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      09-17-2007, 10:38 AM   #1
philbert
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Modded 335i vs Modded M5

Before I say anything: Flamesuit activated

This is a video for those of you who are **interested**. An educated and mature discussion would be ideal. This is an E60 M5.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83626

Mods of both cars are listed in the thread. I'd say about no more than 6.5k worth on the 335i

This inevitably raises the question: Now we know for sure that a 335i could be considerably faster **in a straight line** when compared to the E92 M3 with a few- relatively cheap mods. No big hardware modding e.g. turbo conversions and the works.

Sure the 335i, will never be the ///M, but most of us do regular, around town driving. No track days here. Is the 335i still the poor man's choice, or the wise man's choice?

Sorry if this is a repost.
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      09-17-2007, 10:43 AM   #2
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I guess it depends what you want. The 335 is plently fast stock and really fast modded. However, I dont think the driving experience is as thrilling. In some ways its like the difference between the 997 C2 and the C2S.

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      09-17-2007, 10:56 AM   #3
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Wrong forum.
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      09-17-2007, 11:02 AM   #4
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My bad, I noticed only after I submitted the thread that the forum seemed to be exclusively for e92 m3 photo/videos.
General/other cars talk eh?
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      09-17-2007, 11:07 AM   #5
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Well its a good discuss item none the less....

After thinking about my answer a little more I came up with a little more honest of an answer.

In stock form I perfer the M3 for its looks and performance. If I didnt care about a warrenty then maybe the 335i would be the way to go. However, if I bought a 335i I would have to modify it both on the outside and inside to achieve the look I wanted as well as the performance. To me the M3 comes with everything I want all in one package and I dont run the risk of losing my warrenty or maintenance plan!

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      09-17-2007, 11:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Well its a good discuss item none the less....

After thinking about my answer a little more I came up with a little more honest of an answer.

In stock form I perfer the M3 for its looks and performance. If I didnt care about a warrenty then maybe the 335i would be the way to go. However, if I bought a 335i I would have to modify it both on the outside and inside to achieve the look I wanted as well as the performance. To me the M3 comes with everything I want all in one package and I dont run the risk of losing my warrenty or maintenance plan!

Jason
I also appreciate the small things that come together to make the M what it is. Carbon fiber roof and interior trimming, side gills, Powerdome, Quad Exhaust and all the other good stuff.

If I had the money I would definitely take the ///M over the 335i. But the fact that the 335i can be made a good deal quicker with a few cheap mods is disheartening.

Imagine you cruising in your M3 when a modded 335i pulls up next to you only to walk all over you three seconds later.
Just playing devil's advocate here.
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      09-17-2007, 11:59 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philbert View Post
Before I say anything: Flamesuit activated

This is a video for those of you who are **interested**. An educated and mature discussion would be ideal. This is an E60 M5.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83626

Mods of both cars are listed in the thread. I'd say about no more than 6.5k worth on the 335i

This inevitably raises the question: Now we know for sure that a 335i could be considerably faster **in a straight line** when compared to the E92 M3 with a few- relatively cheap mods. No big hardware modding e.g. turbo conversions and the works.

Sure the 335i, will never be the ///M, but most of us do regular, around town driving. No track days here. Is the 335i still the poor man's choice, or the wise man's choice?

Sorry if this is a repost.
Wrong forum yes, but this sort of reasoning has a problem. Buying a car for mods is not necessarily a wise man's choice given warranty issues, durability and the like. It certainly may be an enthusiast's choice. You imply that for "around town driving" the 335i is enough, and that is certainly a reasonable opinion. If so, why do you need mods for straight line driving? Does your around town driving involve regular stoplight races? Purchasing a 335 over an M3 because the 335 is better for around town driving is certainly a very arguable opinion (if not the opinion of everyone here ) but it doesn't make sense to buy a car that is sufficient for your driving needs and then mod it to make it comparable to a car you think is overkill. Either you think the 335 is good enough or you don't, and if you don't, are mods really the way to go for most people? Aside from the hobbyist, I think not.

Mods involve an increase in the total cost of ownership on the car -- they increase your total ownership expenses (purchase price of car+purchase price of mods+all service fees+fuel+insurance, etc) but do not increase the return on the car when you sell it. The total cost of ownership of a modified 335 and an unmodified M may not be that far off. Going on initial price alone is not the only way to look at it. I could be wrong as you do not see a full analyis here , but a cheap guesstimate:

2005 330ci coupe
Used "good private party" = 26570 with typical options, no NAV
Original price, guesstimate = $42k
TCO now: (service free, let's say 8% tax like here), 19k
2005 M3 coupe
Used "good private party" = 38220, stick, no 19's, no NAV
Original price, guesstimate = $54k
TCO now: (service free, $1600 gas guzzler, 8% tax), 21.6k

Again, this is just an estimate, but the point is if you mod a 3 to get M3 performance, the low ROI of mods makes the 3 more expensive.


I also don't think that one video is terribly meaningful given all the reproducible data we've seen here suggests that "now we know for sure that a 335i could be considerably faster in a straight line" is not only poorly worded ("know for sure...could be") but also incorrect, given your criteria of no big engine mods.
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      09-17-2007, 11:59 AM   #8
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I could go out and spend 5k on a 1990 5.0 and put in another 5k worth of mods and have a car that could beat the new M3.

Honestly, I dont care about all out straight line performance.

Again, and this is the bottom line, the M3 is the whole package perfected by BMW engineers. Representing there very best in M performance engineering.
Thats what I am paying for.

If I didnt have the money for the M3 then I know I would be happy with a 335i .

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      09-17-2007, 12:11 PM   #9
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Poorly worded and incorrect? The 335i had a car length from 20-130 MPH on an e60 m5 in p500 mode with upgraded exhaust and removed char filter.... When the 335i hit the 155 mph limiter the M5 would pull ahead by 1-1.5 CL. The guys who raced are good friends- and 3 runs and the man's word is proof enough for me.
I don't see how that is incorrect given the criteria of engine mods- there aren't any big hardware changes albeit the down pipe, exhaust, and FMIC; the rest is ECU tuning. Once people start upgrading turbos and suspension you should damn well be able to suspect similar handling to the M3 and a ton more HP.
I remember reading an interview of a BMW engineer speaking about how BMW could have easily added a good deal of more HP but didn't so the car could retain that "BMW feel."
If your leasing cars then all of this is irrelevant- speaking from a buying stand point here. That 335i has no more than 7k worth in mods, putting it at lets say around 51- still considerably lower than what we could expect from the M3- 62-65k msrp
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      09-17-2007, 12:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
I could go out and spend 5k on a 1990 5.0 and put in another 5k worth of mods and have a car that could beat the new M3.

Honestly, I dont care about all out straight line performance.

Again, and this is the bottom line, the M3 is the whole package perfected by BMW engineers. Representing there very best in M performance engineering.
Thats what I am paying for.

If I didnt have the money for the M3 then I know I would be happy with a 335i .

Jason
Yes but your comparing 2 completely different worlds. I'm taking about 2 cars with the same basic chassis,styling, look and body, developed within 6 months of eachother- from the same company out of the same factory developed by engineers that make the same cars.
Thats an 18 year old car your talking about.
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      09-17-2007, 12:15 PM   #11
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Actually what was stated was that BMW could have added more power but there were problems with over heating and the downpipes failing. Of course these issues have been remedied somewhat and the Xede, Procede modded cars are doing well.


We all admit the 335i is a great car. If you want to mod it and make just as fast as an M3 then go for it.

But, I am not going to be envious when I am sitting in my M3 and you blow my doors off. That is not why I am buying the M3 over the 335i.

Jason
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      09-17-2007, 12:17 PM   #12
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Stock vs. Modded ?
Always an unfair comparison.
However, the 335 has such great mod potential even more so with the 335x.

The 335 and M3 are two different tax brackets.
Where a 335 owner may spend $6500 on mods a M3 owner may have to spend $11,000 on somewhat equal performance increasing mods but like I said two different tax brackets. I've heard that VF engineering is planning a twin turbo kit for the E92 M3, (you can call them to confirm) at a price inline with M3 performance upgrades, (once again "tax Bracket").

So then the question becomes:
Modded vs. Modded ?
So what would happen when you pulled up to the light this time ?
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      09-17-2007, 12:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philbert View Post
Poorly worded and incorrect? The 335i had a car length from 20-130 MPH on an e60 m5 in p500 mode with upgraded exhaust and removed char filter.... When the 335i hit the 155 mph limiter the M5 would pull ahead by 1-1.5 CL. The guys who raced are good friends- and 3 runs and the man's word is proof enough for me.
I don't see how that is incorrect given the criteria of engine mods- there aren't any big hardware changes albeit the down pipe, exhaust, and FMIC; the rest is ECU tuning. Once people start upgrading turbos and suspension you should damn well be able to suspect similar handling to the M3 and a ton more HP.
I remember reading an interview of a BMW engineer speaking about how BMW could have easily added a good deal of more HP but didn't so the car could retain that "BMW feel."
If your leasing cars then all of this is irrelevant- speaking from a buying stand point here.
One video is never enough for me. Dynos please. Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron.

Of course we're not talking about leasing, as mods become even more expensive on a leased car (cost of removal). The point is that mods have essentially zero ROI, far worse than the depreciating cost of the car and thus increase total cost of ownership considerably. This difference becomes less the longer you keep the car, but I'm guessing people who mods 335's significantly for speed won't keep the car past warranty.

EDIT: Of course, if modding is your jones, then do it! But don't expect to take a 335 and make an M3 for less money overall.

Last edited by Keto; 09-17-2007 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Clarification
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      09-17-2007, 12:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceWain View Post
Stock vs. Modded ?
Always an unfair comparison.
However, the 335 has such great mod potential even more so with the 335x.

The 335 and M3 are two different tax brackets.
Where a 335 owner may spend $6500 on mods a M3 owner may have to spend $11,000 on somewhat equal performance increasing mods but like I said two different tax brackets. I've heard that VF engineering is planning a twin turbo kit for the E92 M3, (you can call them to confirm) at a price inline with M3 performance upgrades, (once again "tax Bracket").

So then the question becomes:
Modded vs. Modded ?
So what would happen when you pulled up to the light this time ?
Hehe. Only time will tell.
But in this case comparing modded vs Stock is fair because your talking about a 20k or so difference in MSRP.
Plus you get easy gains and much better "tuneability" with a turbo engine as opposed to NA. So I'd say close to triple the price for the same gains on a turbo engine when compared to an NA engine
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      09-17-2007, 12:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceWain View Post
Stock vs. Modded ?
Always an unfair comparison.
However, the 335 has such great mod potential even more so with the 335x.

The 335 and M3 are two different tax brackets.
Where a 335 owner may spend $6500 on mods a M3 owner may have to spend $11,000 on somewhat equal performance increasing mods but like I said two different tax brackets. I've heard that VF engineering is planning a twin turbo kit for the E92 M3, (you can call them to confirm) at a price inline with M3 performance upgrades, (once again "tax Bracket").

So then the question becomes:
Modded vs. Modded ?
So what would happen when you pulled up to the light this time ?
Modded vs. Modded. the M's will always pull at higher speeds. That guy's 335 is just sick, one crazy 335.
Bottom line is M car is an M car, 335 should be compared not to an M in any way

Edit: Not
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      09-17-2007, 12:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Yes but your comparing 2 completely different worlds. I'm taking about 2 cars with the same basic chassis,styling, look and body, developed within 6 months of eachother- from the same company out of the same factory developed by engineers that make the same cars.
Thats an 18 year old car your talking about.
What do you want me to say then?

Yes, the 335i has the potential to be just as fast as the new M3 WITH MODS! It also will handles great even though the new M handles better.

I am the guy that likes to buy the whole package right from the factory. Given its performance by BMW engineers. Your 335i with software upgrades will have its peformance engineered by aftermarket techs. Not a bad thing but not as good as BMW IMO....

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      09-17-2007, 12:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
Modded vs. Modded. the M's will always pull at higher speeds. That guy's 335 is just sick, one crazy 335.
Bottom line is M car is an M car, 335 should be compared to an M in any way

I'm not sure what you are saying here. ????
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      09-17-2007, 12:27 PM   #18
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Ok good point about resale value. Now to bringup the lease question...
335is with ONE $349 dollar (undetectable) mod- Juicebox Stage 2- are trapping at 110.9 MPH with a 12.9 1/4 mile. Sound familiar? Just playing devil's advocate here don't have me whacked. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84072
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      09-17-2007, 12:30 PM   #19
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I'm not sure what you are saying here. ????
LOL i dont blame you! i forgot the "not".. so it should say "should not compare..."
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      09-17-2007, 12:32 PM   #20
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How did this get moved into this forum?

And philbert, it is pretty clear after your numerous posts on this thread that you came in here for a reason. Despite all your claims about being unbiased. This card has been played before. A 335 owner comes in and says they like the M3, would buy it, and are just curious about what the car can do and acting all naive. Then they turn around and start throwing out all these 335 stats about tuning and 0-60, 1/4 mile times, how much it would cost to mod the 335, and how much cheaper it would be.
Another 335 v M3 thread. Doesn't this ever get old?
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      09-17-2007, 12:33 PM   #21
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You cant even see anything in those videos.
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      09-17-2007, 12:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philbert View Post
Hehe. Only time will tell.
But in this case comparing modded vs Stock is fair because your talking about a 20k or so difference in MSRP.

NO..... Modded vs. Stock is NEVER a fair comparison.
And if you think so race a STI with $6500 in mods and tell me how fair that was to you.
You do not know what the US pricing is so leave that one alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philbert View Post
Plus you get easy gains and much better "tuneability" with a turbo engine as opposed to NA. So I'd say close to triple the price for the same gains on a turbo engine when compared to an NA engine
E46 M3 - VF Enginnering - 520hp/340lbft - $11,000
That's not triple the cost and it's already an M3

You will get easy gains on the 335 by uping the boost but you will also hit a wall very quickly with those small turbos not to mention running out of breath in the higher RPM.
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