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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Wavetrac vs Quaife



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      07-27-2012, 11:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driverman View Post
Thanks for your input on the Wavetrac.

I love my 328i with 6MT but more power would be nice. I think changing the rear axle ratio is the best way to get more torque to the drive wheels, especially for those of us that live in the US that must comply (mostly) with low speed limits. Why not sacrifice some top end for more torque to the drive wheels throughout the range?

Upsides:
- better acceleration throughout the range
- keep entire car stock except the diff, which shouldn't affect any other components
- limited slip

Downsides:
- worse gas mileage
- more RPM while cruising on the freeway
- cost of upgrade
I agree! Its one of those things where we love what WE bought. You need to buy what YOU want and it seems thats what you are going to do! BTW I bought mine from Harold at HP Autoworks and it was a great experience. I highly recommend HPA. Good luck!
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      08-13-2012, 01:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
This is very important. I don't know if Wavetrac has added this feature to their latest units. Without proper lubrication to the stub axles, they can potentially sieze to the LSD and will be nearly impossible to take the unit apart for servicing or warranty.
I was curious enough to clarify directly with Wavetrac. Their customer service is great; here is the answer I got:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autotech Driveline
The BMW factory differentials on current (and recent) models use a smooth axle bore with no oil grooves. The Wavetrac was designed using a factory, ungrooved diff as a sample and therefore also does not use the grooves. Oil grooves are used less and less in OEM applications because they often create more issues than they solve and they add cost to manufacture. The edges of the groove are of particular concern since they must be absolutely clear of any sharp edges. Sharp edges on these grooves will cut the oil film that must be maintained for proper lubrication. Most OEMs have found that accurate sizing of smooth surfaces creates a better oil film that is less susceptible to failure due to oil film fractures.

Wavetrac does use the grooves on some other (non BMW) applications, but only on those that the OEM unit is still using them.

We have chosen not to use the grooves on BMW because they are not currently used that we know of.

The important thing to know is that a groove does not guarantee better oiling. Proper size of the bore around the axle is all that is needed to ensure good lubrication. We hold our bore sizes to a very tight tolerance and make sure adequate gap is there to create and maintain the ideal oil film
So it appears BMW themselves have gone away from this feature. I agree with everything they said, particularly that seizing can be prevented by strictly controlling the bore tolerance. And if anyone ever had this issue, they would be on the hook to rectify it, considering their lifetime warranty. Mine is getting installed in a week.
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      09-26-2012, 11:44 PM   #25
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How's the LSD going nitehawk?
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      09-27-2012, 08:48 AM   #26
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I went with a Quaife from VAC on my 335d. I am ecstatic with the improvement in performance and handling. VAC is top-notch!

One silly argument I have heard between Quaife and Wavetrac is that with a Quiafe, if one of your wheels comes off the ground, you lose traction to both. Wavetrac will apparently maintain traction to the wheel still on the pavement. Since I don't have my pilot's license and like to keep my 335d grounded, I stuck with the proven durability of Quaife. Seriously, if you have a rear wheel off the ground, there is nothing an LSD is going to do for you, anyway.

Last edited by minus13; 09-27-2012 at 08:54 AM.
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      09-27-2012, 11:33 AM   #27
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Both nitehawk and myself have 1st gear thumps. Some users have reported the same with the Quaife unit. If the chances were far slimmer with the Quaife of getting the thumps, I would have got one without hesitation.
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      09-27-2012, 03:06 PM   #28
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I know a few guys who run a Quaife and none of them have that thump you're talking about.

How about the guys here who run a Quaife?
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      09-27-2012, 03:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekboyD View Post
I know a few guys who run a Quaife and none of them have that thump you're talking about.

How about the guys here who run a Quaife?
~16 hours of track time on my Quaife. No thump whatsoever even after I've boiled the diff fluid at the track. Changed fluid, got a cooler, still no issues with Quaife.
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      09-27-2012, 03:19 PM   #30
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No thump for my Quaife, either.
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      09-27-2012, 04:20 PM   #31
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No noises from my quaife and I am putting a ton of power through it.
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      09-27-2012, 04:51 PM   #32
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I spent a good track day last Saturday with my Wavetrac with the local chapter BMWCCA in A group...not a single clunk coming from mine. Love it.
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      09-27-2012, 06:56 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekboyD View Post
How's the LSD going nitehawk?
Yeah, seems to be a hit or miss with these clunk noises. Driveabilty wise though, I haven't encountered any issues with 1500kms on it. Powering around a turn in 2nd gear is a total blast.


Wheelhop is more pronounced after getting the LSD. Where before it would dance around, you feel it now fighting for grip. I think the LSD highlights other weak points in my suspension (diff bushings, oe rear links)
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      09-27-2012, 07:44 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitehawk
Yeah, seems to be a hit or miss with these clunk noises. Driveabilty wise though, I haven't encountered any issues with 1500kms on it. Powering around a turn in 2nd gear is a total blast.


Wheelhop is more pronounced after getting the LSD. Where before it would dance around, you feel it now fighting for grip. I think the LSD highlights other weak points in my suspension (diff bushings, oe rear links)
That's for sure. You looking to upgrade them?
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      09-27-2012, 08:02 PM   #35
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That's for sure. You looking to upgrade them?
Yes, not until next year though along with coilovers.
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      09-27-2012, 08:28 PM   #36
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I'm doing likewise when the spring hits. My plan is to pick up every piece I need over the fall/winter.
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      02-08-2013, 09:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minus13 View Post
I went with a Quaife from VAC on my 335d. I am ecstatic with the improvement in performance and handling. VAC is top-notch!

One silly argument I have heard between Quaife and Wavetrac is that with a Quiafe, if one of your wheels comes off the ground, you lose traction to both. Wavetrac will apparently maintain traction to the wheel still on the pavement. Since I don't have my pilot's license and like to keep my 335d grounded, I stuck with the proven durability of Quaife. Seriously, if you have a rear wheel off the ground, there is nothing an LSD is going to do for you, anyway.
How's its helped up man? I too am looking to add one on my 335d this spring.
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      02-08-2013, 11:05 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekboyD View Post
How's its helped up man? I too am looking to add one on my 335d this spring.
I have Wavetrac, which had a groove mentioned earlier, and it's held up perfectly.

Expect the same performance from Quaife. Greatly reduced wheel hop post-LSD, and handling problems disappeared almost completely with Yellows + M parts. Still not a 911, but its handling is remarkable. Would love t'do that on a diesel.

Wavetrac's biggest draw: lower price for same performance. The advantages they advertise I've never noticed. Superb performer.

Quaife's made in England; Wavetrac in California.

'Course, maybe you know that!
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      02-09-2013, 01:57 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
I have Wavetrac, which had a groove mentioned earlier, and it's held up perfectly.

Expect the same performance from Quaife. Greatly reduced wheel hop post-LSD, and handling problems disappeared almost completely with Yellows + M parts. Still not a 911, but its handling is remarkable. Would love t'do that on a diesel.

Wavetrac's biggest draw: lower price for same performance. The advantages they advertise I've never noticed. Superb performer.

Quaife's made in England; Wavetrac in California.

'Course, maybe you know that!
Hey man. Thanks for answering all my PMs on suspension as I've finally amassed all of the M3 bits for my car.

Since my differential is welded on, cost for either one is virtually identical. Take a look:

Link
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      02-10-2013, 02:50 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minus13 View Post
One silly argument I have heard between Quaife and Wavetrac is that with a Quiafe, if one of your wheels comes off the ground, you lose traction to both. Wavetrac will apparently maintain traction to the wheel still on the pavement. Since I don't have my pilot's license and like to keep my 335d grounded, I stuck with the proven durability of Quaife. Seriously, if you have a rear wheel off the ground, there is nothing an LSD is going to do for you, anyway.
Utter rubbish!

There is nothing 'silly' about the fact that a Quaife diff doesn't work if one wheel leaves the ground, anything but actually.

A Quaife is basically a Torsen (TORque SENsing) helical differential and it does not work if one wheel has zero grip, or is off the ground. On a road car with standard suspension that has plenty of droop and soft anti-roll bars, it's not a problem. With a stiffer setup i.e. uprated springs , shocks and anti-roll bars, droop will be much reduced and can easily cause a wheel to lose contact with the ground on bumps or riding kerbs on track. In this situation a Quaife will not work and traction will be lost.

I've used Quaife, Wavetrak and full Motorsport plated diffs on various cars, road and track, over the years. I've had problems with loss of traction after changes in suspension setup, where before the mods, the Quaife worked perfectly, and once changed to a stiffer setup, it was just hopeless, loosing traction very easily.

The ultimate mechanical LSD is a plated one. These can give a very high percentage lock-up depending on the number of plates, ramp angle and plate area. Pre-load adjustments can also be made to tweak the diff depending on application, tarmac, gravel etc. The downside is they are noisy, difficult to setup correctly and require maintenance due to wear. The positives are they give great traction thus the choice for hardcore road and track cars.

This is the whole reason the Wavetrak was developed. It combines the maintenance free and quiet operation of the Quaife, but still gives great traction if one wheel looses complete grip. It does this because when one wheel looses traction, the plated part of the diff activates, whereas normally the helical torsen part gives lock-up as per the Quaife. The reason the plates don't wear out is because they are only 'used' for a small percentage of the time.

So, a Quaife is a great diff if used on a road going car or a track car with decent suspension droop and not too stiff anti-roll bars. On a hardcore setup where one wheel can have a complete loss of grip they do not work.

Lastly, a word about Quaife installs that 'clunk'. I personally don't think this is caused by the Quaife unit itself, but down to the install. If backlash isn't measured and adjusted correctly during install, the diff will clunk. Backlash is adjusted by changing the diff bearing shims to obtain the correct bearing pre-load as well as the correct meshing of the crown wheel and pinion. As a lot of these installs require the crown wheel to be machined off the diff due to being welded on as standard, this also requires the back of the crown wheel to be skimmed before drilling, tapping and install to the new diff. This means they cannot be just removed and refitted with the same bearing shims, they must be measured and setup correctly. If not they will clunk.
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      02-25-2014, 11:05 PM   #41
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are wavetrac LSD owners reporting less noise or issues nowadays?
have they improved?
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      02-26-2014, 12:22 AM   #42
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Well after 2 years the Quaife has been absolutely trouble free! Wish I could say the same for the rest of the car, as I had to replace the clutch at 48,000 miles, and had to have a HPFP done at 51,000. Still, I love the car, even though she can be an uppity bitch on occasion. Kinda like dating a supermodel, looks so damn good, but can be high maintenance at times.

Haven't pulled the trigger yet, but plan on M3 suspension bits, a bigger FMIC, and catless DP's for future mods.
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      02-26-2014, 05:43 AM   #43
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A few guys are also running the OS Giken SL or TCD. That's another one to consider, depending on the goals of the vehicle.
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      02-26-2014, 11:32 AM   #44
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Quote:
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are wavetrac LSD owners reporting less noise or issues nowadays?
have they improved?
If you do some research, you'll find both wavetrac and quaife having their own share of complaints. There's a bit of partisanship about it, but if you do your research you'll see them both come up with issues. Some dealers do say wavetrac had issues in the past and now are ok, but if you dig below the surface they have no idea of root cause so for me that is not really a reliable source.

Mine has had some issues related to the install, which I think/hope now are fixed.

And while I don't mean to scare anyone (i do love the mod), the fact is that BMW machines the snap rings depending of the overall play of tolerances in the diff, and a new diff core will not match the exact dimensions of the old diff, same as another car's core diff dimensions will not match yours (and thus have different snap rings). Depending on the deviations, your shifting will be different. Mine was too, but somehow in time it settled (this last part I can't really explain).
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