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      05-20-2013, 09:07 AM   #1233
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Yeah well there's also a crap ton of Camrys and minivans so not very many people care about speed. Perhaps the BRZ STi will change my mind if the 0-60 time is in the low 5s high 4s.
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      05-20-2013, 09:12 AM   #1234
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BRZ 0-60 is more like 6.4 and I think I've seen a 6.1 from one of the magazines. Not exactly stunning, but not the same thing as 7.0 seconds either. Miatas have been in the 6's since the NC.

Funny that you mention the Camry, since the V6 Camry is quicker than quite a few decent sports cars, but I can't imagine that influences even one annual purchase. Straight line speed is one factor in buying a car, but certainly not the only one.
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      05-20-2013, 10:34 AM   #1235
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Yeah well there's also a crap ton of Camrys and minivans so not very many people care about speed. Perhaps the BRZ STi will change my mind if the 0-60 time is in the low 5s high 4s.
Just to give you a better idea... look at the US sales number of the M3 (they are traditionally faster from 0-62 mph) :

E30 M3
1985 - 1992............. 4,996

E36 M3
1992 - 1999............. 32,932 (18,961 Coupes + 7,760 Sedans + 6,211 Verts)

E46 M3
2001 - 2006............. 43,779 (26,202 Coupes + 17,577 Verts)

E92/90/93 M3
2007 - as at 2010.... 23,760 (14400 + 4020 + 5340)**


** Global sales figures, as of 2010, were 24,000 E92 + 6,700 E90 + 8,900 E93. For the US sales figures it was considered that they account for up to 60% of the global sales of the V8 M3.



As you can see there's no possible comparison between the HUGE sales numbers of the Miata and those of the M3 throughout the years. I don't know what BMW is waiting for...



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There must be a reason for so much Miatas sold in the US since its introduction in the american market about 20 years ago (mind you the Miata is slower than the Toyobaru)...

NA
1989............... 23,052
1990............... 35,944
1991............... 31,240
1992............... 24,964
1993............... 21,588
1994............... 21,400
1995............... 20,174
1996............... 18,408
1997............... 17,218
NB
1998............... 19,845
1999............... 17,738
2000............... 18,299
2001............... 16,486
2002............... 14,392
2003............... 10,920
2004............... 9,356
NC
2005............... 9,801
2006............... 16,897
2007............... 15,075
2008............... 10,977
2009............... 7,917
2010............... 6,370
2011............... 5,674
Total............ 382,758
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      05-20-2013, 02:16 PM   #1236
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Well... maybe a diesel version of the GT86 can be possible afterall... given Toyota's recent interest in this technology.


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BMW Group and Toyota Agree to Mid-to-long-term Research Collaboration in Environment-friendly Technologies
Dec 1st 2011

BMW Group to Supply 1.6L and 2.0L BMW Fuel Efficient Diesel Engines to Toyota Motor

Tokio/München - December 1, 2011... BMW Group and Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC) announce that they today signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) concerning a mid-to-long-term collaboration on next-generation environment-friendly technologies.

Under the MOU, the two companies agreed on a collaborative research in the field of next-generation lithium-ion battery technologies. Furthermore, they have agreed to identify and discuss other possible collaborative projects.

In addition, Toyota Motor Europe (TME), TMC's European subsidiary, and BMW Group have entered into a contract under which BMW Group is to supply 1.6 liter and 2.0 liter diesel engines to TME starting in 2014. The engines will be installed in certain Toyota-produced vehicles planned for sale in the European market. Through this agreement, Toyota plans to expand its European lineup and sales of fuel-efficient, low CO2-emission diesel-powered vehicles.

Marking the announcement, Norbert Reithofer, Chairman of the Board of Management of BMW AG, said: "Toyota is the leading provider of environment-friendly series technology in the volume segment and the BMW Group is the most innovative and sustainable manufacturer of premium automobiles. We are now joining forces to further develop environment-friendly technologies and to expand our innovation leadership in each of our segments. Supplying Toyota with our fuel efficient and dynamic diesel engines represents another important step in the planned expansion of our sales activities for engines and powertrain systems."

Representing TMC, President Akio Toyoda said: "It is a great joy and a thrill to enter into this mid-to-long-term collaborative relationship with BMW, a company with its own culture and history from its many years of car manufacturing in Europe, and a company that makes cars that are fun to drive. In the spirit of contributing to furthering the development of the auto industry and society, both companies will bring their wide-ranging knowledge - starting with that concerning environmental technologies - to the table and make ever-better cars."

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      05-20-2013, 04:23 PM   #1237
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Well... maybe a diesel version of the GT86 can be possible afterall... given Toyota's recent interest in this technology.



Dear god not this shit again. Here comes another 30 pages about every random diesel on the market; I might as well start linking articles to Cayenne diesels, Golf GTDs and GL Blutecs to save you the time and effort.

Here's a thought: wait a few months, stop bumping the thread every other hour, and let the manufacturers make their announcements.
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      05-20-2013, 04:37 PM   #1238
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Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
Dear god not this shit again. Here comes another 30 pages about every random diesel on the market; I might as well start linking articles to Cayenne diesels, Golf GTDs and GL Blutecs to save you the time and effort.

Here's a thought: wait a few months, stop bumping the thread every other hour, and let the manufacturers make their announcements.
It's kind of amusing to watch this spiral further out of control. Mention Kobayashi, see how that goes...

Maybe mix in a fringe F1 driver and a diesel for true humor.
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      05-20-2013, 05:49 PM   #1239
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Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
Dear god not this shit again. Here comes another 30 pages about every random diesel on the market; I might as well start linking articles to Cayenne diesels, Golf GTDs and GL Blutecs to save you the time and effort.

Here's a thought: wait a few months, stop bumping the thread every other hour, and let the manufacturers make their announcements.
Unfortunately, you can't mention a single lightweight diesel engined driver's car... and that's the REAL problem: so much about fuel efficiency and not a single diesel lightweight REAL sports car. So, fear no more... because besides the Volkswagen Bluesport concept there's few examples to write home about.

As for your thought, well... here's mine: the manufacturers, with some healthy exceptions, are more concerned to whatever sells better in China right now.

That's why I just love the likes of Toyobaru and Alfa Romeo 4c... what can say, I just want them to be perfect, so some diesel engined car like one of those is mandatory! Please listen to the man, listen to the man... it's never too much



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      05-20-2013, 08:35 PM   #1240
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Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
Dear god not this shit again. Here comes another 30 pages about every random diesel on the market; I might as well start linking articles to Cayenne diesels, Golf GTDs and GL Blutecs to save you the time and effort.

Here's a thought: wait a few months, stop bumping the thread every other hour, and let the manufacturers make their announcements.
lol, yeah. everyone's bored with these cars by now, bump this thread when something interesting happens such as the release of the BRZ-STi.
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      05-20-2013, 09:40 PM   #1241
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This car is like a modern day S2000 specs wise. It should be a great car.

I like it. I looks great and should have a starting price around 27k.
wouldnt that put it very close price range to brz?


And no engine upgrade for STI????
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      05-21-2013, 07:41 AM   #1242
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wouldnt that put it very close price range to brz?


And no engine upgrade for STI????
I'm not quite following you. Are you asking if a price of 27k would put it close to the price of a STI?
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      05-21-2013, 09:33 AM   #1243
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If they make an STI I hope they don't put in the same engine that's in the WRX so it won't sound like it has a misfire straight from the factory.
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      05-21-2013, 09:36 AM   #1244
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If they make an STI I hope they don't put in the same engine that's in the WRX so it won't sound like it has a misfire straight from the factory.
I guess you're not going to like the new Boxster/Cayman turbo four cylinder engine either.
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      05-21-2013, 12:21 PM   #1245
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I guess you're not going to like the new Boxster/Cayman turbo four cylinder engine either.
So you think I'm saying that motor sounds like it has a misfire because it's a turbo four cylinder?
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      05-21-2013, 01:19 PM   #1246
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So you think I'm saying that motor sounds like it has a misfire because it's a turbo four cylinder?
More because it's a boxer four, just like the Boxster/Cayman four will be.
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      05-21-2013, 01:37 PM   #1247
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More because it's a boxer four, just like the Boxster/Cayman four will be.
Flat fours have a misfire sound if the manufacturer doesn't fit equal length headers. The Subaru owners who are smart install a set of aftermarket ones so their cars sound healthy at the expense of a little low end power. Hopefully Porsche does the right thing.
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      05-21-2013, 03:27 PM   #1248
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Well, BRZ/GT86 has EL headers. And I'm sure Porsche will do the same. UEL header lose power/torque.
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      05-22-2013, 08:53 AM   #1249
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'Nuff said?!


Quote:
I've got the the roadster version of the cayman (ie boxster) and will say that I love both of the cars.

Things I like better about the BRZ:
1) The steering wheel. Absolutely fantastic
2) Short shifter (my spyder was not equipped with the optional short shifter)
3) better gas mileage
4) better daily driver

Things I like better about the boxster spyder
1) exotic looking and rare
2) flat 6 sound. Nothing beats it
3) Performance.
4) better weekend/track car

Both are fun to drive on the street and the track. There's no doubt that the boxster/cayman outperforms the BRZ in every way possible, but on the street and everyday driving it's really not that important. People like to bag on the BRZ interior, but I honestly think it's a great interior. Deviated stitching everywhere, great seats, good layout and positioning. I don't get out of the Porsche, sit in the BRZ and say "gee, this interior sucks". No way. If I had to choose between a cayman and BRZ, it would be a Cayman without batting an eye. However, both have a distinctive and important role to play in the automotive world.





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      05-22-2013, 05:48 PM   #1250
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Should an 1.6 direct injection turbocharged petrol engine have ever been under the Toyobaru's bonnet?! Well, these hot hatches just answer to the question with a special mention going to the 'Aston' Fiesta. I already liked the Focus very much but this one looks the business:


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      05-23-2013, 11:51 AM   #1251
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Sometimes JC manages to surprise us with great insight...





Jeremy on: Lotus


Quote:
And so there we are. Saab, TVR, Humber, Riley, Gilbern, Wolseley, AC, De Tomaso. All dead. And now it seems Lotus is peeping through the cemetery's rusting gate.

Indeed, earlier this month, there were reports that the axe had already fallen. Can you even begin to imagine the torrent of stories that this would have generated, had it been true? We'd have read reams about the engineering prowess of founder Colin Chapman, who realised in the Fifties what other carmakers are only just beginning to understand now: lightness is everything.

Motorsport enthusiasts would have produced thousands of words about the black and gold JPS Lotus F1 cars. There would have been eulogies about the seven world championships, and interviews with Emerson Fittipaldi. And tears would have turned the purple prose into a mauve mush.

Then you'd have been treated to miles of column inches on road cars from the glory days. Men with beards would have gone to Norfolk and driven around in old Sevens. There would have been pictures of Diana Rigg who used an Elan in The Avengers, and Roger Moore who had an Esprit in various Bond movies.

And I wouldn't have been surprised by any of it, because Lotus did indeed have a veneer of excellence. But behind the outer layer of sharp handling and Ayrton Senna and boffins working their magic among the turnip fields of East Anglia, Lotus is actually a company with a hopeless and, in some ways, slightly disgusting past.

It all began well enough in some London stables. And there can be no doubt that Colin Chapman was deeply clever. Having coined the mantra "Simplify, then add lightness", he proceeded to do no such thing. He added complications, many of which were very successful. It was he who brought aerodynamics to motor racing. He who invented ground effect. He who introduced composites.

But, sadly, it appears that he wasn't a very good businessman. Which meant that in 1980, when sales were low because of a global depression, he didn't innovate or invest his way out of trouble. He made an arrangement with Toyota whereby Lotus would offer expertise in handling in return for not much, so far as I can tell.

Meanwhile, to boost sales in the US, he did a deal with an American lawyer which was one gigantic tax-avoidance scheme. Anyone who invested was given a personalised Esprit Turbo. I'm sure it was all very clever, but when you are moving columns of numbers around in ledgers, you are not thinking up the next big thing in your car factory...

That's why the next big thing was in someone else's car factory. John DeLorean's. Mr DeLorean had employed Lotus to design a chassis for his new sports car which would be built in Northern Ireland, in a factory paid for by the British government.

All was well until it transpired a great deal of money had gone missing. DeLorean fled and was subsequently busted for dealing cocaine. DeLorean went t**s-up. And Her Majesty's tax inspectors turned their attention to Colin Chapman, who promptly died of a heart attack. He was only 54.

The company was saved by a group of businessmen who did some kind of a deal with the taxman. And there was much cheering and waving of flags in the turnip fields. But it quickly became obvious that the businessmen, though wealthy, were not wealthy enough to go it alone in the car world. And so, in 1986, Lotus was sold to GM.

It was a vanity project really for the then GM chairman, Bob Eaton. But, quite soon, the bean-counters and shareholders and everyone else realised that entrusting a small, boutique sports car company to the biggest car firm in the world would be like United Biscuits taking over Prince Charles's shortbread operations.

So, six years later, Lotus was flogged to a company in Luxembourg which was run by a chap called Romano Artioli. He commissioned a new car, named it after his grand-daughter Elisa. And then went bust.

So along came Proton who seem to have invested the grand total of £0. They kept on making the Elise in various guises until it started to feel old-fashioned and a bit rubbish. Then they kept making it some more. And then they employed Dany Bahar who'd been senior vice president (small cog) at Ferrari's aftershave division who said that he would take Proton's £0 investment and use it to turn Lotus into the best and biggest sports car company, with lots of exciting new models, all of which would be better than any Ferrari. He was suspended and then dismissed.

Now, Lotus is run by a company called DRB-Hicom. Which doesn't sound very romantic. The original Lotus Sevens are now made by an outfit whose F1 car turns up at the track every other weekend to come last. And then there's the actual Lotus F1 car which isn't a Lotus at all.

So. To recap. Lotus was mismanaged from Day One by an endless succession of owners who didn't know what on Earth to do with it. People who used it as a tax dodge. Enthusiasts. Massive corporations.

All lured into the web by some piece of engineering cleverness in the Fifties. And then all spat out again by the harsh reality that image won't sustain an inferior product for very long.

Where have we heard that before? On the epitaph of every British car firm that's gone belly-up in the past few years. Take Austin. They made the Mini, and it was very clever. So they kept making it... for 40 bloody years. Then you have Land Rover, which, after the war, made a sturdy 4WD car. It, too, was very clever and they're still making the damn thing today.

When Lotus really was in trouble and really did need to scythe its way back to prosperity, what did it do? It built a new Elan. And what's it doing now? God knows. Not preparing to shock the world, that's for sure.

If VW was being run by the British, it would still be making the Beetle. If Citroen were based in Coventry, it'd still be churning out 2CVs. If Apple were a UK business, its computers would still be six-feet across. We seem to have made resting on our laurels a national pastime in this country, and I worry we are seeing the same sort of thing going on today at Aston Martin.

I like the current range. Everyone does. But I can sense when I drive the supposedly new Vanquish that it feels old-fashioned. Buzzy buttons don't completely mask the fact that it comes with a whiff of the 10-year-old DB9. This is no good. To survive these days, you need to find money so you can invest your way into the future.

Or you need an innovation so brilliant that buyers will come in droves anyway. You can't just bumble along in a red-phone-box state of mind saying: "But we've always done it this way." Or you'll end up like the London taxi.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-23-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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      05-24-2013, 08:49 AM   #1252
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"Der cayman-killer aus bayern"... this can only be a joke right?!


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      05-24-2013, 09:20 AM   #1253
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This thread is such a train wreck...

In all seriousness, how the hell is that a Cayman killer? If you're going to have a thread espousing the value of light, relatively low powered cars, why did you just bomb your own thread with a relatively fat, large car that isn't likely to be any lighter than the E82 it replaced nor more powerful than the N54 versions of the E82?
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      05-24-2013, 09:29 AM   #1254
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THIS CAN ONLY BE A JOKE!

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"Der cayman-killer aus bayern"... this can only be a joke right?!


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