E90Post
 


Bimmer Retrofit
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos > R&T's take on the new GT3



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-30-2013, 01:17 PM   #23
davesaddiction
is fast cars
davesaddiction's Avatar
United_States
42
Rep
1,648
Posts

Drives: '08 E90 M3 6MT SSII BPM Stg II
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tulsa

iTrader: (0)

It's both. I am the one doing it, getting it right or getting it wrong, and no computer in between is going to decide to veto me. There's no modulating the clutch if it's an on/off switch... Also, the involvement of using both legs does contribute to the enjoyment, the feeling of connected-ness to the machine: Mazda's term is "jinba ittai".

What's next: self-driving cars that let you play like you're steering the wheel, but computers are doing it all for you?
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 01:27 PM   #24
Aventador97
Second Lieutenant
3
Rep
214
Posts

Drives: Mustang Cobra and Mustang V6
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kentucky

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaddiction
It's both. I am the one doing it, getting it right or getting it wrong, and no computer in between is going to decide to veto me. There's no modulating the clutch if it's an on/off switch... Also, the involvement of using both legs does contribute to the enjoyment, the feeling of connected-ness to the machine: Mazda's term is "jinba ittai".

What's next: self-driving cars that let you play like you're steering the wheel, but computers are doing it all for you?
Ya I think your right, I just think that it's a step forward regarding "save the manuals". I'm with you that nothing will ever be able to replace the feeling and satisfaction of a manual car. The problem is that high end exotic manufacturers can't justify developing new manual transmissions because the market isn't there. If a transmission like his idea can slowly bring the manual back into demand, thus forcing manufactures to develop it again, I'm for it.
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 01:51 PM   #25
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aventador97 View Post
The problem is that high end exotic manufacturers can't justify developing new manual transmissions because the market isn't there. If a transmission like his idea can slowly bring the manual back into demand, thus forcing manufactures to develop it again, I'm for it.
Not quite. Manuals are dead, dead, dead. But manual lovers are still around - the manufacturers will have to wait awhile until they're all dead, dead, dead too. The question is what to do in the meantime. If a relatively simple, low-cost adaptation of state-of-the-art hybrid transmissions can satisfy traditionalists until they die off, manufacturers can maximize demand for their products. And once DTS (Driver-Timed Shifting) is perfected, it can be specified as the front-end for whatever transmission technology (from Fred Flinstone's peds to DCT) is really making the car go.
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 01:59 PM   #26
FwdFtl
Volcano Knuckles
United_States
92
Rep
266
Posts

Drives: E60
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cali

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
off to prostitute myself out...so I need about $143,000 so that's what 1000 fat chicks at $143 each? or 143 really fat chicks at $1000 each??!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
A thought experiment...

What if DCTs came with a "stick" gear shifter along with a "clutch" pedal? The shifter would tell the DCT which gear to select and the pedal would be non-functional but give the driver the "feel" of clutching? Driving would be easier as every shift could be perfectly timed and would be perfectly executed, yet it would still be engaging for those expert in the use of a manual transmissions. Would this arrangement satisfy traditionalists? Can the engineers pull it off? Thoughts?
both great ideas
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 02:09 PM   #27
swanson
Convicted Felon
swanson's Avatar
43
Rep
1,653
Posts

Drives: chariot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

The problem is the pussification of man. Todays man(not all, but A LOT) doesnt want to work too much to drive. He just wants to be seen is something nice and expensive to show off in and wants to sip on hit latte all while driving an automatic/DCT. Not saying everybody is like this, but its true. Porsche is looking for more sales. They know that the GT3 is a pretty rare car compared to the regular 911 and only having a manual will alienate the posers. Now that PDK is available, the posers can be seen in the rarer 911 to show off. The manual transmission not only involves the driver and makes you feel like part of the experience, but it weeds out these posers.
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 02:21 PM   #28
FwdFtl
Volcano Knuckles
United_States
92
Rep
266
Posts

Drives: E60
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cali

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swanson View Post
The problem is the pussification of man. Todays man(not all, but A LOT) doesnt want to work too much to drive. He just wants to be seen is something nice and expensive to show off in and wants to sip on hit latte all while driving an automatic/DCT. Not saying everybody is like this, but its true. Porsche is looking for more sales. They know that the GT3 is a pretty rare car compared to the regular 911 and only having a manual will alienate the posers. Now that PDK is available, the posers can be seen in the rarer 911 to show off. The manual transmission not only involves the driver and makes you feel like part of the experience, but it weeds out these posers.
I get what you're saying, but what about the real F1 racers who use (what I'm assuming) an even more advanced version of PDK?

Are they too considered "pussies"?

I personally felt like more of a purists when I drove a SMG M5. The rev-matching downshifts, throttle blips, instantaneous gear shifts, it was a much more visceral experience to me than rowing through the gears.
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 02:42 PM   #29
swanson
Convicted Felon
swanson's Avatar
43
Rep
1,653
Posts

Drives: chariot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FwdFtl View Post
I get what you're saying, but what about the real F1 racers who use (what I'm assuming) an even more advanced version of PDK?

Are they too considered "pussies"?

I personally felt like more of a purists when I drove a SMG M5. The rev-matching downshifts, throttle blips, instantaneous gear shifts, it was a much more visceral experience to me than rowing through the gears.

C'mon man. Dont compare F1 with a little porsche.

I'll give you an example. I had a C6 Z06 and a 2011 M3 DCT. I wanted the DCT to see what it was all about. As you may know, the Z06 comes in manual only. While the DCT does in fact shift much faster then I or anybody else can shift and downshift, it was still dull to drive compared to the manual. Maybe that has a lot to do with the fact that the Z06 is a more capable and powerful car, but I've had plenty of manual cars to know its more than that. The manual, TO ME, is just a more pleasurable driving experience. It keeps you involved and on your toes. Its way more rewarding to me to make precise up and down shifts with the manual. I just feel like I'M driving the car and not the other way around.
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 02:51 PM   #30
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swanson View Post
The manual, TO ME, is just a more pleasurable driving experience. It keeps you involved and on your toes. Its way more rewarding to me to make precise up and down shifts with the manual. I just feel like I'M driving the car and not the other way around.
And if the engineers can replicate that "feeling" by the clever application of technology? Like they pump engine sound into the cabin to recreate the traditional sports car sound? Like they carefully and purposely allow road bumps to be transmitted through steering components so you get the "feel" of 1930's steering technology using 21st century components?
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 03:35 PM   #31
davesaddiction
is fast cars
davesaddiction's Avatar
United_States
42
Rep
1,648
Posts

Drives: '08 E90 M3 6MT SSII BPM Stg II
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tulsa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by williakz View Post
And if the engineers can replicate that "feeling" by the clever application of technology?
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 04:26 PM   #32
FwdFtl
Volcano Knuckles
United_States
92
Rep
266
Posts

Drives: E60
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cali

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swanson View Post
C'mon man. Dont compare F1 with a little porsche.

I'll give you an example. I had a C6 Z06 and a 2011 M3 DCT. I wanted the DCT to see what it was all about. As you may know, the Z06 comes in manual only. While the DCT does in fact shift much faster then I or anybody else can shift and downshift, it was still dull to drive compared to the manual. Maybe that has a lot to do with the fact that the Z06 is a more capable and powerful car, but I've had plenty of manual cars to know its more than that. The manual, TO ME, is just a more pleasurable driving experience. It keeps you involved and on your toes. Its way more rewarding to me to make precise up and down shifts with the manual. I just feel like I'M driving the car and not the other way around.
Fair enough. The debate will go on for decades
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 05:00 PM   #33
F1Venom
Banned
39
Rep
962
Posts

Drives: ZCP E90 M3
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Freud would probably explain manual transmission lovers as having some hidden homosexual impulses. The stick shifter is the penis and the manual tranny fanboy loves to hold it in his hand. Now he might not be attracted to men, but he loves the feeling of a penile object and controlling it with his hands.
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 05:10 PM   #34
Red Bread
Brigadier General
United_States
50
Rep
4,436
Posts

Drives: My wife's car
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Ugh, Freud can shove it! A manual is like having a good three course meal. An automatic is like having a burger, fries, ketchup and a chocolate shake blended together in a single cup.
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 05:18 PM   #35
williakz
Banned
1
Rep
119
Posts

Drives: Lexus LS460
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: AL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Venom View Post
Freud would probably explain manual transmission lovers as having some hidden homosexual impulses. The stick shifter is the penis and the manual tranny fanboy loves to hold it in his hand. Now he might not be attracted to men, but he loves the feeling of a penile object and controlling it with his hands.
So the auto manual and automatic would be what - an Orgasmatron?
Appreciate 0
      04-30-2013, 08:18 PM   #36
F1Venom
Banned
39
Rep
962
Posts

Drives: ZCP E90 M3
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Using my left foot to press in the clutch makes me feel like Ronnie Coleman doing leg presses. I feel so powerful jamming the pedal down to floor as fast as possible, I think my steroid addiction may have been cured because of manual transmissions.
In an auto my left leg might as well be kicking elderly people down the stairs because it's freaking useless in autos!
Appreciate 0
      05-01-2013, 07:28 AM   #37
KingOfJericho
Major General
KingOfJericho's Avatar
United_States
113
Rep
5,301
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
An auto is like taking a pill of nutrients as a meal while driving a manual is twirling the spaghetti and tasting every morsel. They both get you to the same place and one might be faster but I would much rather twirl that fork.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2014 CC R-Line DSG | 2010 S4 Sold | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Sold
Appreciate 0
      05-01-2013, 08:22 AM   #38
Aventador97
Second Lieutenant
3
Rep
214
Posts

Drives: Mustang Cobra and Mustang V6
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kentucky

iTrader: (0)

Ya I do, think that sadly you guys are right about manuals being "dead, dead, dead" and that manufactures will have to wait for us to die off, I think that you guys said it perfectly when stating that PDKs/paddle shifters are popular because people don't want to work to drive. People are lazy and just as you stated don't want to be the guy who stalls at a red light. People don't want to look bad and when you learn stock there are definitely instances where you look bad, but at the end of the day someone who can drive stick can drive an automatic far better then someone who can't. Stick makes you an overall better driver. In my opinion, paddle shifters allow people which ordinarily wouldn't be able to handle a performance car to drive them hard with out much difficultly. Imagine if the Veyron was a stick shift car, I'm willing to bet 80% of the people who own them (especially your rappers) couldn't drive the car hard at all, because it takes skill. Regarding F1, yes, they need paddle shifters. Obviously they are better for performance, but off the track the tenth of a second doesn't matter. I think Jay Leno said it well when he said "The fun happens between 40-120 mph" and you don't really need a paddle shift car in that time period.
Appreciate 0
      05-01-2013, 08:37 AM   #39
KingOfJericho
Major General
KingOfJericho's Avatar
United_States
113
Rep
5,301
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
I'm actually a terrible automatic driver. My wife hates it when I drive our FX.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2014 CC R-Line DSG | 2010 S4 Sold | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Sold
Appreciate 0
      05-01-2013, 08:42 AM   #40
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
France
147
Rep
3,586
Posts

Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dreilšndereck

iTrader: (0)

Automatic is shit. Manual is alot more involving. It is like computer+printer vs. typewriter. With a computer you just press some prgramed buttons, with types writer you have to find out how hard to press that button which then mecanically types a letter on a white sheet of paper. You better be good at spelling. Ther is so much more involvement in writing with a typewriter than a computer. And that sound....

To hell with computers. Long live the typewriter.




Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I'm actually a terrible automatic driver.
That is a shame. It means you are even worse at driving manual.
Appreciate 0
      05-01-2013, 08:44 AM   #41
Draman
Second Lieutenant
2
Rep
215
Posts

Drives: f06 650i, Audi S7, e93 335i
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aventador97 View Post
Ya I do, think that sadly you guys are right about manuals being "dead, dead, dead" and that manufactures will have to wait for us to die off, I think that you guys said it perfectly when stating that PDKs/paddle shifters are popular because people don't want to work to drive. People are lazy and just as you stated don't want to be the guy who stalls at a red light. People don't want to look bad and when you learn stock there are definitely instances where you look bad, but at the end of the day someone who can drive stick can drive an automatic far better then someone who can't. Stick makes you an overall better driver. In my opinion, paddle shifters allow people which ordinarily wouldn't be able to handle a performance car to drive them hard with out much difficultly. Imagine if the Veyron was a stick shift car, I'm willing to bet 80% of the people who own them (especially your rappers) couldn't drive the car hard at all, because it takes skill. Regarding F1, yes, they need paddle shifters. Obviously they are better for performance, but off the track the tenth of a second doesn't matter. I think Jay Leno said it well when he said "The fun happens between 40-120 mph" and you don't really need a paddle shift car in that time period.
No offense, but this is easily one of the stupidest things I have read. Make whatever argument you want about driving a manual being more involving than an automatic, but being able to drive a manual does not necessarily make you a better driver. It most certainly does not make you better able to drive an automatic than someone that can't drive a manual; there are professional race car drivers out there that do not know how to drive manual at all, there was an interview with an F1 driver about a year ago (wish I could remember who it was) where he said as much. Are you a better driver than an F1 driver because you have a mighty manual transmission in your Cobra?
__________________
F06 650i Carbon Black / Black

Audi S7 Phantom Black Pearl / Lunar Silver

E93 335i Sapphire Black / Coral Red
Appreciate 0
      05-01-2013, 09:35 AM   #42
Aventador97
Second Lieutenant
3
Rep
214
Posts

Drives: Mustang Cobra and Mustang V6
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kentucky

iTrader: (0)

No offense taken, manual vs automatic, is always a fun debate. I don't feel that I'm better than any F1 driver at all, that's just not a fair comparison. However, I do believe that I'm a better driver than someone with the exact same experience, but drives an automatic. That's just my opinion, obviously yours differs and that's fine. I'm not saying that an automatic makes you a bad driver and that every car should be a manual. There is a time and place for both transmissions, I just don't feel that in high performance cars that a paddle shift car is the same. I really do think that paddle shift cars are popular, because they give the everyday driver the ability to drive past what their ability in a stick shift would be. Now regarding daily drivers (like many 3-series), I have no problems with automatics; that's what their purpose is. I do think that everyone should learn to drive stick, because (again my opinion) knowing how to drive stick causes you to think more. It involves you with the car a lot more than an automatic and makes you consider more factors. Thus making you a better driver when you understand the car more. Obviously, as you stated that the ability and calibre of driver differs. Yes the F1 driver who doesn't know stick is a better driver than my self, but I think if you took two F1 drivers (one who knows stick and one who doesn't) with the same amount of experience I think the one who knows both is going to be your better driver.
Appreciate 0
      05-01-2013, 09:47 AM   #43
W///
Major General
W///'s Avatar
149
Rep
5,950
Posts

Drives: 2008 E92 M3/1999 E36 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

iTrader: (12)

Not all of us are after all out speed, that's the problem. Like the article said, I'll gladly lose a few tenths of a second to 60 (hell there's always a car that's faster than you anyway, think GTR) but get to actually drive the car.

I just don't understand why Porsche goes through all the trouble of designing a great 7MT, but only to put in Carreras. And don't tell me the cost is too high to have both as an option. The VW group has more resources than any other car company/group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaddiction View Post
It's both. I am the one doing it, getting it right or getting it wrong, and no computer in between is going to decide to veto me. There's no modulating the clutch if it's an on/off switch... Also, the involvement of using both legs does contribute to the enjoyment, the feeling of connected-ness to the machine: Mazda's term is "jinba ittai".

What's next: self-driving cars that let you play like you're steering the wheel, but computers are doing it all for you?
Freaken hilarious
__________________
2008 E92 M3: Sparkling Graphite | Bamboo Beige | 6MT | CF Roof | HRE | Catless Eisenmann Race | BPM Sport | Swift | Arkym | Mode Carbon | M.Perf
Appreciate 0
      05-01-2013, 09:49 AM   #44
Red Bread
Brigadier General
United_States
50
Rep
4,436
Posts

Drives: My wife's car
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Good grief. I love manuals and will always have at least one, but I can't say it makes me a better driver. I have driven PDK/F1/DSG cars on the track and it sure does give you more bandwidth to deal with the racing line, tire slip and other cars. If I wanted a GT3 for track use, I'd be ecstatic about this change, but since I'd rather use it as a glorified grocery getter, it does make me a little sad that there's no available manual, even if a Carrera S with PDK might dust me at traffic lights.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40 AM.




e90post
e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST