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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vishnu ST and Vargas TT BBQ Shootout



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      03-31-2013, 02:48 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainInsano View Post
I know you are trying to poke Shiv for a response, but there's a 93oct no meth dyno of FBISs car from the first post in this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=741694



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Thank you, I appreciate that!
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      03-31-2013, 02:52 PM   #112
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Haha it still runs like a beast. I run 1700F all day at Laguna anyways
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      03-31-2013, 02:59 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by CaptainInsano View Post
I know you are trying to poke Shiv for a response, but here's a 93oct no meth dyno of FBISs car from the first post in this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=741694



Have a good one.
So just to revist and be perfectly clear, on 93 not 91 the ST kit made 22 WHP less and 93 WTQ less then we did. Shiv is claiming they made a lot more but didn't want to post the numbers or graphs, because of. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
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      03-31-2013, 03:02 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
So just to revist and be perfectly clear, on 93 not 91 the ST kit made 22 WHP less and 93 WTQ less then we did. Shiv is claiming they made a lot more but didn't want to post the numbers or graphs, because of. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
Yes Tony, you are missing somethings. Please re-read the last few posts.
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      03-31-2013, 03:03 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
So just to revist and be perfectly clear, on 93 not 91 the ST kit made 22 WHP less and 93 WTQ less then we did. Shiv is claiming they made a lot more but didn't want to post the numbers or graphs, because of. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
This is a major part of why I asked. Less power was made with higher octane going with Vishnu's kit. I don't understand why your (Stage 3) kit would be put on blast with all the speculation regarding EGT's, when I have never seen any data from Shiv regarding probes in his manifolds. We have had a year to see them and nothing yet, hence my question. Hopefully he has some results, but I have never seen EGT probes in his manifolds from any of the pictures posted, from either his prototype or final kits. This worries me on how the tuning could be done without such vital information.

I appreciate that you (Tony) are going to be monitoring EGT's with your prototype kit. It really shows who is taking the time to have their hardware properly tuned.
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      03-31-2013, 03:06 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Yes Tony, you are missing somethings. Please re-read the last few posts.
I read all the posts. No pretty sure I am not, there is the graph, there are the numbers. Seems pretty Straight forward, until you start your magic wand waving. When you have the "other" numbers along with a video. Please post them up so we can all see, or we can wait and video us both running on the dyno back to back. Thank you, going back to Easter now. Cheers..
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      03-31-2013, 03:18 PM   #117
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Things are a lot less dramatic when people take the time to read AND understand what is being said. Forming an opinion about someone and then (mis)interpreting their words to reinforce said opinion is always going to result in bickering. And those who can't talk tech, like to bicker I suppose.

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      03-31-2013, 03:23 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Things are a lot less dramatic when people take the time to read AND understand what is being said. Forming an opinion about someone and then (mis)interpreting their words to reinforce said opinion is always going to result in bickering. And those who can't talk tech, like to bicker I suppose.

Shiv
Shiv, I'm not sure who you are adressing here, but I asked a few questions. Do you care to answer them? If you have no EGT data after the year your kit has been out in it's final stage, feel free to install EGT probes whenever and make a new thread with what you found. I'd love to see it.

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      03-31-2013, 03:32 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by E90Company View Post
Shiv, I'm not sure who you are adressing here, but I asked a few questions. Do you care to answer them?
You asked if I had EGT data. I answered with EGT data (although not directly to you.... see post #108)

If I have EGT data, there was obviously an EGT probe installed (pre-turbine in manifold).

Anything else you'd like to know?
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      03-31-2013, 03:36 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by E90Company View Post
Shiv, I'm not sure who you are adressing here, but I asked a few questions. Do you care to answer them? If you have no EGT data after the year your kit has been out in it's final stage, feel free to install EGT probes whenever and make a new thread with what you found. I'd love to see it.
Ah a ninja edit. Again, please read the posts I've made in this thread. It will make your Sunday a lot more peaceful. It seems that you guys on the other forum like to rally each other up to the point where you can't even absorb any external info. This isn't a pep rally. This is a technical discussion board. If you use it as such, you will learn more than by just hating on others.
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      03-31-2013, 03:42 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
You asked if I had EGT data. I answered with EGT data (although not directly to you.... see post #108)

If I have EGT data, there was obviously an EGT probe installed (pre-turbine in manifold).

Anything else you'd like to know?
Yes sir. I'm not sure if you read my post correctly the first time or not, but I'm not seeing any data or proof regarding this. No pictures of the EGT probes, no hard data, logs, charts, nothing. It's just way more believable when you have this info, rather than just spitting out a number. I'm not sure why it has to be so hush hush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Ah a ninja edit. Again, please read the posts I've made in this thread. It will make your Sunday a lot more peaceful. It seems that you guys on the other forum like to rally each other up to the point where you can't even absorb any external info. This isn't a pep rally. This is a technical discussion board. If you use it as such, you will learn more than by just hating on others.
Not a ninja edit. The edit was done at 4:28 with my original post being at 4:23. According to your profile you kept refreshing the page as well. I just thought I'd add that information instead of making a new post.

Sir, i'm just trying to see data and factual information about EGT's on your kit, that is all. I'm just not sure why it is so difficult to see this from you, but it's very easy to speculate about another vendor's EGT's. This is a technical discussion board after all, where data should be shared.

Edit: LOL at the pic!
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      03-31-2013, 03:45 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
I lost track, are you asking Tony for EGT data or Shiv?
Last time I checked Shiv includes datalogs to back up every dyno run he's posted. There is no data on the Vargas kits.
Asking Shiv he has had over a year to do this. Tony will be running EGT sensors when he steps up the power & already had experience using them.

Shiv on the other hand has not give anyone a basic yes or no about using the sensors, if yes where are they located & what the readings were.

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      03-31-2013, 03:54 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBeck View Post
The reasons are typically that they are 1) not noticed or 2) its just not worth the time. It becomes more and more easy to just avoid forum drama unless you see obvious competitive deception, attacks, or the like that needs to be addressed. Even that is getting harder and harder to address because it seems most have their mind made up before even reading or understanding anything. They automatically discard everything as fear mongering sales tactics. The fact is that much of us have so much to learn, and those willing to enlighten us are chastised and counter attacked for sharing anything.
AGREE! and the saucy banter makes me want to keep at it.
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      03-31-2013, 04:05 PM   #124
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I've made my point in this thread. Happy Easter everyone. Be safe
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      03-31-2013, 04:08 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Asking Shiv he has had over a year to do this. Tony will be running EGT sensors when he steps up the power & already had experience using them.

Shiv on the other hand has not give anyone a basic yes or no about using the sensors, if yes where are they located & what the readings were.
Are you reading my posts? I already said we had an EGT probe installed pre-turbine in the exhaust manifold. I already posted results in this thread. FYI, I have also had an Innovate external wideband, a Continental ethanol content sensor, a Magnehelic differential pressure sensor, and an AEM external boost gauge installed. All at the same time too. I don't know why this should come as a surprise to you or anyone else. These are basic tuning tools that any developer would use. Especially when doing something that hasn't been done before. As for pics, I probably have them somewhere. But it's not one of the things that I thought I would ever need to prove to an internet forum

I'm not running for president here. Just a tuner.
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      03-31-2013, 04:56 PM   #126
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I never really post here. I feel you guys are kinda leading everyone here to incorrect conclusions with the MBT vs Timing vs Boost vs EGT stuff imo.

Granted, Shiv is absolutely right, but there is more to the story than he is going into (as usual imo). I'll try to be brief and simple:

Ideally you have timing for MBT with an octane that can support it. This will produce the lowest EGT for whatever combination you are running, and the highest thermal efficiency as the expanding gas will be best utilized to push the piston down.

Decrease timing, and the combustion happens later, thus the gas expansion is less efficient, and EGT's go up.... BUT, this isn't necessarily bad for the engine as lots of the high EGT measured is combustion occurring in the manifold itself. Read- helping spool a turbo (or premature wear I guess).

Increase timing further from MBT, and the combustion happens earlier. Two things can happen here--- DETONATION, because the increasing pressure while the piston is still traveling up causes other pockets of aircharge to ignite. You'll actually see EGT go DOWN because the piston heads are absorbing lots of this heat (not good). Or, OVERADVANCE, which will not increase power due to a low thermal efficiency (not catching the expanding gas peak pressure when the piston is ready for it), thus will also increase EGT due to a more complete burn outside of the thermal efficiency zone, and straining the engine cooling system more.

In essence, hitting MBT timing helps maximize thermal efficiency, and lower EGT's. Running less advance generates heat, but much of this is "afterburn" so to speak in the exhaust. Not a huge deal. Running too much advance can cause detonation, lowering EGT but for bad reasons, or overadvance, lowering thermal efficiency and increasing EGT and thermal stress inside the cylinder.

You can lower the effects of high EGT on the cooling system and reduce octane effects by increasing the engine VE with bigger turbos, better manifolds, headwork, intercoolers, richer AFR's, E85, water injection, etc.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a gasoline engine is a heat engine. Nothing more, nothing less. You can choose to generate and deal with this heat in a variety of fashions, and when/where this heat is generated can also be controlled. EGT numbers are NOT the end all/be all, there are other things that should be taken into considerations.

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      03-31-2013, 05:09 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Are you reading my posts? I already said we had an EGT probe installed pre-turbine in the exhaust manifold. I already posted results in this thread. FYI, I have also had an Innovate external wideband, a Continental ethanol content sensor, a Magnehelic differential pressure sensor, and an AEM external boost gauge installed. All at the same time too. I don't know why this should come as a surprise to you or anyone else. These are basic tuning tools that any developer would use. Especially when doing something that hasn't been done before. As for pics, I probably have them somewhere. But it's not one of the things that I thought I would ever need to prove to an internet forum

I'm not running for president here. Just a tuner.
Extremely happy & relieved to hear that you will not now or in the future run for president.

Show & Tell is always better than just Tell when things get interesting between vendors. I think these competing claims threads need some hard visual support of a specific position before they are accepted as fact. Others may feel differently.
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      03-31-2013, 05:27 PM   #128
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V8bait,
First, i'd like to thank you for contributing to a technical discussion. It's great and it benefits everyone reading. Comments below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8bait View Post
I never really post here. I feel you guys are kinda leading everyone here to incorrect conclusions with the MBT vs Timing vs Boost vs EGT stuff imo.

Granted, Shiv is absolutely right, but there is more to the story than he is going into (as usual imo). I'll try to be brief and simple:

Ideally you have timing for MBT with an octane that can support it. This will produce the lowest EGT for whatever combination you are running, and the highest thermal efficiency as the expanding gas will be best utilized to push the piston down.

Decrease timing, and the combustion happens later, thus the gas expansion is less efficient, and EGT's go up.... BUT, this isn't necessarily bad for the engine as lots of the high EGT measured is combustion occurring in the manifold itself. Read- helping spool a turbo (or premature wear I guess).
Decreasing ignition advance timing tends also reduces peak cylinder pressure which will introduce less load on the piston/rod/crank. The tradeoff for that, of course, higher post-combustion temp. In the framework we are discussing (high load, turbo already spooled at full boost), there isn't any need to retard timing to help turbo spool. Also, for ignition retard induced spool-up benefits to exist, spark timing has to be *excessively* retarded (ie, firing long after TDC/ 35-40 deg ATDC) to the point were you are getting little engine torque and very high pressure/temps in the exhaust manifold. This is often taken to an extreme in rally cars by also routing air directly into the exhaust manifold during throttle closures so that the antilag fuel enrichment combusts ONLY in the manifold. This is very hard on turbo and manifolds so it isn't really applicable to this discussion.


Quote:
Increase timing further from MBT, and the combustion happens earlier. Two things can happen here--- DETONATION, because the increasing pressure while the piston is still traveling up causes other pockets of aircharge to ignite. You'll actually see EGT go DOWN because the piston heads are absorbing lots of this heat (not good). Or, OVERADVANCE, which will not increase power due to a low thermal efficiency (not catching the expanding gas peak pressure when the piston is ready for it), thus will also increase EGT due to a more complete burn outside of the thermal efficiency zone, and straining the engine cooling system more.
Completely agree.

Quote:
In essence, hitting MBT timing helps maximize thermal efficiency, and lower EGT's. Running less advance generates heat, but much of this is "afterburn" so to speak in the exhaust. Not a huge deal. Running too much advance can cause detonation, lowering EGT but for bad reasons, or overadvance, lowering thermal efficiency and increasing EGT and thermal stress inside the cylinder.

You can lower the effects of high EGT on the cooling system and reduce octane effects by increasing the engine VE with bigger turbos, better manifolds, headwork, intercoolers, richer AFR's, E85, water injection, etc.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a gasoline engine is a heat engine. Nothing more, nothing less. You can choose to generate and deal with this heat in a variety of fashions, and when/where this heat is generated can also be controlled. EGT numbers are NOT the end all/be all, there are other things that should be taken into considerations.
As far as engine/turbo hardware is concerned, it only sees temp and pressure. Both can be measured with basic devices. In the exhaust stroke, the turbo/exhaust valve/manifold/etc,. sees both. The larger the turbo, the less exhaust (back) pressure. So that is good. However, here is the interesting bit that most people tend to forget, the bigger the turbo, the greater the VE of the engine. Which means the more air molecules in the cylinder. And this also means the more fuel in the cyliner as well (constant A/F ratio). And the more air/fuel, the more combustion energy and more nominal heat released/wasted. So one can argue that engines fitted with larger turbo prove to the more of a challenge when it comes to thermal management (EGT control) because this is more combustion energy being produced.

Just my 2c,
Shiv
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      03-31-2013, 06:10 PM   #129
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Its nice to notice that some vendors such as Shiv and Rob understand both the tuning and hardware and don't just try to sell parts. Tuners in the know agree on them as well.

Haters who can't contribute should go back to their own drama forum.
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      03-31-2013, 06:34 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Never claimed to be a tuner, we build hardware if you couldn't tell. Ps, your boy shiv doesn't build turbo kits, he has the guys at FFTEC doing that. Nor is Rob a tuner, nor claims to be, looks like again your points are meaningless and completely moot. You have perfected the pointless post. Congrats. Yes we just sell parts, the good part is, they work! Just like the FFTEC kit works. Different approach, different tuning, always going to be much debated, the TT vs ST debate is many years old and will never go away. Again thanks for making a post that makes no sense, we all appreciate it
Mr. Vargas may not understand that one doesnt need to be a tuner to understand engine theory. This basic knowledge should be a necessity regardless of if you are a tuner, a hardware builder or an enthusiast.

And Mr. Vargas, you may want to learn how to make what you believe to be a point without insulting someone. Calling me his "boy" or telling him his post makes no sense reveals more about yourself than anything else.

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      03-31-2013, 06:42 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Mr. Vargas may not understand that one doesnt need to be a tuner to understand engine theory. This basic knowledge should be a necessity regardless of if you are a tuner, a hardware builder or an enthusiast.

And Mr. Vargas, you may want to learn how to make what you believe to be a point without insulting someone. Calling me his "boy" or telling him his post makes no sense reveals more about yourself than anything else.
Yes, I do not understand engine theory you got me. Actually unlike you, I do not need to try to throw my knowledge and big brain at people to try to act smart. I just let me products speak for themselves, which I did and you popped right out of hiding, this is now the 3rd thread with my name in the title directly compared to you. I have never made one with your name in it, nor would I. I promote my products with numbers and honestly. You then try to tell people why yours are better, with spinning and trying to shove engine theory down their throats to try to explain we we made more horse power on lower octane fuel using just a DME flash and will continue to do so. To address your last part, if someone posts something ignorant to try to insult me, I will do the same back plain as day. I will not hide behind backhanded compliments, and smoke and mirrors as yourself. You made the offer for the BBQ and dyno shoot out. But now you won't even acknowledge it. You just try to down play why we are making more power then you our first time on the dyno, again the Shiv spin. I will be at shift sector next week and will enjoy a friendly convo with you and hopefully we can plan the dyno day. Despite your less than ideal ways of trying to sell products I do respect you for pushing the platform. Looking forward to a good ST showing next weekend.
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      03-31-2013, 06:43 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
As far as engine/turbo hardware is concerned, it only sees temp and pressure. Both can be measured with basic devices. In the exhaust stroke, the turbo/exhaust valve/manifold/etc,. sees both. The larger the turbo, the less exhaust (back) pressure. So that is good. However, here is the interesting bit that most people tend to forget, the bigger the turbo, the greater the VE of the engine. Which means the more air molecules in the cylinder. And this also means the more fuel in the cyliner as well (constant A/F ratio). And the more air/fuel, the more combustion energy and more nominal heat released/wasted. So one can argue that engines fitted with larger turbo prove to the more of a challenge when it comes to thermal management (EGT control) because this is more combustion energy being produced.

Just my 2c,
Shiv
Yes, with increased VE, no matter how you accomplish it, you get more air/fuel into the cylinder. But this is a twofold event you are talking about with a larger turbo here in relation to power and heat. Part of the reason you are getting more air/fuel into the engine, is because you are removing more spent gas (and heat) from the engine (you know this very well from your singles great performance on pump even with the same boost/IAT's, due to increased exhaust flow/scavenging). Less volume taken up by old, used gas, more taken up by fresh, cool gas. In fact, from this standpoint alone you can also argue that thermal management (such as octane requirements and water injection) is easier on high VE engines, because spent gas really only serves the purpose of heating up the incoming air, which forces you to reduce timing to prevent knock, and thus increases EGT due to deviating from MBT.

I see what you are saying here though. More air/fuel in a cylinder gives you more potential energy during the combustion event, and this energy must be dealt with somehow. You've made this point throughout the thread and it's critical no doubt. Just remember, that the total (in essence) EGT is a sum of heat leftover from the previous combustion event (decreases with higher VE) + wasted heat from current combustion event (which increases with VE), and that the ladder form is the least destructive to the engine when due to retarded timing. Now if you want to look at it from a turbo life expectancy well there's really no argument there (heat and pressure as you say), but this is looking at safe power for the engine IIRC.

EGT is a number. How it's generated, and thus the analysis, is key for engine life. Some things, like turbo's, O2's, etc really only care about the number, but not everything is about the turbo. On your ST, I would presume EGT plays a much larger role due to the O2 placement and closed loop nature of things. But for this build, EGT is more just a stress for the turbines in this regard.

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