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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > 1st Track Day = N54 Engine Failure :(



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      02-24-2013, 04:40 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Engine oil starvation is a possibility. Although that would be far less likely on street tires.
Thanks for clarifying the methanol FSB question; I had forgotten about the differences between how the JB4 and PROcede control the progressive spray until reading your post, but since you refreshed my memory I was aware of this back when I made the decision to purchase my meth kit. I'd already owned the JB4 for a while and was very pleased with it, which helped influence my decision.

As for the oil starvation question, a week prior to the track I'd just installed the ER dual oil coolers. Installation was performed by ER and they added almost 2 extra quarts of Royal Purple 5W30 as part of the install. Regarding tires, I was using Michelin Pilot Super Sports at the time, but failure occurred at the end of a straight-a-way so I doubt that was the issue either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn335i View Post
Aw man sorry to hear about your bad luck! Especially with all the effort you put in the car to get it prepared and set up for the track.

I hope the shop can figure out what went wrong. I'm not a fan of running meth at the track. As a beginner (no offense!) the car with just a tune has plenty of power. More can actually hinder the learning process rather than help it. And meth just adds more variables and possible points of failure especially during prolonged track sessions. I would steer away from it and rather opt for upgraded turbos if you're looking for more and reliable power.

Good luck with the fix!
No offense taken - I am definitely a beginner at the track. The only reason I was running map 3 at all was for the cooling benefits that meth provides. After reading all of the posts thus far, it's starting to sound like meth may be a less likely culprit, but who know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
Couldn't you run E85 instead of Meth? Should get you similar horsepower gains.
Sure, but like race gas (MS109), octane boosters, or 100 octane pump fuel, E85 only provides extra octane, which equates to increased engine temps - something the N54 struggles with in general, and especially at the track. Meth on the other hand provides octane and cooling benefits. I thought I was being conservative by running (a) no octane booster, (b) a low max boost, 14.5 psi, (c) JB4 setting of boost additive = 0, and (d) map 3 for minimal meth flow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferruccio View Post
I can see such a thing happening when the throttle is lifted at high RPM. In many cases, at high engine RPM, the largest force on the connecting rod (and, effectively, torque for the car) is the changing of momentum of the piston itself. The loads on a connecting rod can actually be less when throttle is applied.

More information here:

http://www.d-series.org/forums/engin...do-i-care.html
Makes sense and thanks for the link.
While I agree that this could have played a part in pushing the engine over the edge, there are a couple of reasons why I don't think it was the sole source of the failure:
a) I wasn't too close to redline - probably 4500-5500 rpm.
b) It doesn't explain the surging sensation under WOT.
c) BMW's calculation for the redline limit should already account for this scenario. Can you imagine if engine failure occurred every time somebody accelerated to redline and then lifted?

Again, I think your point is valid and if anything, this is a good reminder of why adhering the redline limit is so important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazze90 View Post
... Like Shiv said it is extremely important to have the best methanol system in place to safeguard yourself and your car as much as possible from issues like this. I went with the Aquamist HFS-4 and their state of the art injection and failsafe setup for those reasons. Hopefully you will be able to track down the root cause eventually and be able to avoid the same issue again.
Thanks, I plan on learning more about the Aquamist setup. Thankfully, my mechanic is very experienced with BMWs and equally interested in figuring out what went wrong. I plan on pictures and keeping everyone informed of what we learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e92tt1986 View Post
how do you prevent injectors from "locking up"
How often should should they be replaced so this doesn't happen?
+1 as this sounds like a plausible explanation.
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Last edited by SneakyDeeky; 02-24-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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      02-24-2013, 05:39 PM   #46
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Injector locking up is very unlikely.
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      02-24-2013, 05:48 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
Injector locking up is very unlikely.
+1
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      02-24-2013, 06:09 PM   #48
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Wow, how unfortunate. If something like that happened to me, I'd probably be too depressed to ever go back to the track, lol.

Hopefully your car will be up and running soon!
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      02-24-2013, 06:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher View Post
Wow, how unfortunate. If something like that happened to me, I'd probably be too depressed to ever go back to the track, lol.

Hopefully your car will be up and running soon!
not to go off topic but you are officially the nerdiest user in the history of bimmerpost. That is a compliment.
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      02-24-2013, 06:39 PM   #50
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not to go off topic but you are officially the nerdiest user in the history of bimmerpost. That is a compliment.
Thanks!
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      02-24-2013, 08:35 PM   #51
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I feel your pain. Although as many have opined that the incident may not have been related to meth, I'd still vote for no meth for tracking, despite its obvious cooling benefits.

I track my car regularly and prefer to keep it simple. With twin turbos, our car is already too complicated for track and I am thinking of oil lines bursting and catching fire when I say this. Perhaps I am exaggerating a little, but cars catching fire for oil lines bursting is quite real.

Good luck with the rebuild!
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      02-24-2013, 09:54 PM   #52
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I was told that the E85 also lowered temps during combustion which allows for more aggressive timing setting, not just increased octane, but I could be totally be wrong, I will let the pros chime in on this one.
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      02-24-2013, 10:11 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
I was told that the E85 also lowered temps during combustion which allows for more aggressive timing setting, not just increased octane, but I could be totally be wrong, I will let the pros chime in on this one.
This is true. But E85 running cooler basically simulates higher octane (Higher knock threshold)
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      02-24-2013, 10:13 PM   #54
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Wow, sorry to hear about this OP!

It is reason like these I will not track my car. Chances are slim that this will happen but for me I'd rather not take that chance.

On the bright side you'll get a newer motor.

Keep us posted on the outcome and new motor.
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      02-24-2013, 11:36 PM   #55
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Did you check the oil level prior to tracking and make sure it was overfilled by a 1/2 quart to full quart?
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      02-25-2013, 12:16 AM   #56
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That SUCKS man !!. But its good it didn't harm you in any physical. Life does throw you lemons ALOT
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      02-25-2013, 12:17 AM   #57
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Oh and one more thing, I would stay away 1000% from windshield washer fluid meth setups truthfully speaking.
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      02-25-2013, 12:17 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher View Post
Wow, how unfortunate. If something like that happened to me, I'd probably be too depressed to ever go back to the track, lol.

Hopefully your car will be up and running soon!
Me too, I probably wouldn't go back lol.
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      02-25-2013, 08:39 PM   #59
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Giving up on track days would be a pity because driving on the roadcourse, with good instruction, really puts the whole car enthusiast thing in perspective. And being able to clearly quantify the effects of every mode you install, in a safe and forgiving environment, is a lot of fun. Conversely, hamming it up on a road while dodging bikers, evading police and swerving around animals is a lot more stressful IMHO.
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      02-25-2013, 11:24 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Giving up on track days would be a pity because driving on the roadcourse, with good instruction, really puts the whole car enthusiast thing in perspective. And being able to clearly quantify the effects of every mode you install, in a safe and forgiving environment, is a lot of fun. Conversely, hamming it up on a road while dodging bikers, evading police and swerving around animals is a lot more stressful IMHO.
+1
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      02-26-2013, 12:21 AM   #61
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I tend to agree that this maybe an injector and the only reason i say this is because this past Thursday ( I run completely stock) I was running my car not to hard but when I got home I parked up and in the morning went to my car started it up and instantly knew something was wrong it took 4-5 cranks then i stopped the car did it again and what followed made me have kittens. Massive white smoke cam out of my exhaust followed by really terrible idle. I turned it off went round the back saw petrol dripping from my tail pipe. I swear it was petrol not water because it was just oily petrol smell and staining the floor. I got back in called BMW assist and had them tow it. The dealer thought i was talking crap when I said petrols pouring from the tail pipe and its running really bad. They pulled misfire from 2 cylinders and replaced the injector and found it was stuck wide open. The fact you was cool when this happened says fuel all over it because if it was hot it would ignite under compression. A hydro lock from meth would have effected 2 or more.
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      02-26-2013, 12:47 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leekay07 View Post
I tend to agree that this maybe an injector and the only reason i say this is because this past Thursday ( I run completely stock) I was running my car not to hard but when I got home I parked up and in the morning went to my car started it up and instantly knew something was wrong it took 4-5 cranks then i stopped the car did it again and what followed made me have kittens. Massive white smoke cam out of my exhaust followed by really terrible idle. I turned it off went round the back saw petrol dripping from my tail pipe. I swear it was petrol not water because it was just oily petrol smell and staining the floor. I got back in called BMW assist and had them tow it. The dealer thought i was talking crap when I said petrols pouring from the tail pipe and its running really bad. They pulled misfire from 2 cylinders and replaced the injector and found it was stuck wide open. The fact you was cool when this happened says fuel all over it because if it was hot it would ignite under compression. A hydro lock from meth would have effected 2 or more.
I have a hard time believing this as the gas would leak through the compression ring before exiting out your exhaust valve, down your exhaust manifold, through your turbo, down your cats threw the exhaust and out onto the floor.

I think you got taken for a ride.

At OP once you have the tear down complete it will identify point of failure pretty quickly. Let us know.
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      02-26-2013, 03:31 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cripple View Post
I have a hard time believing this as the gas would leak through the compression ring before exiting out your exhaust valve, down your exhaust manifold, through your turbo, down your cats threw the exhaust and out onto the floor.

I think you got taken for a ride.

At OP once you have the tear down complete it will identify point of failure pretty quickly. Let us know.
Well me and you can agree to disagree on that one.

here is someone else with fuel coming out on the cars.

http://www.justanswer.com/bmw/70oq9-...nsidering.html
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=756503

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      02-26-2013, 05:16 AM   #64
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sorry for your loss, subscribed for updates
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      02-26-2013, 10:44 AM   #65
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Sorry for your loss.

I think whatever broke it started with the OEM clutch or DMFW letting go. I known I've seen at least one other track-day clutch failure (ultimateracing 335. Another forum, tore the center right out of the disc) and two or more DMFW failures so far among the forums I visit.

Reasoning:
1) It happened when you let off the gas. Sudden decel twists the hell out of the clutch and engine with no damping.
2) The clutch pedal went limp. There's no way I can think of a cyl dying would cause this. Only a clutch/slave problem.
3) If a cylinder went you would most likely not hear a sickening explosion. The vast majority of the time it's completely transparent except for a rough running.
4) If you really flooded the engine and smashed a piston at 5k rpm, that would most likely put a rod through the block or oil pan and spew fluid everywhere.

We won't know of course until it's torn down. My 3c.
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      02-26-2013, 10:33 PM   #66
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UPDATE:
New engine arrived today. 2010 N54 with 27K miles. I haven't seen it yet, by my mechanic said it looked good.
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