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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > 1st Track Day = N54 Engine Failure :(



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      02-23-2013, 07:18 PM   #23
Nigelo
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Im guessing stuck open injector too - at high rpms the much of the fuel was being used but as the load was taken off the engine the extra fuel in that particular cylinder caused the damage.
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      02-23-2013, 07:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
Welcome to the club... Are you Lifting the head to check exactly what caused the issue?
Yeah, once the engine's out of the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablo335 View Post
If it locked the cyl 4 has a broken rod, pin or piston. Or combo thereof...

Water does use up space. A nozzle spraying too much could easily overcompress the chambers.
You sound like me - talking through what-if scenarios and trying to reverse engineer the situation to identify the problem. I've been doing that for the last week.

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Originally Posted by Timore View Post
Another meth horror story... I'm sorry man hope everything works out. Another reason for me to stay away and just use e85.
That's what I'm leaning towards right now, except e85 is basically non-existant in SoCal. There's a 76 station not too far away that sells 100 octane at the pump.

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Originally Posted by mave198 View Post
That sucks and I wish your vehicle a speedy recovery.

But are u still gonna use Meth after this??

I've always been against using meth because the few times something goes wrong, it goes wrong big time.
Probably not, but like Shiv said above, meth has major benefits at the track. I'm most attracted to the cooling aspects. If I do keep using it I'll make some or all of the following changes:
- locate meth tank in trunk (isolate line and pump from the engine heat)
- more restrictive nozzle
- lower max boost
- different tune???

Quote:
Originally Posted by onebadmofo View Post
Could be as little as popped off coolant hose.
Can you explain a little more, Mofo? I don't understand how that would cause engine failure unless you mean all the coolant leaked out and the engine overheated. I'm confident this wasn't the case since there was no fluid leaking of any kind.

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Originally Posted by The Ghost View Post
Do you have logs of the failure?
I wish, but I wouldn't have wanted to have my laptop out on the track with me anyway since it was a road course.

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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Meth on track days is invaluable. It's just important to make sure that it is controlled and configured properly. It should also be integrated with the tune with more than a basic failsafe.

Sorry for your bad experience. Sometimes running street cars on tracks can be a learning process.

Shiv
I don't want to start a war, but since I genuinely don't know, what kind of additional failsafes are available besides a FSB with an integrated tune like the JB4? I thought the PROcede operated on the same basic principle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
PS. Hydrolock is pretty unlikely. More likely a cracked piston or a spun bearing. But you won't know for sure until the head is lifted.
Is there anyway to identify the root cause, even after the head is lifted? By that I mean, if it is a cracked piston, what caused it to crack, etc?

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Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
Dude this is awful. But I don't see how surging meth would hydro-lock only one cylinder, or affect clutch operation for that matter. Keep us posted.
Me either - this last week has been agonizing waiting for answers. I'm not even sure my clutch is toast as it could just be the master cylinder. I just figured that given the situation, I might as well start with a new clutch to match the new engine. I'm just glad I really liked this car to begin with.

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Originally Posted by CT335xi View Post
That sucks man! Sorry for your misfortune . I would think that even with a mishap with the meth that it wouldn't hydro lock your engine. How much water could of possibly pooled up in there ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
How did the plug look? Sounds more likely to be a locked fuel injector than a meth issue in my opinion. I have heard of it happening before with similar results. The tear down should provide clues.

Mike
Dunno yet, but I plan on taking lots of pictures to try and help others learn from my misfortune.
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      02-23-2013, 07:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ihsanshaik View Post
10k for a track day..I hope everything works out for you!
What's the saying? "You gotta pay to play"
We all know engine failure is the worst case scenario the day we put an aftermarket tune in our cars as there's a reason it voids warranties - it's just that none of us think it's ever going to happen to our car. I know I didn't. I rationalized that if I kept my max boost lower than what everyone else runs on the forums and took care of my engine with proper maintenance and the best fluids money can buy, everything would be good. Life just gives you lemons sometimes.

I appreciate all the kind words and condolences from everyone though, as this is pretty depressing - especially since I really love this car.
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      02-23-2013, 07:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakyDeeky View Post
What's the saying? "You gotta pay to play"
We all know engine failure is the worst case scenario the day we put an aftermarket tune in our cars as there's a reason it voids warranties - it's just that none of us think it's ever going to happen to our car. I know I didn't. I rationalized that if I kept my max boost lower than what everyone else runs on the forums and took care of my engine with proper maintenance and the best fluids money can buy, everything would be good. Life just gives you lemons sometimes.

I appreciate all the kind words and condolences from everyone though, as this is pretty depressing - especially since I really love this car.
No actually the worst thing that can happen is much worse than this. I watched a guy die at a drivers school who had a major system failure in his modified street car. His kid was there waiting in the pits. So yeah it is only money thank your lucky stars for that at least.
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      02-23-2013, 07:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
I agree with Mike. I find it hard to believe that you can dump that much meth at high rpm to cause this. Good luck with the tear down.
I've heard of the locked injector twice before and both under similar circumstances. One car was tuned the other was not. But both basically were half way through a session and suddenly a big puff of smoke and locked motor.

Under heavy throttle meth would normally be flowing so it can't be that the meth was "stuck on". It could get "stuck off" but he says he was using map 3 with a 0 additive, which is 13psi peak tapering to 9psi at redline. At those low boost levels the meth isn't doing much more than offsetting air intake temperatures especially on a 50% water mix. A 0 additive is the same as the failsafe mode for no meth flow.

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      02-23-2013, 07:55 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakyDeeky View Post
I don't want to start a war, but since I genuinely don't know, what kind of additional failsafes are available besides a FSB with an integrated tune like the JB4? I thought the PROcede operated on the same basic principle.
Hopefully we can avoid a war. The two approaches are fundamentally different in terms of tuning approach, methanol control and injection hardware. IMHO, the better approach is to use motorsports grade hardware to measure actual methanol flow through a turbine wheel equipped flow tube and not rely on a simple (and understandably inexpensive) device that assumes flow based upon the electrical load on the pump. The latter will not provide accurate and reliable flow information. Also, spray should be metered by a injection valve (and static fuel pressure) as you would a fuel through an injector in a basic EFI application. Not through a jet with a fixed open orifice by varying pump voltage/injection pressure. The latter approach limits dynamic range and provides too much spray (and poor atomization) at low loads. If you are going to rely on methanol injection in racing applications, I believe in using hardware that was built (and proven) in motorsport. This is why Aquamist exists and why we don't use any hardware that isn't designed and manufactured by them.

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Is there anyway to identify the root cause, even after the head is lifted? By that I mean, if it is a cracked piston, what caused it to crack, etc?
Knowing the cause of failure requires a keen and experienced eye. No one will be able to give you an explanation with 100% certainty but they can come close once they tear things down. By the sounds of it, the damage was done when you felt the hiccup coming out of turn 9. But at WOT, the high engine torque kept the engine turning over. Once you lifted off the throttle, the engine internals saw opposing load and finally let go. That's one possibility. But this is all speculation until the engine is opened up and inspected.

It will also be useful to read the fault codes from the DME. Unless there is a fuel injector related code, you can rule out a fuel injection failure as being a the cause of the problem. That's pretty unlikely IMHO.
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      02-23-2013, 08:13 PM   #29
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doubt is meth kit related.
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      02-23-2013, 08:16 PM   #30
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Damn that really sucks.

Is it possible that the engine got starved from oil on all those turns?

Would a damaged valve cover gasket cause this as well?
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      02-23-2013, 08:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Man you should have shopped around a little more for the motor. I found a good Longblock for 1400 bucks shipped. You can get entire salvaged cars right now with non frontal accident damage for under 5 grand all day. Either way you already have the motor, Dzenno had sent me your email to ask me what I thought. I told him if the motor did go, I really had no idea why but I was thinking it was something else. Obviously I was wrong. Good luck with the rebuild, sorry to hear about it...
Where are you finding them this inexpensive? I would love to find a reasonable price for a long block or a head.
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      02-23-2013, 08:24 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisstik View Post
Damn that really sucks.

Is it possible that the engine got starved from oil on all those turns?

Would a damaged valve cover gasket cause this as well?
Engine oil starvation is a possibility. Although that would be far less likely on street tires.
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      02-23-2013, 08:25 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drm916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Man you should have shopped around a little more for the motor. I found a good Longblock for 1400 bucks shipped. You can get entire salvaged cars right now with non frontal accident damage for under 5 grand all day. Either way you already have the motor, Dzenno had sent me your email to ask me what I thought. I told him if the motor did go, I really had no idea why but I was thinking it was something else. Obviously I was wrong. Good luck with the rebuild, sorry to hear about it...
Where are you finding them this inexpensive? I would love to find a reasonable price for a long block or a head.
Copart.com there were a bunch of flooded cars from the north east when they had the massive storms few months back
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      02-23-2013, 08:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by SneakyDeeky View Post
(a) the meth line boiled and got air in the lines causing the surging sensation while under WOT and engine failed due to lack of octane. Issue there, is that it was only lap #1 and my oil temps were still down around 210. It could have been (b) an electrical grounding issue, (c) clutch failed and engine somehow over-revved (although I didn't hear anything to support this), (d) tune malfunction, or (e) who knows what else. Even once I tear the engine apart, I probably still won't know.
Sorry to hear about your miss fortune. My comments to you in the limp mode thread seems to tie directly into one of your theories. I didn't answer you back on purpose, because I avoid discussing tunes on this forum. I also don't post in this section of the forums very much, so you might want to post this in the track section, as well, for more input.

Good Luck
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      02-23-2013, 10:19 PM   #35
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I welcome you to this dreaded club, take it from someone who's been there make sure your shop knows what they're doing. Good luck my friend it's never painless when this sort of thing happens.
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      02-23-2013, 10:45 PM   #36
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Sorry to hear man! Car looks good in those pics, hope you get it all sorted and back up again soon.
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      02-24-2013, 02:57 AM   #37
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Aw man sorry to hear about your bad luck! Especially with all the effort you put in the car to get it prepared and set up for the track.

I hope the shop can figure out what went wrong. I'm not a fan of running meth at the track. As a beginner (no offense!) the car with just a tune has plenty of power. More can actually hinder the learning process rather than help it. And meth just adds more variables and possible points of failure especially during prolonged track sessions. I would steer away from it and rather opt for upgraded turbos if you're looking for more and reliable power.

Good luck with the fix!
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      02-24-2013, 03:10 AM   #38
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Couldn't you run E85 instead of Meth? Should get you similar horsepower gains.
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      02-24-2013, 04:18 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pankakez & BMWs View Post
I don't get why/how this happened when he lifted the throttle, as opposed to while he was under WOT.
I can see such a thing happening when the throttle is lifted at high RPM. In many cases, at high engine RPM, the largest force on the connecting rod (and, effectively, torque for the car) is the changing of momentum of the piston itself. The loads on a connecting rod can actually be less when throttle is applied.

More information here:

http://www.d-series.org/forums/engin...do-i-care.html
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      02-24-2013, 10:51 AM   #40
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Hopefully we can avoid a war. The two approaches are fundamentally different in terms of tuning approach, methanol control and injection hardware.
To both Shiv, and Mike, if I may get your input on the relationship between both ethanol/methanol use, and injection hardware damage. Also on the possible long term corrosive effects of alcohols (both methanol and ethanol), on the internal metal components of non flex fuel engines.

Both of these issues could be a key factor here, as we seem to be getting some premature engine failures in the community of late. I know that people who advise against ethanol use for instance, do so because they think it washes away the lubrication of oil, as well as corrodes the metals such as pistons, cylinder walls, valve seats, etc, in non flex fuel vehicles. Flex fuel vehicles use corrosion resistant metals, to help cope with long term alcohol exposure.
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      02-24-2013, 10:54 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I've heard of the locked injector twice before and both under similar circumstances. One car was tuned the other was not. But both basically were half way through a session and suddenly a big puff of smoke and locked motor.
Mike
Mike, same question to you from post #40
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      02-24-2013, 11:05 AM   #42
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      02-24-2013, 11:27 AM   #43
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That is very unfortunate and very sorry to hear. It might be any of these causes others are mentioning. It most likely isn't the boost you are running as it is very low but on that 91 there maybe 14.5psi is too much boost for stock timing if meth was not flowing. Like Shiv said it is extremely important to have the best methanol system in place to safeguard yourself and your car as much as possible from issues like this. I went with the Aquamist HFS-4 and their state of the art injection and failsafe setup for those reasons. Hopefully you will be able to track down the root cause eventually and be able to avoid the same issue again.
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      02-24-2013, 02:48 PM   #44
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how do you prevent injectors from "locking up"
How often should should they be replaced so this doesn't happen?

No way it can be meth, but keep lines in trunk in general. WW kits are prone to cause fire
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