E90Post
 


MINHS Auto Care Center
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Snappety, Snap Snap!



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-24-2013, 08:23 PM   #1
vasillalov
Mad Linux Guru On The Loose
 
vasillalov's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335i Sedan
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL

Posts: 4,131
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 335i E90  [4.00]
Snappety, Snap Snap!

Today, in my infinite wisdom and against all prudent judgement, I decided to replace injector number 3 this afternoon. This exercise is nothing new to me. I've done this two more times already.

So I get busy and then I managed to snap the ASA bolt that holds the injector bracket:



I as able to make 2 complete turns of the bolt before it snapped off.

So this is a pretty messed up situation right now as cylinders 3 and 4 will have no compression at all. This means I can't drive the car.

My suspicion is that in the cold weather (4 degrees Centigrade) there was enough difference in contraction between the aluminium head and the steel ASA bolt. The bolt probably decided to dig in the head and carve a new thread in it. Then it got stuck and then I snapped it off.


Suggestions, opinions and ideas are highly appreciated at this point.
__________________
Equal Opportunity Harasser!
6MT | COBB | AR | AE | Forge DV | HPF | P3 Gauge | Hybrid Intake | O.S.Giken TCD | All M3 bits | TCKLine
vasillalov is offline   Bulgaria
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 08:28 PM   #2
kfrazie1
Lieutenant
 
kfrazie1's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NY

Posts: 441
iTrader: (4)

Easy out maybe?
__________________
Montego Blue E90 335i
7" VRSF IC | OFT Tune | DCI | RB PCV | Secondary CAT Delete & CYBA 3.75" Tips | M3 Front | CSL Trunk | 19" LC Dyna Wheels
kfrazie1 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 08:31 PM   #3
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,892
iTrader: (0)

How much torque do you think is on the bolt?
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 08:35 PM   #4
chicagob5
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 07 335i sedan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago

Posts: 259
iTrader: (0)

if you have JB weld, another bolt, some tape, string, a sparkler (like the firework) and a banana I can tell you how to get it out.
chicagob5 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 08:36 PM   #5
vasillalov
Mad Linux Guru On The Loose
 
vasillalov's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335i Sedan
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL

Posts: 4,131
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 335i E90  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
How much torque do you think is on the bolt?
Now THAT is the question. The bolt started off nicely. After the first full turn it got harder, then even harder. Then it snapped off. I have pretty strong arms and I had to put some effort into it, so I honestly do not know...
__________________
Equal Opportunity Harasser!
6MT | COBB | AR | AE | Forge DV | HPF | P3 Gauge | Hybrid Intake | O.S.Giken TCD | All M3 bits | TCKLine
vasillalov is offline   Bulgaria
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 08:37 PM   #6
vasillalov
Mad Linux Guru On The Loose
 
vasillalov's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335i Sedan
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL

Posts: 4,131
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 335i E90  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagob5 View Post
if you have JB weld, another bolt, some tape, string, a sparkler (like the firework) and a banana I can tell you how to get it out.
Surprisingly I DO have all that. Enlighten my feeble mind.
__________________
Equal Opportunity Harasser!
6MT | COBB | AR | AE | Forge DV | HPF | P3 Gauge | Hybrid Intake | O.S.Giken TCD | All M3 bits | TCKLine
vasillalov is offline   Bulgaria
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 08:43 PM   #7
Tzu
Major
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto

Posts: 1,427
iTrader: (1)

Can you heat the block and try a screw extractor?
Tzu is online now   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 08:43 PM   #8
joec500
Brigadier General
 
Drives: it has 4 wheels
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 3,004
iTrader: (10)

http://www.madelectrical.com/worksho...en-bolts.shtml
__________________
2007 E92 6MT SGM: MusicarNW Level 2, Procede Rev 2.5, FFTEC/Vishnu LPFP with Flexfuel Sensor and Flash, M3 Offset V701's, WaveTrac LSD, Michelin PSS, Downpipes, M3 Control Arms, TCKline D/A Suspension, LCI Tail lights, Lux AE's, ER Charge Pipe, DCI's, Mtech Front and Rear, M3 Sideskirts, HPF Stage 1 Clutch
joec500 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 08:48 PM   #9
chicagob5
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 07 335i sedan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago

Posts: 259
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Surprisingly I DO have all that. Enlighten my feeble mind.
Ok,

Take the JB weld and glue the bolt to the string.
eat the banana
play with the sparkler
???
Bolt out!

In all seriousness that looks like a pain in the ass. How far does is it sticking out?

Best way I found to get bolts like this out is to tack a nut to the top but since you're so close to the fuel system / in a tight spot im not sure thats such a hot (lol) idea.
chicagob5 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 09:39 PM   #10
cn555ic
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
cn555ic's Avatar
 
Drives: 917-939-4980
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York

Posts: 18,254
iTrader: (5)

Send a message via Yahoo to cn555ic
That is going to need to be drilled out and retap..There is no way around this man. The mess up part of all this is that you will have to take out the surrounding injectors to get some room in there to work on it...
__________________

Coding E and F New York 917-939-4980
cn555ic is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 10:16 PM   #11
07tundra
Major
 
Drives: TUNDRA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New Mexico

Posts: 1,083
iTrader: (9)

I use to remove bolts like that all the time in the Air Force off of million dollar aircraft. You need to drill the middle of it with a number 30 or 40 drill bit but have to be dead center! Then you get and easy out and clamp a vise grip to it place the easy out on top of the screw and tap it in with a hammer nothing crazy but you tap after a couple of tap you start turning the vise grip and you continue to tap it should come out. Titanium bolt use to break off near the exhaust of a F-15 thet would get brittle from the heat and we would remove them like the steps mentioned above. The key is when you drill the center of the shank you have to be dead center! It looks like you will have to remove more stuff to do this to clear up some space ...good luck
07tundra is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 10:21 PM   #12
vasillalov
Mad Linux Guru On The Loose
 
vasillalov's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335i Sedan
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL

Posts: 4,131
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 335i E90  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 07tundra View Post
I use to remove bolts like that all the time in the Air Force off of million dollar aircraft. You need to drill the middle of it with a number 30 or 40 drill bit but have to be dead center! Then you get and easy out and clamp a vise grip to it place the easy out on top of the screw and tap it in with a hammer nothing crazy but you tap after a couple of tap you start turning the vise grip and you continue to tap it should come out. Titanium bolt use to break off near the exhaust of a F-15 thet would get brittle from the heat and we would remove them like the steps mentioned above. The key is when you drill the center of the shank you have to be dead center! It looks like you will have to remove more stuff to do this to clear up some space ...good luck
Thanks for the input! Looks like I am going to tow it to a mechanic shop. I've never taken out a broken bolt like that before and I am afraid I'll do more damage than good.

This is a perfect example how a $2.50 part can turn into few hundreds of dollars in unexpected expenses!
__________________
Equal Opportunity Harasser!
6MT | COBB | AR | AE | Forge DV | HPF | P3 Gauge | Hybrid Intake | O.S.Giken TCD | All M3 bits | TCKLine
vasillalov is offline   Bulgaria
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 10:27 PM   #13
07tundra
Major
 
Drives: TUNDRA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New Mexico

Posts: 1,083
iTrader: (9)

I was wanting to change all of my injectors for the updated ones and now I'm second guessing it!
07tundra is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 10:31 PM   #14
Spoolin1
Private First Class
 
Spoolin1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 335i
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sellersburg, IN

Posts: 158
iTrader: (1)

That's not cool man. Remember next time that if the bolt starts getting tight, run it back in, back out until it gets tight again and back in, etc. This will eventually get the bolt out without breaking it. Seems you got a bit of aluminum threads ripped out and jammed as you were backing the bolt out. Always use some copper antiseize with steel bolts in aluminum. You'll get her out eventually but it won't be fun. If you have access to a welder, and enough of the broken bolt is exposed, try tack welding another bolt to it and do the in and out routine I mentioned.
__________________
07 335i
-AMS intercooler with Cobb AP stage 1+ 93 tune.
02 Honda S2000
-741 whp 471 wtq (dynojet) @ 29.6 psi on e85; now on 34 psi, 800+ whp.
Spoolin1 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 10:32 PM   #15
joec500
Brigadier General
 
Drives: it has 4 wheels
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 3,004
iTrader: (10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07tundra View Post
I was wanting to change all of my injectors for the updated ones and now I'm second guessing it!
This is the first time I have seen this on the forums and MANY people have DIY'd their injectors. Totally an outlier.
__________________
2007 E92 6MT SGM: MusicarNW Level 2, Procede Rev 2.5, FFTEC/Vishnu LPFP with Flexfuel Sensor and Flash, M3 Offset V701's, WaveTrac LSD, Michelin PSS, Downpipes, M3 Control Arms, TCKline D/A Suspension, LCI Tail lights, Lux AE's, ER Charge Pipe, DCI's, Mtech Front and Rear, M3 Sideskirts, HPF Stage 1 Clutch
joec500 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 10:36 PM   #16
Kommodore
New Member
 
Kommodore's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posts: 18
iTrader: (0)

I've done this with one of the valve cover ASA bolts. It will come out easy, using a portable drill and a bolt extractor. I started a hole in the center of the bolt with a regular drill bit, then switched to the extractor.
Kommodore is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 11:36 PM   #17
vasillalov
Mad Linux Guru On The Loose
 
vasillalov's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335i Sedan
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL

Posts: 4,131
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 335i E90  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoolin1 View Post
Seems you got a bit of aluminum threads ripped out and jammed as you were backing the bolt out.
No, that's not the case. The bolt snapped off deeper so what you are seeing is the thread inside the head. The piece that's left stuck is below the surface.

In all honesty, I think a lot of it had to do with the temperature. I've not driven the car for an entire week and it's been below freezing in Chicago.

The car is going to a shop on Tuesday and the work will be done by a master Porsche mechanic with 30+ years of experience. This should be a walk in the park for him.
__________________
Equal Opportunity Harasser!
6MT | COBB | AR | AE | Forge DV | HPF | P3 Gauge | Hybrid Intake | O.S.Giken TCD | All M3 bits | TCKLine
vasillalov is offline   Bulgaria
0
Reply With Quote
      02-25-2013, 03:21 PM   #18
MountainStone
Private
 
Drives: 08 335i Sedan
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vegas, baby

Posts: 68
iTrader: (0)

That sucks. Sounds like you have a solution that is acceptable to you, so I wish you godspeed.

For your future action, or for those learning in this thread, backing out snapped bolts can be done as related above by drilling a small pilot hole in the bolt and using an easy-out bolt extractor. As stated by the former AF maintainer, the key is to drill the center of the bolt. This should be done by first using a center-punch to dimple the center of the bolt. This will locate the drill bit, else the drill bit will 'walk' on you. Use WD-40 or other spray lube to spray the drill bit every few seconds when drilling the bolt; this cools the bit and bolt material and the lubrication greatly eases the cutting. It's easier to do than it sounds.

Anti-sieze is usually a good idea with two dissimilar metals but I dunno what BMW's policy is on anti-sieze, and keep in mind it will change your torque values as torque specs do not account for the lubricity of anti-sieze.
MountainStone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-25-2013, 03:49 PM   #19
eric@helix
 
eric@helix's Avatar
 
Drives: 01 M Coupe, 08 135i, '12 328i
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Philadelphia

Posts: 860
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07tundra View Post
I use to remove bolts like that all the time in the Air Force off of million dollar aircraft. You need to drill the middle of it with a number 30 or 40 drill bit but have to be dead center! Then you get and easy out and clamp a vise grip to it place the easy out on top of the screw and tap it in with a hammer nothing crazy but you tap after a couple of tap you start turning the vise grip and you continue to tap it should come out. Titanium bolt use to break off near the exhaust of a F-15 thet would get brittle from the heat and we would remove them like the steps mentioned above. The key is when you drill the center of the shank you have to be dead center! It looks like you will have to remove more stuff to do this to clear up some space ...good luck
^This, if you haven't pulled a burr into the threads, in which case you're going to have to get midieval on it.

I was down intrigued by McGuiver's sparkler answer--you had me going for a second.
eric@helix is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-25-2013, 04:14 PM   #20
Ænema
Captain
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Arizona Bay

Posts: 961
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cn555ic View Post
That is going to need to be drilled out and retap..There is no way around this man. The mess up part of all this is that you will have to take out the surrounding injectors to get some room in there to work on it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainStone View Post
That sucks. Sounds like you have a solution that is acceptable to you, so I wish you godspeed.

For your future action, or for those learning in this thread, backing out snapped bolts can be done as related above by drilling a small pilot hole in the bolt and using an easy-out bolt extractor. As stated by the former AF maintainer, the key is to drill the center of the bolt. This should be done by first using a center-punch to dimple the center of the bolt. This will locate the drill bit, else the drill bit will 'walk' on you. Use WD-40 or other spray lube to spray the drill bit every few seconds when drilling the bolt; this cools the bit and bolt material and the lubrication greatly eases the cutting. It's easier to do than it sounds.

Anti-sieze is usually a good idea with two dissimilar metals but I dunno what BMW's policy is on anti-sieze, and keep in mind it will change your torque values as torque specs do not account for the lubricity of anti-sieze.
All very good advice.
I'd say that works in 85% of all cases. Sometimes the threads are just too damaged and you have to oversive the hole and use a helicoil... But that's absolute worse case scenario.

OP, It sounds like whatever shop/mechanic you're using will have the experience to get you moving again.
__________________
"I'm not surprised you get along well with all the other neighbours. If you put fifty children with Down's syndrome in a room there is going to be a lot of hugging." David Thorne
Ænema is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-27-2013, 10:50 PM   #21
vasillalov
Mad Linux Guru On The Loose
 
vasillalov's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335i Sedan
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL

Posts: 4,131
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 335i E90  [4.00]
UPDATE:

Well, $120 later IT LIVES AGAIN!

They managed to remove the broken bolt completely without damaging the threads in the head. Very very clean execution and well worth the time and the money in my opinion. Once the bolt was removed, I had the injector replaced, coded in and the engine bay buttoned up in 30 minutes.

EDIT: They did not even have to remove any surrounding injectors, coils or wiring. I was totally impressed.
__________________
Equal Opportunity Harasser!
6MT | COBB | AR | AE | Forge DV | HPF | P3 Gauge | Hybrid Intake | O.S.Giken TCD | All M3 bits | TCKLine
vasillalov is offline   Bulgaria
0
Reply With Quote
      02-27-2013, 11:03 PM   #22
Ilma
Colonel
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: hometown

Posts: 2,531
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
UPDATE:

Well, $120 later IT LIVES AGAIN!

They managed to remove the broken bolt completely without damaging the threads in the head. Very very clean execution and well worth the time and the money in my opinion. Once the bolt was removed, I had the injector replaced, coded in and the engine bay buttoned up in 30 minutes.

EDIT: They did not even have to remove any surrounding injectors, coils or wiring. I was totally impressed.
Happy ending........funny what a little drama does to us now and then.
__________________
Sticky is an idiot
Ilma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:18 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST