a failure rate this forum leads on. I've seen a leaking fuel injector on this forum be diagnosed as a headgasket and turbo seals. Fuel leaks burn white/blue on this motor. It doesn't follow basic engine theory but its what happens. If I see one more thread where someone diagnosis their own car without measuring crankcase pressure or any proper diagnosis then blames the "idiots" at the dealer because 335guy07 from bumf'ingegypt diagnosed his car as turbo seals, I might lose it. /rant.
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      01-31-2013, 12:50 AM   #9
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To branch off what BMWN54tech mentioned, I literally just went through this over the past 4 days.

Brought my car in because I had an oil leak (not related), but also noticed some lower coolant levels, excessive white exhaust, slight turbo siren at low RPM's, and some mild wastegate rattle upon deceleration.

Told the tech about the abnormal turbo noises, and also mentioned the wastegate rattle. Tech noted that the turbos sounded normal, but heard the wastegate rattle and changed 1 of the turbos immediately, no questions asked. Also helped that I mentioned that 1 of the turbos had been replaced at 30k miles due to wastegate rattle.

Moral of the story, doesn't hurt to mention these other symptoms if you're already planning on bringing it in. (and it seems like the rattle is a more justified reason for them to replace turbos. Also helped that the shaft play was out of spec..)
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      01-31-2013, 12:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWN54tech View Post
9 times out of 10 when a customer comes in telling me their turbo seals are bad I find zero oil in the turbo hotside and find a failed crankcase vent valve.

The seals in these turbos just don't go bad nearly as often as people assume they do. Just food for thought. In fact I've only replaced one turbo on a straight six for burning oil and it was on a N55. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but every time your car puffs blue smoke bmw will not allow me to throw 4 grand in turbos on the car. I have replaced DOZENS of sets of turbos in the past year for rattling, but not for burning oil.

If we were talking the N63 then it would be a different story, but these turbos just don't have a failure rate this forum leads on. I've seen a leaking fuel injector on this forum be diagnosed as a headgasket and turbo seals. Fuel leaks burn white/blue on this motor. It doesn't follow basic engine theory but its what happens. If I see one more thread where someone diagnosis their own car without measuring crankcase pressure or any proper diagnosis then blames the "idiots" at the dealer because 335guy07 from bumf'ingegypt diagnosed his car as turbo seals, I might lose it. /rant.
got these pics during my downpipe install of the hotside of turbos. looks good to me? no oil, so does that mean its probably the CVV?



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      01-31-2013, 01:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWN54tech View Post
bmw will not allow me to throw 4 grand in turbos on the car.

.
And by 4 grand you mean the $1000 it costs between what your dealership pays for the turbos + the 4 hours of routine labor to install them
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      01-31-2013, 01:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWN54tech View Post
9 times out of 10 when a customer comes in telling me their turbo seals are bad I find zero oil in the turbo hotside and find a failed crankcase vent valve.

The seals in these turbos just don't go bad nearly as often as people assume they do. Just food for thought. In fact I've only replaced one turbo on a straight six for burning oil and it was on a N55. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but every time your car puffs blue smoke bmw will not allow me to throw 4 grand in turbos on the car. I have replaced DOZENS of sets of turbos in the past year for rattling, but not for burning oil.

If we were talking the N63 then it would be a different story, but these turbos just don't have a failure rate this forum leads on. I've seen a leaking fuel injector on this forum be diagnosed as a headgasket and turbo seals. Fuel leaks burn white/blue on this motor. It doesn't follow basic engine theory but its what happens. If I see one more thread where someone diagnosis their own car without measuring crankcase pressure or any proper diagnosis then blames the "idiots" at the dealer because 335guy07 from bumf'ingegypt diagnosed his car as turbo seals, I might lose it. /rant.
Very interesting

I've heard a bad OFH gasket can lead to smoke out of the exhaust, anything on this?

How could one check the CCV?
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      01-31-2013, 02:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOTMH8N View Post
Very interesting

I've heard a bad OFH gasket can lead to smoke out of the exhaust, anything on this?

How could one check the CCV?
Yeah is the CCV easy to check? I dont think it is my OFH gasket is bad since i would have smoked before my DP install right?
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      01-31-2013, 05:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tofu- View Post
And by 4 grand you mean the $1000 it costs between what your dealership pays for the turbos + the 4 hours of routine labor to install them
the bill we send to bmw is about $4000 parts and labor at their discounted labor rate. Its something like 13 hours labor after diagnosis.
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      01-31-2013, 06:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOTMH8N View Post
Very interesting

I've heard a bad OFH gasket can lead to smoke out of the exhaust, anything on this?

How could one check the CCV?
Oil filter housing will not cause smoke out the exhaust, just an oil leak under the oil filter housing, and on the upper hose as it enters the housing. If it is leaking onto the exhaust manifolds it can cause some under hood smoke, same with the valve cover. Any burning oil smoke out the tailpipe has to get into the exhaust first, either leaking out of the turbos (unlikely) or leaking into the motor via say the CCV (more likely).

The proper way to check the vent valve is to measure crankcase pressure. We use a device called a IMIB that electronically measures the pressure in relation to ambient air pressure. There is a spec for each car.

A little bit of oil being burned is not that unusual for a turbo car over time, as even the best turbos will allow some oil to enter the charge air pipes. How much oil/smoke are we talking?

An occasional puff of blue smoke when the motor is cold really isn't a problem to chase. This is also the case for cars pushing say, double the boost of what the car is designed to run factory (7psi). At that pressure the turbos will allow some oil past on the intake side, and this does not mean the seals are bad, its just characteristics of a turbocharger doing twice the work it was designed to. The BMW spec for oil burning on a turbo motor is a quart per thousand miles. Motors that do a lot of cold driving where the motor doesn't reach operating temp will allow oil to pass the rings more so than a warm motor, and could cause this.

Leaking fuel systems will also wash the cylinders down and cause some white blue smoke, and I'm sure as you know these motors have had a few issues with the fuel system. It all depends on how much we are talking. A video would be helpful.
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      01-31-2013, 06:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jspecvtec View Post
got these pics during my downpipe install of the hotside of turbos. looks good to me? no oil, so does that mean its probably the CVV?



These turbo's are fine, and these are how they usually look when we check the turbo seals.

For future reference side to side play in the shaft is also normal as long as it doesnt hit the housing, we have some people freak when they move a little. True shaft play is an in and out movement of the compressor wheel. This is a sign the thrust portion bearing is shot.
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      01-31-2013, 06:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWN54tech View Post
These turbo's are fine, and these are how they usually look when we check the turbo seals.

For future reference side to side play in the shaft is also normal as long as it doesnt hit the housing, we have some people freak when they move a little. True shaft play is an in and out movement of the compressor wheel. This is a sign the thrust portion bearing is shot.
Sometimes i wish i could just say "like a good neighbor, bmw tech is there" and poof! you would show up lol. I like reading threads like this just for the knowledge incase im ever in a similiar situation.

sorry for the derail op
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      01-31-2013, 07:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jspecvtec View Post
got these pics during my downpipe install of the hotside of turbos. looks good to me? no oil, so does that mean its probably the CVV?



most of the time its the intake side that leaks

remove charge pipes to see if there is some oil
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      01-31-2013, 07:26 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by type rrr View Post
most of the time its the intake side that leaks

remove charge pipes to see if there is some oil
I'll check this. I also ordered Rob Beck's upgraded N54 PCV (or CVV) valve. i'll install when i get it early next week and let u guys know if it works.

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...t=15382&page=1
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      01-31-2013, 08:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by type rrr
Quote:
Originally Posted by jspecvtec View Post
got these pics during my downpipe install of the hotside of turbos. looks good to me? no oil, so does that mean its probably the CVV?



most of the time its the intake side that leaks

remove charge pipes to see if there is some oil
To be perfectly clear, all turbos will have oil on the charge side. That is what turbos do, and why catch cans exist. The question is if it is excessive oil.
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      01-31-2013, 09:33 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWN54tech
9 times out of 10 when a customer comes in telling me their turbo seals are bad I find zero oil in the turbo hotside and find a failed crankcase vent valve.

The seals in these turbos just don't go bad nearly as often as people assume they do. Just food for thought. In fact I've only replaced one turbo on a straight six for burning oil and it was on a N55. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but every time your car puffs blue smoke bmw will not allow me to throw 4 grand in turbos on the car. I have replaced DOZENS of sets of turbos in the past year for rattling, but not for burning oil.

If we were talking the N63 then it would be a different story, but these turbos just don't have a failure rate this forum leads on. I've seen a leaking fuel injector on this forum be diagnosed as a headgasket and turbo seals. Fuel leaks burn white/blue on this motor. It doesn't follow basic engine theory but its what happens. If I see one more thread where someone diagnosis their own car without measuring crankcase pressure or any proper diagnosis then blames the "idiots" at the dealer because 335guy07 from bumf'ingegypt diagnosed his car as turbo seals, I might lose it. /rant.
+1
Vacuum leaks cause excess oil consumption as well.
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      01-31-2013, 09:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWN54tech View Post
To be perfectly clear, all turbos will have oil on the charge side. That is what turbos do, and why catch cans exist. The question is if it is excessive oil.
The oil comes from the fact that the PCV is recirculated to the intake tube of the rear turbo pre-compressor. The oil in the charge piping dousn't come from the turbo itself, as the water jacket is on the compressor side, the oil is on the turbine side in the bearing housing. The oil is blow-by from the crankcase that will build up inside your FMIC, then reach the charge tubing and diverter valves eventually into your motor and onto the intake valves.

And catch cans don't exist to catch oil from turbos, they exist to catch and condense PCV oil-enriched vapors to prevent the blow by oil from entering the intake tract. Excessive PCV oil can be caused my a number of different things as well, ranging from a leaky check valve to issues with your piston rings being worn.
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