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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > M3 V8s - no torque!



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      03-10-2013, 12:25 AM   #45
Andrewe92
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n54 has come a long way and it's just a blast, great for the street. again tho m3 better for track in every way possible
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      03-10-2013, 10:31 AM   #46
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n54 has come a long way and it's just a blast, great for the street. again tho m3 better for track in every way possible
Agreed, and never claimed any different. Now if we can just work on those drivers!
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      03-10-2013, 10:50 AM   #47
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New lighter M3 turbo sedan is my next upgrade goal! (although the f30 328i loaners ive had feel very plastic like doors, interior and window up/down, just not very bmw like) Start this off by saying I am all about good value so this was my thought process for my last couple cars...

When I was looking at the options 3yrs ago it was V8 $40k vs N54 $26k 3yrs of warr+maint left + $300 jb4 + $40 intake ran 109mph trap and turbo sounds are just intoxicating!

I havent in 3yrs ever made it to a road course, and id hate the thought of damaging a $40k+M3.

I chose 09 CTSV $42k still under warranty 650hp trap 121mph on 91 oct and weighed out ....
Supercharged M3 Project $40k for the sedan + $15k for ESS kit + installation + very expensive exhaust systems. Thats a $60k project easy.
To sum up the CTSV ownership "all those horses and no where to run"

450hp turbo M3 lighter weight just makes so much sense, + a tune say +50-100hp/tq cant wait! Ive been watching google alerts for over a year now.
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      03-10-2013, 08:46 PM   #48
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Where is bruce on this thread! Or swamp. Ill leave it for them to do their ceremonial explanation of thrust and wheel torque lol. Bottom line is when you are WOT in the m3 in the appropriate gear, you never see below 6k so if you are under 6k you have not selected the right gear.

ie for a highway pull the m3 at 75 mph in 3rd would be 5800 and get full use of its 6k-8400k powerband. If the M3 started in 4th it would be a lot slower. Whereas the 335 can be in a higher gear without a big sacrifice in pull or has more wiggle room.

When in the right gear which is usually quite a low gear compared to a turbo car, the torque output at the wheels is higher than a moderate-high tuned n54. High tuned FOB tuned n54's than exceed. But a FOB, catless and tuned m3 in the right gear goes neck to neck with a high fob 335 (once 335 does meth on top of it than it usually can take it)

So Factory m3 plus 2k worth of mods (catless, drop in and tune) and you run with a highly FOB 335. You also get all of the other m3 benefits of looks, suspension and sound of V8.

The reason low end torque does not matter on this car is because if you drive it in the proper gear for acceleration, the tach never sees low or mid rpms. Its literally impossible since the tach does not drop below about 6k on wot pulls when each successive gear shifts.

Only from a dig is there a slight disatvantage but if you use launch control that is not true since it drops the clutch at 5k and well on its way to its powerband and again bypasses all the low-med range where power lacks
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      03-10-2013, 09:01 PM   #49
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^^^^^^^^^

That's all well and good, but the bottom line is that unless you are driving the car on the boil all the time, the lack of tq compared to cars like the 335 is very apparent. I owned one, I would know. And seriously, who does or wants to drive on the street like that all the time?

At lower rpms, the m3 does not make a lot of torque, and overall relative to its weight makes low torque.

Some don't mind this, others like myself do. That's why I have a 1m, m3 suspension just lighter and a much more torquey engine.

The chassis of the m3 is fantastic however.
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      03-10-2013, 10:23 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Where is bruce on this thread! Or swamp. Ill leave it for them to do their ceremonial explanation of thrust and wheel torque lol. Bottom line is when you are WOT in the m3 in the appropriate gear, you never see below 6k so if you are under 6k you have not selected the right gear.

ie for a highway pull the m3 at 75 mph in 3rd would be 5800 and get full use of its 6k-8400k powerband. If the M3 started in 4th it would be a lot slower. Whereas the 335 can be in a higher gear without a big sacrifice in pull or has more wiggle room.

When in the right gear which is usually quite a low gear compared to a turbo car, the torque output at the wheels is higher than a moderate-high tuned n54. High tuned FOB tuned n54's than exceed. But a FOB, catless and tuned m3 in the right gear goes neck to neck with a high fob 335 (once 335 does meth on top of it than it usually can take it)

So Factory m3 plus 2k worth of mods (catless, drop in and tune) and you run with a highly FOB 335. You also get all of the other m3 benefits of looks, suspension and sound of V8.

The reason low end torque does not matter on this car is because if you drive it in the proper gear for acceleration, the tach never sees low or mid rpms. Its literally impossible since the tach does not drop below about 6k on wot pulls when each successive gear shifts.

Only from a dig is there a slight disatvantage but if you use launch control that is not true since it drops the clutch at 5k and well on its way to its powerband and again bypasses all the low-med range where power lacks
Some M3 dynos from the M3 forum - where is the torque? BMW only claims 295ftlb @ 3900rpm & that's at the crank, knock off 15% to 250ftlbs for a chassis dyno & you are in the ballpark for the dyno runs.

The sticky dyno postings for the 335i & 335is are around 300ftlbs or better also according to BMW the 335 torque is all in by 1800rpm.
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      03-10-2013, 10:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by shortseller View Post
WHAT !! -Just kidding.

Not mad, just didn't appreciate the road manners. And it seems to happen more than not when I come to meet M3s on the road. I guess it's something about my blk e92 w/ staggered 19s that makes them curious. Most of the time I don't even bother as I like BMWs and never enjoy the road play against a fellow bimmerhead, I would rather wave and acknowledge a brethren hobbyist and be on my way. I tend to save my ass kicking mode for Audi owners, Mustangs, Asian stuff, etc.
Lol he said Asian stuff. Like IsFs, GTRs, evos and stis right? Mustangs? Good luck with the 5.0 fbo as well. And audis...well no one cares about them.
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      03-11-2013, 12:14 AM   #52
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Engine torque is meaningless. I was talking about wheel torque which is proportional to horsepower.

And the arguement that if you are not stepping on the gas WOT all the time than the 335 is quicker? If I want to drive relaxed than I am not looking for speed and thus the 295 foot pounds at 3k rpms is more than enough to cruise. If I want performance, fun or passing I go WOT and put in the right gear which keeps you above 6k all the time and in the big powerband.

To each his own, but this misconception of how torque and hp relate to actual thrust and car acceleration is just ridiculous how widespread the misunderstanding and misuse of the information.

Once again calculate the area under the HP curve and compare 2 cars. That tells you which is the faster car given a similar weight. Engine torque gives one small piece to a puzzle and does not account for RPMS and Gearing. HP on the other hand does a better representation of accounting for atleast the RPM's role in power production which is what ultimately drives the wheels and creates torque At the wheel, not the engine

250 foot pounds at 7-8400 rpms with more gear mulpiplication beats the pants of 350 foot pounds at 5 or 6k (335 tuned) with taller gears and less multpilication. This is represented by HP which will be significantly more in the M3.
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      03-11-2013, 12:59 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Engine torque is meaningless. I was talking about wheel torque which is proportional to horsepower.

And the arguement that if you are not stepping on the gas WOT all the time than the 335 is quicker? If I want to drive relaxed than I am not looking for speed and thus the 295 foot pounds at 3k rpms is more than enough to cruise. If I want performance, fun or passing I go WOT and put in the right gear which keeps you above 6k all the time and in the big powerband.

To each his own, but this misconception of how torque and hp relate to actual thrust and car acceleration is just ridiculous how widespread the misunderstanding and misuse of the information.

Once again calculate the area under the HP curve and compare 2 cars. That tells you which is the faster car given a similar weight. Engine torque gives one small piece to a puzzle and does not account for RPMS and Gearing. HP on the other hand does a better representation of accounting for atleast the RPM's role in power production which is what ultimately drives the wheels and creates torque At the wheel, not the engine

250 foot pounds at 7-8400 rpms with more gear mulpiplication beats the pants of 350 foot pounds at 5 or 6k (335 tuned) with taller gears and less multpilication. This is represented by HP which will be significantly more in the M3.
Nice theory, explain this from a few weekends back? The top end with the low RPM crappy gear multiplication N54 against the high RPM excellent gear multiplication ESS supercharged M3 is very interesting.

http://www.esstuning.com/products/E9...er-System.html

BTW I am 7-0 against stock or close to stock M3's at Rockingham & Mexico with a light tune + FMIC 375whp/414ftlbs for about 1K all in.
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      03-11-2013, 01:44 AM   #54
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The M3 engine is not bad, its more fun than the N54. The N54 has more usable power as some forum members already said. I've driven an m3 myself and you just need to ring its neck a bit to get the power out, both equally great in their own way.
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      03-11-2013, 02:20 AM   #55
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I don't get it. Engine torque is related to bore and stroke.
Small V8 engines that rev high just don't make lots of torque.
You can get horsepower by spinning it faster as long as you can get air and fuel into the engine.

The M3 V8 is a high revving engine.
Put a turbo on just about anything and you get better low end torque.
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      03-11-2013, 02:42 AM   #56
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I don't get it. Engine torque is related to bore and stroke.
Small V8 engines that rev high just don't make lots of torque.
You can get horsepower by spinning it faster as long as you can get air and fuel into the engine.

The M3 V8 is a high revving engine.
Put a turbo on just about anything and you get better low end torque.
Or a supercharger =)
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      03-11-2013, 07:35 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Engine torque is meaningless. I was talking about wheel torque which is proportional to horsepower.

250 foot pounds at 7-8400 rpms with more gear mulpiplication beats the pants of 350 foot pounds at 5 or 6k (335 tuned) with taller gears and less multpilication. This is represented by HP which will be significantly more in the M3.
You can generate all the explanations / excuses you want. The fact is that at lower rpms that are more commonly used on the street, unless you want to redline the car driving on 45 mph roads, the m3 has little torque. In fact, there are many professional car revirws that mention the exact same thing. I owned one for a year, and felt the exact same way. My current car has significantly more torque at the rpms I use and subsequently pulls much harder in the low end and midrange.

Finally, read your last comment. 7000-8400 rpms? No one is talking about those rpms. We are talking about street rpms, like in first or second gear at 1500-3000 rpm. At those rpm, the m3 power is not strong relative to a stock much less tuned n54 car.
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      03-11-2013, 08:22 AM   #58
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Agree that's the main reason I bought the 335is to pass time till the M4 turbo coupe comes out.
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      03-11-2013, 09:15 AM   #59
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^so it's going to be an inline 6 turbo producing 450hp. Will it be a single twin scroll N55 version or an N54 with its two little turbos? I look forward to its arrival as well. With a tune it will be a monster on the street, strip & track so we can put that debate to a final rest.
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      03-11-2013, 10:11 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Might add, right now the:

M3 is better on the track
N54 is better on the street
N54 is better at the drag strip
N54 is better at the airport
N54 Better at the airport???

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      03-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #61
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N54 Better at the airport???

Nice run for the M! They are beasts with a charger!
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      03-11-2013, 11:10 AM   #62
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N54 Better at the airport???
Sure N54 2 for 2 over the M3 with supercharger. M3 did well on the day. but the N54 did better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=qJ_sMbPFsxQ

The camera car is the supercharged M3 was driven by Longboarder his record for the day was very good except for the two losses to Terry's 135.

GTR L
C63 AMG W
911/996TW
GTR W
M3 SC W
Mustang SC T
335 W
335 W
M5 W
135 L X2
335 W
Mustang Cobra SC L
C63 AMG W
Lambo L
R8 V10 W
C63 SC L
STi TC W

The 135 for the day went undefeated 7-0

Longboarder's supercharged M3 -- Won by 2 cars from 50mph and 1 from 40mph.
SRanch335 RB turbo 335 -- Won by 2 cars+, and almost got wiped out by a plane on the return road!
Another supercharged E92 M3 -- Won by 2 cars
Z06 Vette -- Won by 1-2 cars
Jon's 335 -- Won by several cars
Eric's C63 -- Won by several cars

SRanch's 335 took out the Lambo that beat the M3.


335 JB4 vs Ferrari 458 Italia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=oDIYPW0yJ1Y

Over to you
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      03-11-2013, 04:33 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Sure N54 2 for 2 over the M3 with supercharger. M3 did well on the day. but the N54 did better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=qJ_sMbPFsxQ

The camera car is the supercharged M3 was driven by Longboarder his record for the day was very good except for the two losses to Terry's 135.

GTR L
C63 AMG W
911/996TW
GTR W
M3 SC W
Mustang SC T
335 W
335 W
M5 W
135 L X2
335 W
Mustang Cobra SC L
C63 AMG W
Lambo L
R8 V10 W
C63 SC L
STi TC W

The 135 for the day went undefeated 7-0

Longboarder's supercharged M3 -- Won by 2 cars from 50mph and 1 from 40mph.
SRanch335 RB turbo 335 -- Won by 2 cars+, and almost got wiped out by a plane on the return road!
Another supercharged E92 M3 -- Won by 2 cars
Z06 Vette -- Won by 1-2 cars
Jon's 335 -- Won by several cars
Eric's C63 -- Won by several cars

SRanch's 335 took out the Lambo that beat the M3.


335 JB4 vs Ferrari 458 Italia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=oDIYPW0yJ1Y

Over to you
IMO this is the result of the extreme obesity of the E92 M3, more so than a result of the short commings of the S65. The M3 is what about 200 pounds more than the 335 and 500 more than a 1 series coupe? The E92 should not have weighed a pound more than the E46, IMO.

The m3 is a fantastic choice if someone wants a car with panache that also offers excellent performance, with a warranty. When you modify things, all the usuall metrics and measurements go out the window.
Those N54s were really heavily modified but, one of the VT3 guys could jump in here with 650+whp on race gas a meth injection and wipe all the custom TT n54s and exotics out easily. The guy in Florida running around with that 650whp ST N54 could come along and may well do the same to the M3. Then, the next guy with money will come along with an M3 that has even more boost and even more meth injection and even wider rear fenders and kill the ST N54. The take away is that is's nearly impossible to compare midified cars, because there is no easy way to determine parity across different platforms. What is to say that a VT-575 is "equivelant" to a FBO N54 with stock turbos? Nothing. They don't cost the same, they don't have the same engines, they don't have the same induction systems, they don't have the same chassis's, etc.


When it comes to comparing modified cars, comparisons become largely specious arguements because money can transform cars into characturies of themselves. Suffice it to say that anyone with deep pockets can turn either an N54 or an S65 into incredible drag or track machines.


In my opinion, the choice to buy a one E92 (or E90) over another is a largely emotional choice. Arguing technical points for the purpose of being correct is largely useless and, always ends up combative. Each car is different and, each should just by what suits him or her better.


Having said that, I want a supercharged M3 way more than I want even a custom turbo N54. Drag races and technical arguements are meaningless. The whole of the M3 is just a different and, IMO, much more pleasing machine than my 335i, even with the high RPM bias and high weight.
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      03-11-2013, 05:30 PM   #64
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^ agreed wholeheartedly.
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      03-11-2013, 06:13 PM   #65
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Cool thread I didn't know my vids were so famous I did most of those runs with my windows down and I should have known better but no excuses, Terry pulled me pretty hard.

For the April Shift-Sector event I'm swapping my 5.5psi pulley for a 8psi pulley this week and should pick up at least 50 RWHP I'll need it to keep up with Prem and Steve (Vishnu/FFTEC single turbos) as I hear Steve just did a 6.8 second 60-130.

Funny that I made a thread about this very subject when I had a tuned/meth 335 when I first test drove an M3. I was disappointed with this lack of torque...but ended up coming full circle: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=621842

At these power levels, the lack of torque is actually a benefit as my car now has traction on the initial hit during the roll racing events. The others have to play catch up.

I loved my 335 but at the track, the M3 is incredible. There's nothing like flying around corners full WOT at 8,600 RPM.
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      03-11-2013, 07:40 PM   #66
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Quote:
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IMO this is the result of the extreme obesity of the E92 M3, more so than a result of the short commings of the S65. The M3 is what about 200 pounds more than the 335 and 500 more than a 1 series coupe?.
No point in going any further according to BMW the M3 weighs 122lbs more then a 335 & 265lbs more then a 135 or about half the guess. The rest of the post is "what if" not what happened.

Next time its an all new game so "what if" Vishnu gets his ST's on track.

Thing is all these cars, 135/328/335/M3, are modifications on the same basic hull. What some people seem to be unhappy about in some specific competitive events the low priced spread is very effective.

For example RB turbos for $2699 a set vs $7995 for a VT1-550 while the VT2-650 runs 13,995 & the VT3 looks like it might be a complete engine rebuild with low compression pistons etc.

Bottom line is Longboarder had a very good day & on that specific day Terry had a better one. Next time out it could easily be reversed that’s competition. What you are not dealing with is an N54 with FBO’s, RB’s & Meth is a very fast car & competitive with a lot of sacred cows. Its not only fast but according to the definition provided to me on the site a bolt on car is not heavily not heavily modified.
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