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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > Audio Table of Contents: Upgrading? Start HERE!



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      04-13-2013, 06:37 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
The MS-8 has been a huge disappointment for us, we don't sell it actively any longer, we have had too many fail, we have had too many Bluetooth echo problems. We no longer use DSP in our Level One, Two, or Three systems other than in base Stereo situations, and in those systems we use other means of signal correction.
I'm glad that you've written that, since on Monday I was going to pull the trigger on an MS-8. My aim is to improve SQ, not to add extra headaches, so for now I'll put it on hold.

With that being said, you've just ruined countless hours of searching for answers and brought up a few more questions

What to do in a Logic 7 system, then? The DA2 seems like the second best option to HU recoding for those who want to delete their amp (thanks Technic!). Initially my plan was to do HU > DA2 > MS-8 > (2) amps. If I remove the MS-8 from that plan, I'm understanding from your post that I could also do HU > DA2 > (2) amps. But wouldn't I be missing a lot by not having a DSP (granted the DA2 allows you to keep an EQ, but I understand it's limited, and as far as I've read it doesn't do all the other nice things you've listed)?

If so, which DSP(s) would you guys advise to use in this particular setup in place of the MS-8?

As you can see my knowledge on car audio is still relatively limited, so I was actually looking forward to the ease of use of the MS-8 (autotune...).

On another topic, you're doing an excellent job kaigoss, thanks a lot. The table is very clear, this is exactly what I would have needed a couple of weeks ago. There are tons of discussions/information scattered everywhere, it's extremely hard to know which steps to follow unless you already know what you're doing. So this is very helpful.
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      04-13-2013, 07:16 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicax View Post
I'm glad that you've written that, since on Monday I was going to pull the trigger on an MS-8. My aim is to improve SQ, not to add extra headaches, so for now I'll put it on hold.

With that being said, you've just ruined countless hours of searching for answers and brought up a few more questions

What to do in a Logic 7 system, then? The DA2 seems like the second best option to HU recoding for those who want to delete their amp (thanks Technic!). Initially my plan was to do HU > DA2 > MS-8 > (2) amps. If I remove the MS-8 from that plan, I'm understanding from your post that I could also do HU > DA2 > (2) amps. But wouldn't I be missing a lot by not having a DSP (granted the DA2 allows you to keep an EQ, but I understand it's limited, and as far as I've read it doesn't do all the other nice things you've listed)?

If so, which DSP(s) would you guys advise to use in this particular setup in place of the MS-8?

As you can see my knowledge on car audio is still relatively limited, so I was actually looking forward to the ease of use of the MS-8 (autotune...).

On another topic, you're doing an excellent job kaigoss, thanks a lot. The table is very clear, this is exactly what I would have needed a couple of weeks ago. There are tons of discussions/information scattered everywhere, it's extremely hard to know which steps to follow unless you already know what you're doing. So this is very helpful.
If I owned an audio shop, I would NEVER sell the MS-8. Like VP said, too many problems (problems cost money). However, in my personal car I would definitely have an MS-8.

You have to weigh the pros vs. the cons. To me, the pros FAR outweigh the cons, and mind you, I am on my third unit and when I get a phone call, I use the iPhone's speaker instead of BT. Would I install another one if this one broke and I had to pay for it? - You betcha!
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      04-13-2013, 07:46 PM   #69
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The MS-8 proved that there is a good market for a combo self-tuning DSP/amp if you advertised it well. Something that the Zapco DC series could not even dream of.

It also proved that development and implementation are two different animals altogether. This sucker was built poorly and thus most of the problems are pure hardware defects -like the display jack being broken by just looking at it. A more robust MS-8, with a slight power output bump may fix 99% of the problems.

The Bluetooth echo will not go away unless they change the unit name completely -by removing the 8ms DSP delay.
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      04-14-2013, 01:27 AM   #70
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What about this workaround from JBL?

Of course it's still unacceptable that a product advertised as providing OEM integration has to really on something like that to get rid of the BT echo, but it could be a solution to some people (those that don't use the BT often or those that have an insane amount of patience ).

It's really a shame, since a possible alternative to the DA2 + MS-8 would be the DA1 + Audison BitOne (it's actually even slightly cheaper, at least where I live), but my ears really aren't trained enough to setup a whole system by myself (could be partly due to my terrible memory), and there is a LOT to know before I could even dream of achieving what the MS-8 could do in a few minutes.

Three minor comments on my side:

1) On the table of contents, when you click on "Digital Sound Processors" it jumps to the part on amps;
2) Would it be possible to update the comments on the DSP and specifically the part that praises the MS-8 to add a warning about the BT issue and the dead units, and the possible BT workarounds (such as the one mentioned by Technic here)? I realise that one has to search before they buy something, but this information is really buried deep within the dungeons of a huge thread ;
3) In the same line of thought, making it clear that if you are upgrading the Logic 7 sound you need to bypass/delete the OEM amp (mainly since not only it applies it's own EQ, but it also modifies the EQ according to the speed you're going at), and adding a table with the main possible Logic 7 combinations to do this (HU recode + DSP/ DA1 + Audison BitOne or other compatible DSPs / DA2 + MS-8 or other compatible DSPs/etc.) would be very helpful.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that each system is very specific and you should do everything according to your specific needs. But this type of basic information could be essential for those of us who are still struggling to understand what the heck everyone is talking about ( ), I find.

In my case, for example, the guys who took care of my install are quite reputable here in Barcelona and work quite well in general but were totally clueless when it came to the Logic 7 OEM amp (they knew it couldn't simply be replaced with another amp due to MOST functionality, but they had no idea about the built-in EQ and how it affected the sound, and were telling me that nothing could be done).

I really wish I could provide some expertise here instead of asking so many questions. Thanks again for all the support I've been receiving, you people are certainly very helpful
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      04-23-2013, 10:01 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sight View Post
Is there a list of current speakers that fit an E9x (I have an E92)? Everything I've found is outdated consisting primarily of discontinued speakers it's been like this: trying to find a list of speakers that fit (Admittedly, it could be because I'm new to this too). Focal 100s and a select few seem to be about the only thing still in production that's commonly mentioned on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSneak View Post
I am looking for the same info as well the only brand Ive been able to find who still makes 4in comp set and is sold locally to me is Maestro.
I am looking for the same info, as it seems that some of the less expensive speakers are discontinued, though there is quite a few listed on this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343673. This will be for an e90.

Most likely I would just go with Co-axes in the stock locations rather than going with components and replacing the trim, mostly for cost reasons. I would like as much of a factory look as possible.

I am looking for some spacers/adapters for the front speakers. I have been in contact with jtsherri, and he does not make the spacers/adapters for the front speakers, but he does for the underseat sub. He did say that if I gave him a template he would come up with an adapter for the front speakers, I will continue to work with him on that and see how that goes.

I also read that Technic creates wiring harnesses, so I will contact him to see if I can get a wiring harness for the front speakers, so I will not have to cut any factory wiring.

Otherwise, lots of good information on this site, I feel as if I almost have enough information to make an informed decision.

I will continue to for more information, and I will see what I come up with.
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      04-27-2013, 11:04 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Rough draft for your subwoofer section:
link added to "speaker" post on page 1
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...46&postcount=6
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      04-27-2013, 11:07 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post

The Bluetooth echo will not go away unless they change the unit name completely -by removing the 8ms DSP delay.
Actually I have NO bluetooth echo....

In my case I use the bmw station for apple iphone. I have noticed that the echo is present only when the microphone is pointed in one certain direction. Thus it seems one could fix BT echo with some masking from the speaker output.
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      04-27-2013, 11:07 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiguy20002 View Post
I am looking for the same info, as it seems that some of the less expensive speakers are discontinued, though there is quite a few listed on this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343673. This will be for an e90.

Most likely I would just go with Co-axes in the stock locations rather than going with components and replacing the trim, mostly for cost reasons. I would like as much of a factory look as possible.

I am looking for some spacers/adapters for the front speakers. I have been in contact with jtsherri, and he does not make the spacers/adapters for the front speakers, but he does for the underseat sub. He did say that if I gave him a template he would come up with an adapter for the front speakers, I will continue to work with him on that and see how that goes.

I also read that Technic creates wiring harnesses, so I will contact him to see if I can get a wiring harness for the front speakers, so I will not have to cut any factory wiring.

Otherwise, lots of good information on this site, I feel as if I almost have enough information to make an informed decision.

I will continue to for more information, and I will see what I come up with.
You can get the trim for $60...its worth having deticated tweets and raising your soundstage.
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      04-27-2013, 11:09 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicax View Post
Three minor comments on my side:

1) On the table of contents, when you click on "Digital Sound Processors" it jumps to the part on amps;
2) Would it be possible to update the comments on the DSP and specifically the part that praises the MS-8 to add a warning about the BT issue and the dead units, and the possible BT workarounds (such as the one mentioned by Technic here)? I realise that one has to search before they buy something, but this information is really buried deep within the dungeons of a huge thread ;
3) In the same line of thought, making it clear that if you are upgrading the Logic 7 sound you need to bypass/delete the OEM amp (mainly since not only it applies it's own EQ, but it also modifies the EQ according to the speed you're going at), and adding a table with the main possible Logic 7 combinations to do this (HU recode + DSP/ DA1 + Audison BitOne or other compatible DSPs / DA2 + MS-8 or other compatible DSPs/etc.) would be very helpful.
:
Fixed 1 & 2
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      04-27-2013, 11:10 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
If I owned an audio shop, I would NEVER sell the MS-8. Like VP said, too many problems (problems cost money). However, in my personal car I would definitely have an MS-8.
Perfect synopsis
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      04-30-2013, 04:37 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Fixed 1 & 2
Thanks a lot!

Could you be more specific regarding the fix you might have found for the BT issue? Where is your mic pointed at when the echo is present, and where is it pointing to when the echo disappears?

Would it be possible to provide some pictures?
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      04-30-2013, 07:34 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
You can get the trim for $60...its worth having deticated tweets and raising your soundstage.
Now is the trim on both sides $60? I would assume it is, rather than being for one side. If it were entirely up to me, I would get the trim and get a component set for the front, but in the end the total cost would be double or triple just getting the co-axes. Keep in mind that most likely these will not be powered by more than the factory head unit, and I don't think that puts out enough power for a decent set of components. I know I can add an amplifier for the interior speakers, and another amp for a set of aftermarket subs, as I have done this in the past, but I don't think I want to go too crazy with this setup.
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      05-06-2013, 10:49 PM   #79
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Is it possible to just upgrade a hifi sound system to a logic7?
Trying to keep fully OEM..

Is it doable without any issues? As in its very straightforward..
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      05-07-2013, 08:17 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturnalEVO
Is it possible to just upgrade a hifi sound system to a logic7?
Trying to keep fully OEM..

Is it doable without any issues? As in its very straightforward..
Anything is possible with the right budget. For the amount of money you spend you will get about a 20c on the dollar upgrade. Logic7 is simply unimpressive compared to OEM-ish upgrades offered by VP-Electricity. Its barely better than hifi IMO.
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      05-10-2013, 04:33 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturnalEVO View Post
Is it possible to just upgrade a hifi sound system to a logic7?
Trying to keep fully OEM..

Is it doable without any issues? As in its very straightforward..
That seems to be a very common upgrade here in Spain, and people say it's quite straightforward (the hardest part is finding stuff second-hand).

However, I really wouldn't do it. I have the Logic 7 and the sound is really lacking (I'm extremely unsatisfied).

I would go directly aftermarket, it's very possible to keep the OEM look.
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      05-14-2013, 08:53 PM   #82
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I have a HIFI system in my 2011 328i. I just upgraded all my speakers & the sound is great! The problem is I have no push to my speakers. I just bought a JL 600/6 amp & need a harness from Technic. How do I get in touch with him? My amp will be in any day now and I would love to finish my project.
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      05-14-2013, 09:02 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicax View Post
That seems to be a very common upgrade here in Spain, and people say it's quite straightforward (the hardest part is finding stuff second-hand).

However, I really wouldn't do it. I have the Logic 7 and the sound is really lacking (I'm extremely unsatisfied).

I would go directly aftermarket, it's very possible to keep the OEM look.
I am looking to go aftermarket as well (keeping my options open).

However, you mention its a common upgrade there.. does that mean everything is plug and play, even though my car is not wired for the logic7 system.
What would I need? all speakers and 1 amp? or is there more to the logic7 system?
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      05-14-2013, 09:37 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturnalEVO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicax View Post
That seems to be a very common upgrade here in Spain, and people say it's quite straightforward (the hardest part is finding stuff second-hand).

However, I really wouldn't do it. I have the Logic 7 and the sound is really lacking (I'm extremely unsatisfied).

I would go directly aftermarket, it's very possible to keep the OEM look.
I am looking to go aftermarket as well (keeping my options open).

However, you mention its a common upgrade there.. does that mean everything is plug and play, even though my car is not wired for the logic7 system.
What would I need? all speakers and 1 amp? or is there more to the logic7 system?
If you all want to have a thread on retrofitting logic 7 to a non-L7 car then please start a new thread. I do not want this: threadjacked: Especially since most of us who frequent the boards do not recommend that solution
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      05-21-2013, 11:06 AM   #85
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For base audio system,If i'm using a processor like audison bit one/alpine H800,do I still need the amp to accept balanced differential inputs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
With Amps, if you are feeding with a signal from the HiFi coded head unit, you must use an amp that will accept balanced differential inputs, JL is one example that will. I think Alpine PDX will also and possibly the Arc Mini.

OEM Alpine HiFi upgrade
JL Audio XD600/6 (HiFi drop-in replacement)
JL Audio XD700/5
JL Audio HD Series
Arc Mini (+clones)
Alpine PDX?
JBL MS-A series?
Zapco
Vibe Litebox
Mosconi

Suggestions?

Pavlo's Choosing an Amp for my Setup

Amplifier wiring guide
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      05-21-2013, 12:16 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddmond
For base audio system,If i'm using a processor like audison bit one/alpine H800,do I still need the amp to accept balanced differential inputs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
With Amps, if you are feeding with a signal from the HiFi coded head unit, you must use an amp that will accept balanced differential inputs, JL is one example that will. I think Alpine PDX will also and possibly the Arc Mini.

OEM Alpine HiFi upgrade
JL Audio XD600/6 (HiFi drop-in replacement)
JL Audio XD700/5
JL Audio HD Series
Arc Mini (+clones)
Alpine PDX?
JBL MS-A series?
Zapco
Vibe Litebox
Mosconi

Suggestions?

Pavlo's Choosing an Amp for my Setup

Amplifier wiring guide
No you do not!
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      06-02-2013, 09:23 AM   #87
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Just another stupid question,did Alpine PDX-H800 accept balanced differential inputs as well?I could not find this information on their website or the manual.
Can anyone confirm?


Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Processors

If you have HiFi, you are well on your way to upgrading! If you have Base/Stereo, Logic7/Harman Kardon/Top-Hifi, or EPS/Individual, you probably have work to do if you want to start with a clean signal. The latter systems are tapped at the speaker level which means you will need to either:
  1. Recode your head-unit to Hifi (More links in Base Audio, above)
  2. Clean/sum the signal
  3. Use a MOST (proprietary fiber optic) compatible pre-amp. (Logic 7 or EPS only)

Even if you pick option 1, there are still many reasons to add a processor. Here are all the benefits:
  • Clean / De-EQ the factory signal
  • Sum the factory signal from multiple channels to get a full-range signal
  • Time-alignment of individual channels (including for each seating position)
  • Automatic level matching/calibration/EQ
  • Road Noise Compensation
  • Compressed media (i.e. MP3) compensation

Not all processors have every capability, again know your goals. Some of the options:
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      06-10-2013, 08:59 AM   #88
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hey guys im looking for some help, i got water leaked in to where the amp sits on my e92 335i and from what i can gather from researching i need a new amp. i took the amp out and on the back it says BMW TOP HIFI DSP, my headunit says BMW Professional.
from what i have searched this means that i have the logic 7 system.
all i want to know is, is there a cheaper alternative to changing out this amp? maybe something aftermarket? i know this should all be in this thread but ive tried looking and cant figure this out. im not looking to upgrade or anything i just want my sound back. ive seen these amps go for over 1000$ and i really dont want to spend that.
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