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      03-07-2013, 12:49 AM   #1
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Race Gas, E85, and Meth

Can all of these be used in conjunction?
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      03-07-2013, 12:53 AM   #2
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Race gas would be useless if you had e85 and meth..
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      03-07-2013, 12:53 AM   #3
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No point in mixing race gas and e85. The purpose behind e85 is cheap race gas(the impressive cooling ability is just a great bonus.) If e85 is easily available that would be my choice. If you're serious about it then stick a walboro pump in the tank and call it a day.

As far as meth goes, hell yes you can run it on top and the car will love you for it. Nothing works at CAT control quite as well as chemical cooling.
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      03-07-2013, 01:36 AM   #4
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race gas will have far more power output than E85, and used with meth even more so
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      03-07-2013, 04:09 AM   #5
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You will be able to get more power from racegas on OEM pump but if E85 is easily available that is the way to go for most. If you run out of fueling do as Ænema said, stick a Walbro in there..
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      03-07-2013, 04:39 AM   #6
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Unleaded race gas has similar octane rating to e85 summer blend, but doesn't have the cooling benefits.
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      03-07-2013, 06:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio
Unleaded race gas has similar octane rating to e85 summer blend, but doesn't have the cooling benefits.
+1. Go FTW oxygenated E85 and annihilate all.
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      03-19-2013, 01:14 AM   #8
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My thoughts are this... Since the E85 is to be mixed with 93 octane fuel, mixing it in the same proportions, but with race gas could provide better results. Am I wrong here? It would have the cooling benefits of E85, while producing insane octane numbers.
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      03-19-2013, 01:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johmei View Post
You will be able to get more power from racegas on OEM pump but if E85 is easily available that is the way to go for most. If you run out of fueling do as Ænema said, stick a Walbro in there..
Not true. If you are setup to run e85 it has advantage in everyway over race fuel. Higher equivelent octane, more cooling benefits and ability to run more aggressive tune because of these.

e85 will be worse on gas mileage and make less power per unit of e85 but motor ouput simply adapts and uses more fuel to make the power and the power output is by far more with e85 if tuned for it

E85 is race gas plus additional cooling benefits. (not true race gas but functionally speaking)
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      03-19-2013, 03:41 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Not true. If you are setup to run e85 it has advantage in everyway over race fuel. Higher equivelent octane, more cooling benefits and ability to run more aggressive tune because of these.

e85 will be worse on gas mileage and make less power per unit of e85 but motor ouput simply adapts and uses more fuel to make the power and the power output is by far more with e85 if tuned for it

E85 is race gas plus additional cooling benefits. (not true race gas but functionally speaking)
What you are saying is true "if you are setup for e85", however you will be able to push more power out of racegas as it is more dense on OEM pumps, you will run out of fueling on E85 pretty soon. Myself at E40, still on OEM FPs, Walbro next.
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      03-19-2013, 08:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemw335 View Post
Race gas would be useless if you had e85 and meth..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
No point in mixing race gas and e85. The purpose behind e85 is cheap race gas(the impressive cooling ability is just a great bonus.) If e85 is easily available that would be my choice. If you're serious about it then stick a walboro pump in the tank and call it a day.

As far as meth goes, hell yes you can run it on top and the car will love you for it. Nothing works at CAT control quite as well as chemical cooling.
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Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Not true. If you are setup to run e85 it has advantage in everyway over race fuel. Higher equivelent octane, more cooling benefits and ability to run more aggressive tune because of these.


FYI - E85 has an effective octane of about 96 by itself (85% ethanol). It is not race gas, if you are referring to octane rating.

Race gas, depending on the blend, can be MUCH higher (100+)

That alone will net a difference. There is a huge misconception that E85 is 105 octace (i thought this as well). But it's not, and once people understand this it will be easier to understand how race gas can contribute even when running e85.

I don't claim to have it all figured out, but the octane alone is a big difference.


I made this, it might help show how the three fuels, 93, e85, and race gas, can effect octane.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B66v...it?usp=sharing

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      03-19-2013, 10:41 AM   #12
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For DI, the effective octane of E85 is something like 130. All fuels have a higher effective octane with DI, but the more energy needed to vaporize the larger the difference in "officially" measured octane (by a PI test engine) versus actual benefits of the fuel in DI. Methanol is better than ethanol, but its difficult for race gas to outperform unless it is oxygenated.
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      03-20-2013, 03:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillionPa View Post
race gas will have far more power output than E85, and used with meth even more so
Incorrect. 100% E85 tunes very much like C16 leaded race gas and will produce similar power numbers. Q16 will probably produce better numbers than E85, but at 4-6 times the price per gallon, why bother? The hurdle on this platform is the ability to use 100% E85, although it looks as if we are getting closer.



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Originally Posted by n54door View Post
FYI - E85 has an effective octane of about 96 by itself (85% ethanol). It is not race gas, if you are referring to octane rating.

Race gas, depending on the blend, can be MUCH higher (100+)

That alone will net a difference. There is a huge misconception that E85 is 105 octace (i thought this as well). But it's not, and once people understand this it will be easier to understand how race gas can contribute even when running e85.

I don't claim to have it all figured out, but the octane alone is a big difference.


I made this, it might help show how the three fuels, 93, e85, and race gas, can effect octane.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B66v...it?usp=sharing


You are wasting your time on the semantics of octane rating. It doesn't matter. Leave the BMW World for a little bit and go do some exploring on platforms that have been using and tuning with E85 for more than just a year. Check out the EVO guys. Check out the Subaru Guys. Check out what the GTR and boosted Chevy LS guys are doing. There is so much info out there that proves E85 is equivalent to high test race gasoline across all these platforms. Quit hanging yourself up on the octane rating.

Last edited by biz77; 03-20-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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      03-20-2013, 03:28 PM   #14
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On the COBB website they have a Dyno chart that expresses 100 (AKI) Octane and E30 (30% Ethanol) showing same or similar results. This was just based upon the red graph line showing Race/E30 as the same curve.

This is mostly my interpretation of the graph, but the point I am trying to make is that, it would appear that only 30% Ethanol mixed with premium fuel is equal to full tank of Race Fuel, 100 AKI Octane, As far as power is concerned.
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      03-20-2013, 03:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
You are wasting your time on the semantics of octane rating. It doesn't matter. Leave the BMW World for a little bit and go do some exploring on platforms that have been using and tuning with E85 for more than just a year. Check out the EVO guys. Check out the Subaru Guys. Check out what the GTR and boosted Chevy LS guys are doing. There is so much info out there that proves E85 is equivalent to high test race gasoline across all these platforms. Quit hanging yourself up on the octane rating.
there is nothing wrong with calculators, which is a great way to know your approx. fuel blends. I believe n54door was just trying to clear up some misconception of what people think the octane rating is for E85. Sure there are many factors, but the fact is E85 is 105 RON (per wiki), which is equivalent to 96 AKI USA Octane, which is the rating we use here in the USA. R+M/2 = AKI. apples to apples, that's all.

Does this really matter? perhaps, but logs tell all and anyone who is tuning is basing how your car responds, not based on octane rating alone.
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      03-20-2013, 08:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
For DI, the effective octane of E85 is something like 130. All fuels have a higher effective octane with DI, but the more energy needed to vaporize the larger the difference in "officially" measured octane (by a PI test engine) versus actual benefits of the fuel in DI. Methanol is better than ethanol, but its difficult for race gas to outperform unless it is oxygenated.
DI cars do have a cooling effect, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest the effective octane is 130 with E85. I'm also not sure what % of E85 you're basing this on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
You are wasting your time on the semantics of octane rating. It doesn't matter. Leave the BMW World for a little bit and go do some exploring on platforms that have been using and tuning with E85 for more than just a year. Check out the EVO guys. Check out the Subaru Guys. Check out what the GTR and boosted Chevy LS guys are doing. There is so much info out there that proves E85 is equivalent to high test race gasoline across all these platforms. Quit hanging yourself up on the octane rating.

I spent about a half hour of my time on this. I wouldn't call it a waste.

My original intent was make an easy tool to show the estimated percentage of e85 mixed in the tank. I added octane as well for good measure. The entire thread explains the octane will not be exact, only approximate relative to the fuel itself, not the car.

As VNeBLOB42 said, it also helps others understand where in the ballpark their octane is as many believe E85 is 105 octane, or equivalent to 'race gas' (people often say this loosly). This isn't pure science, obviously nobody here is taking fuel samples and running it through a lab... we're just estimating based on facture fuel data and mix ratios.

I'm also very familiar with E85, I ran it on my 400whp Built STi for three years.
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      03-20-2013, 09:51 PM   #17
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^^^It was a very cool study by MIT comparing DI and PI with pump and various mixes of E85. Very simply detonation is a result of end gas temps which is directly related to charge air temp. IATs were manipulated, detonation measured, and octane rating calculated based on this. Actually E85 octane could not be estimated due to equipment limitations, so the estimated octane was based on E50. My 130 is just a guess... I don't remember the details of the study, but I do remember a very large discrepancy to pump gas... much greater than 10-15 points.
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      03-20-2013, 11:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
^^^It was a very cool study by MIT comparing DI and PI with pump and various mixes of E85. Very simply detonation is a result of end gas temps which is directly related to charge air temp. IATs were manipulated, detonation measured, and octane rating calculated based on this. Actually E85 octane could not be estimated due to equipment limitations, so the estimated octane was based on E50. My 130 is just a guess... I don't remember the details of the study, but I do remember a very large discrepancy to pump gas... much greater than 10-15 points.
Right, DI would have a different affect. Didn't think about that...
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      03-21-2013, 12:47 AM   #19
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DI cars do have a cooling effect, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest the effective octane is 130 with E85. I'm also not sure what % of E85 you're basing this on.




I spent about a half hour of my time on this. I wouldn't call it a waste.

My original intent was make an easy tool to show the estimated percentage of e85 mixed in the tank. I added octane as well for good measure. The entire thread explains the octane will not be exact, only approximate relative to the fuel itself, not the car.

As VNeBLOB42 said, it also helps others understand where in the ballpark their octane is as many believe E85 is 105 octane, or equivalent to 'race gas' (people often say this loosly). This isn't pure science, obviously nobody here is taking fuel samples and running it through a lab... we're just estimating based on facture fuel data and mix ratios.

I'm also very familiar with E85, I ran it on my 400whp Built STi for three years.
E85 is said to have an octane rating of around 96 R+M/2. It allows timing advance on par with and makes similar power (most times it makes MORE power than Q16 on forced induction applications) to a fuel that has a R+M/2 rating of 118. Why do we care what the calculated octane rating is?

Your tool is useful for showing ethanol content.

I started tuning Subarus on E85 in 2005.
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      03-21-2013, 01:16 AM   #20
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race gas will have far more power output than E85, and used with meth even more so
Sorry, but I think you need to do some more reading.

With E85 you need to increase your fueling by @ 30% which in turn allows for a minimum 5% hp gain over race gas. Now put meth on top of that to cool your intake charge along with some stupid 16 to 17 deg timing. Not to mention cooler cylinders and exhaust temps... Now that sounds like a great setup. Oh wait, that's what I'm running.
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      03-21-2013, 10:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
E85 is said to have an octane rating of around 96 R+M/2. It allows timing advance on par with and makes similar power (most times it makes MORE power than Q16 on forced induction applications) to a fuel that has a R+M/2 rating of 118. Why do we care what the calculated octane rating is?

Your tool is useful for showing ethanol content.

I started tuning Subarus on E85 in 2005.

Personally, I don't care too much about the octane value as I have no use for it. It's just an indicator, and can be referenced for conversation, really.

I'm not a tuner, so it really doesn't matter too much for me. And given that every e85 pump is different, we all understand it's not something to get hung up on.

I had fun making it, that's all.


On a related subject, I was thinking about this the other day - people say 'Some cars can handle more e85 that others'. I would venture to guess it is not the car, but the e85 the car is consuming.

All E85 pumps are different, as the ration can vary as much as 15% in Ethanol to Gas. So while one person can run 40% on their car, it may be because the other person who can only run 30% is actually running more Ethanol then they think since the E85 pump gas could be anywhere from E70 to E85.

The 15% discrepancy between cars can easily be the discrepency in Ethanol content at the pump. Just a thought...
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      03-21-2013, 10:48 AM   #22
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my question is, all the dynos on e85 show a 50/50 mix of 93/e85 adding 40+whp that sounds like a huge gain for just mixing essentially 93/96 for a mix of 94.5 so a 150 point increase is adding that much power? where on the other hand 105 mixed with 93 gives us 99 total and would see much more fit to the power increases were seeing, i just cant believe rasing the car that little of octane would make that much more power and a whole new animal, granted like n54 door said every pump is different and we have to account in my opinion for the 10% ethanol in our premium gas.
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