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      03-05-2013, 09:06 AM   #23
doughboy
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I'd be up for a Stage 2+ clutch and a solid steel flywheel.

Do you think the stage 2+ is the best bet?
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      03-05-2013, 09:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
I think that sounds like a great solution, good solid steel heavy single mass flywheel and upgraded clutch.

The shipping will be significant form the US though, have you priced it up Idnan?
Approx $150 from the USA for just the flywheel. Although I'm sure customs won't be too much
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      03-05-2013, 11:25 AM   #25
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I've found it 100% successful to ask US shippers to put 'warranty replacement' on the paperwork and it results it no duty.

Works every time, touch wood
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      03-05-2013, 03:42 PM   #26
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Just looked back at my quote from the UK Dist:

Spec stage 2+ = £633.58 Inc Delivery and VAT

Aluminium FW = £496.25 Inc Delivery and VAT

Fitting of both £250 Inc..

I'll send the guy a message about:

3 Steel FWs
2 Spec Stage 2+ clutches

See what he can do...
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      03-05-2013, 04:08 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
Marcel has a HPF Stage 1 and I have the stage 2 but he has issues with the vibration in higher gears like me so might go SMF as well. His Clutchmasters one failed on the first outing to the Ring IIRC.
Idnan, did you also experience clutch judder on you HPF Stage 2? Marcel drove my car before deciding on the stage 1 option. Stage 2 is a bit on the heavy side, but I have gotten used to it now and I don't really notice it. My clutch judder is also becoming less and less. Initially it was pretty bad and difficult to drive. But with more miles on it and some track days it's starting to feel more bedded in. I currently got 12000 miles on it and the only issue recently is that it's started to make the occasional squeak when engaging. Hopefully it's not a sign of it being worn.

On the positive side I never had it slip or feel like it wouldn't hold, but I'm not sure I would buy it again. I would be interested to hear your experience if you go down the Spec stage 2+ route.

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      03-06-2013, 03:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
Approx $150 from the USA for just the flywheel. Although I'm sure customs won't be too much
Suprisingly, the Spec steel flywheel costs more to buy (and ship as its heavier) than the lightweight ally one.....

There must be cheaper options for a simple solid steel flywheel??
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      03-06-2013, 04:17 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
Marcel has a HPF Stage 1 and I have the stage 2 but he has issues with the vibration in higher gears like me so might go SMF as well. His Clutchmasters one failed on the first outing to the Ring IIRC.
Yeah, that's right. At the same time that I had the RB turbos installed, I also had the ClutchMasters FX300 put in. After bedding it in for around 1000 miles I did a trip to the 'Ring with it and it failed miserably, slippage in 4th to 6th gear.

I then had it replaced by the HPF Feramic stage 1, after having driven Lars' car with the stage 2. In the end I think though that the engagement between stage 1 and 2 is not that much different. It's noticeably stiffer than with the CM clutch, let alone the OEM one. The HPF works fine, no slippage at all, just the engagement is not very smooth and there's still quite a bit of judder depending on how I engage the clutch.

The issue I'm having now is not the clutch but rather the flywheel. When installing the CM FX300, a new flywheel was also installed. When installing the HPF clutch, the flywheel was replaced again as apparently the (second) original one already had lots of play in it.

In the end it's rather obvious that the original dual mass flywheel is not up to cope with the massive torque that my car (and idnan's) are putting out. That's at least in my opinion the reason why we get these vibrations from the drivetrain when going WOT, and why I'm now consistently getting misfires in the high rev range which are caused by the knock sensors that confuse the massive drivetrain vibrations with a knock event.

A temporary bypass will probably be to deactivate the knock detection (COBB can do that), but in the end it seems I'll have to go with a single mass flywheel. As the aluminium ones are quite noisy, I'm currently also leaning towards the Spec steel flywheel. Ideally however I'd like to combine that with my current HPF clutch as I don't want to buy still another clutch (I'd really like to spend my hard-earned money on other things than clutches...).

So if you're doing a group buy on Spec clutches and flywheels I'm potentially interested as well.

Alpina_B3_Lux
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      03-06-2013, 04:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
Just looked back at my quote from the UK Dist:

Spec stage 2+ = £633.58 Inc Delivery and VAT

Aluminium FW = £496.25 Inc Delivery and VAT

Fitting of both £250 Inc..

I'll send the guy a message about:

3 Steel FWs
2 Spec Stage 2+ clutches

See what he can do...
Do you know how heavy the Aluminium FW is? I could also be interested in that.
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      03-06-2013, 04:34 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
...... it seems I'll have to go with a single mass flywheel. As the aluminium ones are quite noisy, I'm currently also leaning towards the Spec steel flywheel....
Thanks Marcel, as ever!

Re the 'noise' issue, this is surely just gearbox shaft rattles ususally masked at idle by the DMF, a slight raise in idle speed should sort that out, to say 800/900.

What other issues / problems do you know about with the solid Ally flywheels?

Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicktyler View Post
Do you know how heavy the Aluminium FW is? I could also be interested in that.
Spec data is 22lbs steel and 14lbs ally.
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      03-06-2013, 04:51 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335rocks View Post
Idnan, did you also experience clutch judder on you HPF Stage 2? Marcel drove my car before deciding on the stage 1 option. Stage 2 is a bit on the heavy side, but I have gotten used to it now and I don't really notice it. My clutch judder is also becoming less and less. Initially it was pretty bad and difficult to drive. But with more miles on it and some track days it's starting to feel more bedded in. I currently got 12000 miles on it and the only issue recently is that it's started to make the occasional squeak when engaging. Hopefully it's not a sign of it being worn.

On the positive side I never had it slip or feel like it wouldn't hold, but I'm not sure I would buy it again. I would be interested to hear your experience if you go down the Spec stage 2+ route.
I'm at about 1000miles and the judder is still quite bad and it is difficult to drive at the moment. I'm used to having a heavy clutch coming from the ACT Street that I had on there before. It's good to know that it should get better with a few more miles. I don't doubt that it will hold the power and I'm not a drag strip addict so I'm not so worried about welding it together. If I need a new clutch then I'm going for the Spec stage 3+ which was my initial choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Yeah, that's right. At the same time that I had the RB turbos installed, I also had the ClutchMasters FX300 put in. After bedding it in for around 1000 miles I did a trip to the 'Ring with it and it failed miserably, slippage in 4th to 6th gear.

I then had it replaced by the HPF Feramic stage 1, after having driven Lars' car with the stage 2. In the end I think though that the engagement between stage 1 and 2 is not that much different. It's noticeably stiffer than with the CM clutch, let alone the OEM one. The HPF works fine, no slippage at all, just the engagement is not very smooth and there's still quite a bit of judder depending on how I engage the clutch.

The issue I'm having now is not the clutch but rather the flywheel. When installing the CM FX300, a new flywheel was also installed. When installing the HPF clutch, the flywheel was replaced again as apparently the (second) original one already had lots of play in it.

In the end it's rather obvious that the original dual mass flywheel is not up to cope with the massive torque that my car (and idnan's) are putting out. That's at least in my opinion the reason why we get these vibrations from the drivetrain when going WOT, and why I'm now consistently getting misfires in the high rev range which are caused by the knock sensors that confuse the massive drivetrain vibrations with a knock event.

A temporary bypass will probably be to deactivate the knock detection (COBB can do that), but in the end it seems I'll have to go with a single mass flywheel. As the aluminium ones are quite noisy, I'm currently also leaning towards the Spec steel flywheel. Ideally however I'd like to combine that with my current HPF clutch as I don't want to buy still another clutch (I'd really like to spend my hard-earned money on other things than clutches...).

So if you're doing a group buy on Spec clutches and flywheels I'm potentially interested as well.

Alpina_B3_Lux
How is your car reporting the misfire? Does it go into limp mode and reduced power? Mine went into limp mode at about 6000rpm in 4th yesterday and I have a feeling it has something to do with the FW and the vibrations.

I'm in the same boat and I've put the question to both Spec and HPF on the other forum about using their products together. With such a new clutch in mine I have no urge to change it. I'm getting these issues on just pump gas, I've not even fitted my meth kit back on yet

And it is highly interesting that your first flywheel had so much play in it as I had exactly the same issue with my replacement one at 10k. Even such that LUK saw fit to give me a refund as I had already bought a replacement one. I was doubtful that mine had failed so quickly but I suppose at these power levels anything is possible.
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      03-06-2013, 04:53 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicktyler View Post
Do you know how heavy the Aluminium FW is? I could also be interested in that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
Just looked back at my quote from the UK Dist:

Spec stage 2+ = £633.58 Inc Delivery and VAT

Aluminium FW = £496.25 Inc Delivery and VAT

Fitting of both £250 Inc..

I'll send the guy a message about:

3 Steel FWs
2 Spec Stage 2+ clutches

See what he can do...
Good stuff, I'm going to do mine myself so I don't need fitting.

I'm hopefully going to get INPA working so will look into raising the idle speed if we all go down this route.
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      03-06-2013, 04:57 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
How is your car reporting the misfire? Does it go into limp mode and reduced power? Mine went into limp mode at about 6000rpm in 4th yesterday and I have a feeling it has something to do with the FW and the vibrations.
Above 6k rpm it reports a misfire in cylinders 5 and 6 and goes into limp mode, i.e. shutting those two cylinders down. I've also datalogged this several times and there is no indication whatsoever of any timing retards or knock events. Someone on the 'other forum' had exactly the same issue (including the drivetrain vibrations) and the single mass flywheel cured that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
I'm in the same boat and I've put the question to both Spec and HPF on the other forum about using their products together. With such a new clutch in mine I have no urge to change it. I'm getting these issues on just pump gas, I've not even fitted my meth kit back on yet
Yes, same here, I'm getting these misfires on 98 octane fuel and haven't even tried out an even more powerful meth map yet (or E85). But the car is already freakishly fast as it is anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
And it is highly interesting that your first flywheel had so much play in it as I had exactly the same issue with my replacement one at 10k. Even such that LUK saw fit to give me a refund as I had already bought a replacement one. I was doubtful that mine had failed so quickly but I suppose at these power levels anything is possible.
In the 'other forum' there are a few photos of an OEM flywheel that someone took apart. Looked really flimsy and therefor no surprise it doesn't hold up to the more than 700Nm torque that we're abusing it with.

I hope we'll get an answer from Spec or HPF...

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      03-06-2013, 05:19 AM   #35
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I may still go Ali fw.

Seems to give a noticeable improvement in responsiveness and makes the car lighter on its feet..

I do very little sitting still idling - the time when you hear chatter. By dipping the clutch the rattle goes away anyway. There is still chatter on the steel SMFW but not so bad..

Here is a car with spec stage 3 and Ali fw. I contacted him for feedback he has put 40,000 miles on this setup and loves it - I think he also has RBs

http://youtu.be/9bP_H28U_2Q
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      03-06-2013, 06:10 AM   #36
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+1 Phil,

I like the increased engine response given by the lighter flywheel, i'm sure it changes the way the car feels quite significantly when driven.

Almost looking forward to it really (not looking forward to paying for it though..)
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      03-06-2013, 06:44 AM   #37
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I know it may be a silly comment. And I am unsure of pricing.

But why not upgrade the clutch to an oem one considering it has lasted this long? Phil are you going to be upgrading your turbos or anything or sticking with your current setup? If you aren't going more powerful, maybe a brand new stock clutch could hold for another 50k?
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      03-06-2013, 06:56 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh1a1h View Post
I know it may be a silly comment. And I am unsure of pricing.

But why not upgrade the clutch to an oem one considering it has lasted this long? Phil are you going to be upgrading your turbos or anything or sticking with your current setup? If you aren't going more powerful, maybe a brand new stock clutch could hold for another 50k?
OEM clutches aren't that cheap and considering he has probably done less than 20k tuned it is unlikely that it will last that long. Considering the labour cost on top, it is best to do it right first time. I've learnt that the hard way I'm lucky that I can DIY but it is a ballache.
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      03-06-2013, 07:28 AM   #39
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Quote:
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....why not upgrade the clutch to an oem one.....
A slight contradiction there, you can't upgrade back to where you started from! Throwing good money at a new clutch you know will fail is probably not good sense. Plus labour of course.

The OE clutches aren't cheap, and mine has failed at 42k, but about 25k tuned.
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      03-06-2013, 07:36 AM   #40
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Whoops sorry that was a mistake.

Carry on discussing. I have no idea how a stock clutch competes price wise..

I will go back and hide behind the screen now
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      03-06-2013, 03:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
Just looked back at my quote from the UK Dist:

Spec stage 2+ = £633.58 Inc Delivery and VAT

Aluminium FW = £496.25 Inc Delivery and VAT

Fitting of both £250 Inc..

I'll send the guy a message about:

3 Steel FWs
2 Spec Stage 2+ clutches

See what he can do...
Thats pretty reasonable, the SPEC list price is $579 for the ally FW and $839 for the Stage 2+ clutch.

So total $1418 @ 0.66£/$ = £935 even before shipping and duty etc.

So £1102 from a UK supplier is alright in my book, maybe with more discount to come.....
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      03-06-2013, 03:23 PM   #42
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Not to mention someone to speak to with any issues...

For £250 I'd probably get them to fit mine..
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      03-06-2013, 05:36 PM   #43
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I've had a tech reply from David Norton at specclutch.

He said he personally runs the ally fw in a 335is and it gave the biggesr dyno increase of any single application they have tested.

Plus 17.2 rwhp apparently....
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      03-07-2013, 03:44 AM   #44
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Didn't expect a power increase - bonus! I guess it will make a big difference to transmission losses due to the lower inertia required to turn a much lighter FW.

I might get these fitted at the same time:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=810291
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