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      03-06-2013, 10:18 AM   #89
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Wow. Meth has always scared the hell out of me. Too many horror stories out there.
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      03-06-2013, 10:21 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by SneakyDeeky View Post
Mechanic and I discussed this today and he's going to do a thorough examination prior to install. Based on how the failure occurred, he thought there was a good chance the turbos stopped spooling prior to any metal shavings circulating through the oil line. Any concern or sign of metal fragments will cause us to use the higher mileage turbos that came with the replacement engine. Who knows, maybe RB turbo upgrade later?
Good luck with the rebuild as you know a 100% oil flush of all lines and components is required before the rebuild to make sure none of the failure shavings are left behind.

There is a super car for sale e46 M3 track ready if someone is looking for one. Too bad it is not a Canadian car --->Check it out here
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      03-06-2013, 11:05 AM   #91
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Wow. Meth has always scared the hell out of me. Too many horror stories out there.
Me too and that was before I saw this one. Ran an early aquamist system on a supercharged car for a while (in lieu of an IC), was never able to get it to run right 100% of the time. Mainly air bubbles in the lines and the lines would drain back into the tank if it sat too long. Could never tune for it reliably but this was almost 20 years ago. Thought they'd be better by now and I guess they are but maybe not exactly bulletproof.
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      03-06-2013, 11:16 AM   #92
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one of the reasons i would never skimp on a methanol system if you choose to run it.

Aquamist or nothing. I paid over $1,000 for my system alone with no tank, its worked flawlessly and Jeff Howerton is a genius with the systems. Doesn't get any better.
This.
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      03-06-2013, 11:34 AM   #93
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This is interesting. What controls the methanol flow though, isn't it the BMS Solenoid? I think there must be a specific part in the system that failed to allow this to happen. Would be nice if Shiv or Mike could chime in.

I'm concerned because I am running the same system among probably hundreds of other people and I will have to upgrade parts or change things prior to Vargas stage 2.
I've never heard of this type of a failure before. Both the pump and solenoid would need to get stuck on to allow meth to spray off-boost and they run on independent circuits on the FSB unless it's one of the really old ones. Might be worth OP sending the FSB in to have that tested to determine if it failed and why.

I've never thought about it before but I suppose any meth kit electronics could get stuck on with the right kind of a failure. The best way to protect against it would be with a physical boost switch as an override. Like a circuit breaker if you will. Unless boost is over say 6psi the meth pump can't power on. Does the Aquamist controller use a physical boost line for reference?

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      03-06-2013, 11:43 AM   #94
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^Aquamists are either set up to flow on either injector duty cycle or boost.

I prefer IDC.
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      03-06-2013, 11:49 AM   #95
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^Aquamists are either set up to flow on either injector duty cycle or boost.

I prefer IDC.
Right but say a wire comes loose or gets interference from another signal, causing the controller to think it should be spraying, is there some sort of physical boost switch override? What would stop it from getting stuck on?

I know Vishnu used to have one on their early WW kits but abandoned it at some point. Might be a good idea for everyone with a meth kit to install a basic boost switch safety if this becomes a common failure.

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      03-06-2013, 11:59 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Right but say a wire comes loose or gets interference from another signal, causing the controller to think it should be spraying, is there some sort of physical boost switch override? What would stop it from getting stuck on?

I know Vishnu used to have one on their early WW kits but abandoned it at some point. Might be a good idea for everyone with a meth kit to install a basic boost switch safety if this becomes a common failure.

Mike
I see what your saying, something not part of the actual meth kit, an add on for a redundant safety system.
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      03-06-2013, 02:24 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I know Vishnu used to have one on their early WW kits but abandoned it at some point. Might be a good idea for everyone with a meth kit to install a basic boost switch safety if this becomes a common failure.

Mike
Pretty sure they still have it there, it's no longer mounted on the CP however.
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      03-06-2013, 02:38 PM   #98
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Definitely let us know what the teardown reveals.

I'm still having a tough time understanding how meth flowing at the CM10 (default meth nozzle for the BMS WW kit, which I have myself) rate of 800cc/min could flood an engine.

I don't know how much meth would be needed to flood an engine to the point where it could lock, but I'd imagine it would have to be somewhere near the size of the combustion chamber (around 40ccs) volume. So, the math I'm struggling with is:
1) 800cc/min flow from CM10 nozzle on static flow = 13.34 cc/sec
2) 40cc combustion chambers fill *once every other rev*
3) 6 Combustion chambers getting roughly equal liquid distribution
4) X engine RPM

So even at idle (600rpm or 10 revs/sec), you get 5 fills per combustion chamber per second = 1200ccs (1.2L) per second of combustion chamber volume. So I'm struggling to understand how 13cc/sec of fluid could overwhelm an engine that can move thousands of ccs/sec depending on what RPM it's running.

If the meth nozzle were removed and you starting flowing 10x the amount of fluid then maybe but it the numbers don't seem to add up to me.

Not defending Burger or CM either and I don't blame you if you wanted to move away from meth in general. It has it's drawbacks.

Again, sorry for the loss and hope you get out of it with your bank account somewhat intact.
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      03-06-2013, 02:50 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianBullet View Post
Definitely let us know what the teardown reveals.

I'm still having a tough time understanding how meth flowing at the CM10 (default meth nozzle for the BMS WW kit, which I have myself) rate of 800cc/min could flood an engine.

I don't know how much meth would be needed to flood an engine to the point where it could lock, but I'd imagine it would have to be somewhere near the size of the combustion chamber (around 40ccs) volume. So, the math I'm struggling with is:
1) 800cc/min flow from CM10 nozzle on static flow = 13.34 cc/sec
2) 40cc combustion chambers fill *once every other rev*
3) 6 Combustion chambers getting roughly equal liquid distribution
4) X engine RPM

So even at idle (600rpm or 10 revs/sec), you get 5 fills per combustion chamber per second = 1200ccs (1.2L) per second of combustion chamber volume. So I'm struggling to understand how 13cc/sec of fluid could overwhelm an engine that can move thousands of ccs/sec depending on what RPM it's running.

If the meth nozzle were removed and you starting flowing 10x the amount of fluid then maybe but it the numbers don't seem to add up to me.

Not defending Burger or CM either and I don't blame you if you wanted to move away from meth in general. It has it's drawbacks.

Again, sorry for the loss and hope you get out of it with your bank account somewhat intact.
yeah seems very unlikely to me as well....
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      03-06-2013, 04:13 PM   #100
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i'm gonna throw my blind guess into the ring since i'm concerned about my meth injection too.
I wonder if there were poor atomization and the water part of the 50/50 boost juice is pooling in the intake manifold. When you accelerate for extended period of time, they are sucked to the back of the manifold (cyl 6 intake).
I wonder if 100% meth would've prevent this pooling because they would evaporate quicker.

on a side note, isn't vishnu's PWM uses boost switch to turn on/off the pump already? or is that not the fail safe that people are talking about?
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      03-06-2013, 04:26 PM   #101
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Back in the pre-computer days we used Hobbs switches to turn meth/water mix on & off. Ran a setup by Edelbrock on my 67 Vette. Nothing new, the Luftwaffe used meth/water on their fuel injected fighters in WWII as a detonation suppressor on its emergency overboost get out of Dodge system.
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      03-06-2013, 05:39 PM   #102
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Back in the pre-computer days we used Hobbs switches to turn meth/water mix on & off. Ran a setup by Edelbrock on my 67 Vette. Nothing new, the Luftwaffe used meth/water on their fuel injected fighters in WWII as a detonation suppressor on its emergency overboost get out of Dodge system.
Riveting tale. Could you tell it again please?
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      03-06-2013, 07:43 PM   #103
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so you were using the FSB ?
Yes - FSB was installed per BMS Installation Guide.
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      03-06-2013, 07:58 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I've never heard of this type of a failure before. Both the pump and solenoid would need to get stuck on to allow meth to spray off-boost and they run on independent circuits on the FSB unless it's one of the really old ones. Might be worth OP sending the FSB in to have that tested to determine if it failed and why.
I'd be more than happy to send the FSB in for testing, especially if it could help others avoid a similar outcome.

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yeah seems very unlikely to me as well....
If I had to bet money on what caused the failure, I would not have guessed this. In fact, I'd have guessed the opposite as I thought it was far more likely that the lack of methanol and the octane it provides was what caused the issue. Honestly, I don't know what to think at this point.

All I know is that my savings towards a dedicated track car just took a $10K hit (not sure on exact cost yet as labor is still adding up). Plus, since I'm swapping engines I'm having some other work done too like cleaning the carbon build-up, installing a new thermostat and water pump, new SPEC Stage 2+ clutch, and a Quaife LSD. Once it's running again, I'll probably swap the JB4 for a Cobb... all of which uses up my track car savings.
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      03-06-2013, 09:13 PM   #105
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wow thats some scary stuff I will hold off on meth and just have.....FBO + E85/93
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      03-07-2013, 12:53 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianBullet View Post
Definitely let us know what the teardown reveals.

I'm still having a tough time understanding how meth flowing at the CM10 (default meth nozzle for the BMS WW kit, which I have myself) rate of 800cc/min could flood an engine.

I don't know how much meth would be needed to flood an engine to the point where it could lock, but I'd imagine it would have to be somewhere near the size of the combustion chamber (around 40ccs) volume. So, the math I'm struggling with is:
1) 800cc/min flow from CM10 nozzle on static flow = 13.34 cc/sec
2) 40cc combustion chambers fill *once every other rev*
3) 6 Combustion chambers getting roughly equal liquid distribution
4) X engine RPM

So even at idle (600rpm or 10 revs/sec), you get 5 fills per combustion chamber per second = 1200ccs (1.2L) per second of combustion chamber volume. So I'm struggling to understand how 13cc/sec of fluid could overwhelm an engine that can move thousands of ccs/sec depending on what RPM it's running.

If the meth nozzle were removed and you starting flowing 10x the amount of fluid then maybe but it the numbers don't seem to add up to me.

Not defending Burger or CM either and I don't blame you if you wanted to move away from meth in general. It has it's drawbacks.

Again, sorry for the loss and hope you get out of it with your bank account somewhat intact.
This. Their hydrolock diagnoses is not logical.

Did some of the meth kit components work differently than supposed? Which components and how?

Reading the codes may help to understand what happened.

Last edited by jippii ensio; 03-07-2013 at 01:56 AM.
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      03-07-2013, 10:12 AM   #107
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This. Their hydrolock diagnoses is not logical.

Did some of the meth kit components work differently than supposed? Which components and how?

Reading the codes may help to understand what happened.
I agree code reading is top of the list too.

Doing some basic checks of the solenoid by applying power to it with and without the pump on will tell you if the system is working well. Do that then send it in to Burger for their analysis as well.
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      03-07-2013, 02:42 PM   #108
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Riveting tale. Could you tell it again please?
Kind of a d-ck thing to say, don't you think?
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      03-08-2013, 02:44 PM   #109
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      03-08-2013, 04:08 PM   #110
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"meth, not even once"? whatever.... Shit happens, don't get scared, get smart, learn exactly what happened, share the knowledge, hopefully it can help others in the future. But hey, if you just say no to meth there'll be more for me!
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