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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > horrible knocking noise from engine



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      06-13-2013, 09:19 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by foghat View Post
^ Ya, I feel for you. Hopefully the the shop comes clean (if they in fact do know they ran it without oil) or insurance covers it as part of the accident. Maybe then they'd just give you a new engine vs. writing off? Or maybe not. I dunno.
If the shop that installed the oil cooler does not fess up or agree to pay by Monday morning I would contact an attorney and just get a real opinion on what you should do next...
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      06-13-2013, 10:09 PM   #90
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Dude, what's your angle? My car has 64K, tuned since before 10K. Yeah some parts wear faster and need to be replaced, but that's expected. I get oil analysis done by blackstone labs and the reports show engine wear is all normal and they recommend I can go longer OCI (I do 5K). Overall life of the engine will probably be less, but it sure as hell is going last a lot longer than 75K with proper maintenance, even at 400+ whp.
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This is the funniest post I have read in a long time.... One of my renters is a BMW tech in the Chicagoland area and he has NEVER seen a bearing failure (rod, main or cam) on a 335... Granted he doesnt see too many cars with over 100k on the clock.

Also, just so you know you're 100% wrong about full disclosure regarding used cars...
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Come on. There was probably no mention in those ads that there used to be a door ding or chipped windshield. A seller probably does not disclose that the water pump or hpfp could go at anytime as they bloody suck on this platform. Who sells anything used with full disclosure? Modded or not. Okay, I'm sure some do. Granted if someone asked if was previously modded, I would tell them. But there is no way I am obligated to tell them.

Criminal because I am selling a used car and don't mention it was previously modded or mention what other work may have been done to it. I call bull. If the car is in fine working condition when sold, it is in fine working condition. If it wasn't, then yes, I'd feel there is an obligation to let the seller know (but even then, I doubt I'm legally obligated to tell them). Buyer beware holds true, as a used car shopper, you should be doing your homework and asking the right questions, and getting things inspected.

Please provide any sort of hard proof that mods "seriously shorten lifespan" on this platform. because everything I've seen in these forums would suggest that modding this car (within reason, i.e. fbo +meth) has little ill effect on the lifespan.

Don't get me wrong, I have little doubt certain mods will cause premature wear (outside of having to do plugs and coils and such more frequently), but what exactly that means is unknown at this point. Maybe an unmodded engine goes 300,000 miles vs. 250,000 for a modded one or maybe the modded one goes further because the car had a tune custom made for the car and the owner did not drive it hard very often.

I have read of a number of people here with over 100,000 almost all tune miles who are still running strong. Bottom line is we will probably never know how much a modded car shortens (if it is even is by a measurable amount) the lifespan. To say it will 'seriously shorten' is misleading at best; you may be 100% correct, but at this point there is no way to know and current info would indicate otherwise. And if we end up talking I only get 300,000 miles instead of 400,000, the whole thing kind of becomes moot anyways.

And in the OPs case, it is pretty obvious if the car wasn't making the noise before the accident, that either the accident or the shop caused this problem.
OK... I'm used to kicking the hornets nest, sometimes you get stung.

Foghat, looks like you're right, fucked up as it is, a quick look through disclosure law and sure enough. Only required to disclose; Flood, rebuild, or salvage. So you're correct, per the legal requirement. Guess it would just come down to a person being honorable, doing the right thing.

Buyer beware indeed...

As for the rest? I'm not working an angle, that statement doesn't make sense, I have nothing to gain one way or another.

The notion that modding an engine has no effect on durability and long term survival is disingenuous. Higher HP = more stress = more heat. It's not guess work, this is fact.

Increases via mods that include improved cooling, etc. can go a long ways to mitigating these stresses and there's a few here who have addressed this as the OP was trying to address it. But many do not, and function under this delusion of power for free because someone on a forum says "yeah they're safe"...
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      06-13-2013, 10:45 PM   #91
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The notion that modding an engine has no effect on durability and long term survival is disingenuous. Higher HP = more stress = more heat. It's not guess work, this is fact.
Not disagreeing, nor am I stating there are no long-term ill effects from doing certain mods. Just saying that you stating modding will 'seriously shorten lifespan' is what is disingenuous.

We just don't know what the long-term effect of running tunes and such will be on this platform - assuming by long term we are talking beyond 150,000 or so miles. We are finding that bmw over-engineered this engine/drive train and, I suspect, could have likely run a lot more power from the factory if they wanted. And like I noted, depending out how things play out, it could be moot anyways if the mileage numbers turn out to be high enough.

I'd suspect an argument could be made that running a pro-tune specific to your car, climate, gas etc, is probably better than running the canned tune - when not in boost. And really, unless you are racing, you aren't in boost (over factory levels) that often - in the grand scheme of things. So who is to say, having a safer tune, better cooling, better flowing exhaust, etc isn't enough to maybe offset the increased wear from running higher than factory boost levels from time to time? Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

And as an aside, while I believe in being as honest as is reasonable when selling something used - you think it is fucked up that it is buyer beware when buying used. Can you imagine how fucked up things would be if you could be sued because you forgot to disclose something (even if the car was in perfect working order) or if the car literally broke as the buyer was driving it home just by pure coincidental bad timing?
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      06-14-2013, 04:06 AM   #92
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Your engine was starved of oil. No question. It has nothing to do with mods. 75K is nothing and over-modded engines don't fail gradually like this; they fail spectacularly by throwing rods. Unless you heard the rod knock before you had the a accident, it's not just a coincidence that it happened when you first picked it up. You're engine was starved of oil either as result of the accident or by a mistake made during the repair.

Get the accident oil cooler flow tested. If it works, then it was the repair. Someone screwed up. Have the codes scanned independently. If there's nothing there, scan the date (odometer mileage?) for when the codes were last cleared (don't know if that's possible). Don't let them pin it on you. You will need to get agressive with these guys if they won't own up to botching the repair.

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      06-14-2013, 08:07 AM   #93
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This is a prime example of why you DON'T take your car to the insurance company's recommended shop. The give you "suggested shops" because they are the LOWEST cost and bidder. My friend did this and the entire car was put together with rep parts. The bumpers grills were a solid piece, radiator was repaired not replaced. They align themselves to save money for the insurer.

They can't force you into a shop because that's known as steerage and illegal.

Do yourself a favor and go to a reputable repair shop next time and NEVER take the recommendation. By law you can go ANYWHERE.

As for the motor, this can be construed as part of the original peril. You got into accident>shop repairs car> car is still broken. The insurer will have to cover the motor. They may seek action against the shop if it isn't corrected.
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      06-14-2013, 08:36 AM   #94
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Hopefully, this is the direction the shop is going with it. It is in their best interest to have the insurance company cover the engine as it creates more revenue for them, I would think. If it gets put on me, I am going to have to fight like he!! with someone which isn't good for anyone.

I have INPA on my laptop so I will pull codes and see what's there. Hopefully the car logged some useful data.
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      06-14-2013, 04:42 PM   #95
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not 100% yet but, sounds like insurance is going to pay for a new/used engine to be installed, unless it's too expensive then they will total it out. But still in a holding pattern until Tuesday.
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      06-18-2013, 10:08 AM   #96
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Update, insurance is going to cover an engine replacement with a used motor from LKQ they said it has less miles than my current motor. Engine is to be delivered tomorrow and estimate 2 weeks to completion.

Eurowise will do the work, they seem to be a very reputable shop in charlotte.
BMW suggested a flywheel and clutch replacement? Not sure how they know since they claimed they pushed it in out of the shop and never put it on the lift...
Might be the right time to do since they will have it torn apart any suggestions?

Not sure how I feel about the whole thing but it is what it is I guess.
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      06-18-2013, 12:40 PM   #97
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It couldn't have been a crimped line that caused this. You can completely block the oil cooler, hell you could completely clog up the filter and your car will simply bypass these and allow uncooled, unfiltered oil to flow with zero problems. There have been internal oil system pressure bypass/relief valves on virtually every engine that I've ever seen, they work to bypass the filter (or cooler) in case of a blockage. Really cold days when the oil is super thick and not flowing freely through the filter are an example, the rationale of every major manufacturer is it's better to have cold, thick oil circulating than a complete or partial blockage.

Your shop probably ran it without any oil or without enough oil. Happens all the time and engines are very sensitive to this.

I worked at a racing full service shop for years. Whether it was a stock honda with 50k miles or a supercharged camaro with 700hp and 190k miles, virtually every engine failure could be traced back to oil or coolant being empty, low, or not circulating. That causes parts to overheat (oil or coolant cooled components) and metal on metal contact (bearings) that is never intended to happen, ever.

Good luck OP.
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      06-18-2013, 04:56 PM   #98
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Update, insurance is going to cover an engine replacement with a used motor from LKQ they said it has less miles than my current motor. Engine is to be delivered tomorrow and estimate 2 weeks to completion.

Eurowise will do the work, they seem to be a very reputable shop in charlotte.
BMW suggested a flywheel and clutch replacement? Not sure how they know since they claimed they pushed it in out of the shop and never put it on the lift...
Might be the right time to do since they will have it torn apart any suggestions?

Not sure how I feel about the whole thing but it is what it is I guess.
The shop shouldnt really charge you any extra labor to install the new clutch/flywheel so I would...
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      06-19-2013, 01:31 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by james008 View Post
Update, insurance is going to cover an engine replacement with a used motor from LKQ they said it has less miles than my current motor. Engine is to be delivered tomorrow and estimate 2 weeks to completion.

Eurowise will do the work, they seem to be a very reputable shop in charlotte.
BMW suggested a flywheel and clutch replacement? Not sure how they know since they claimed they pushed it in out of the shop and never put it on the lift...
Might be the right time to do since they will have it torn apart any suggestions?

Not sure how I feel about the whole thing but it is what it is I guess.
That's good news on the motor. Strange that insurance picked it up so easily considering it was most likely the fault of the shop but who cares. And it's always a good idea to do the clutch/flywheel when the engine is out. It's much easier and last thing you want to do is to change the clutch right after you've installed the motor. The flywheel could be resurfaced as opposed to replaced but if they said replace it, I wouldn't complain.

You should next consider diminished value. Car will now be listed as having an engine swap and could be deemed less valuable as result. Rules vary by state. Educate yourself on what is possible in your state and when the time is right, bring it up with your insurance company.
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      06-19-2013, 03:20 PM   #100
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You should next consider diminished value. Car will now be listed as having an engine swap and could be deemed less valuable as result. Rules vary by state. Educate yourself on what is possible in your state and when the time is right, bring it up with your insurance company.
Most states do not require the insurance company to pay for diminution in value, so your not going to get that. Georgia is the state I know of that allows it.
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      06-19-2013, 07:40 PM   #101
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Saw the engine today, not crazy about it. It's an 07 with 62,000 miles on it. comes with 12 month parts and labor warranty. Shop that is doing install has done 4 engines this year on 335i's and is just finishing up a 7 series.

I am going to look into the laws in NC about engine swaps and how it affects title. I think at this point I am going to drive it for the remainder of the summer then trade it in. If I decide on this route I am not going to put any extra money into the car.

I am worried I put a clutch in maybe a water pump, then the turbos start to go, or oil housing gasket, it seems once cars get to around the 80,000 to 100,000 miles there is a laundry list of things that may or may not arise.

I don't think I can claim diminished value since the fender bender was my fault, even though that probably was not the root of the engine failure.
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      06-19-2013, 07:49 PM   #102
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its not rod knock. rod knock goes away when the engine is reved. sounds like a valvetrain issue. there may be a lifter or a rocker out of place. you def have a major issue though. im thinking rocker since no CEL
Holy shittttt. With posts like MrRager here on the forum, no wonder people take forum advice with a grain of salt. Jeeeezus! MrRager here has probably never cracked open the bottom end of an engine. Rod knock going AWAY as RPM's rise!?
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      06-19-2013, 08:19 PM   #103
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I might be wrong but isn't an 09 a N55 engine and an 07 a N54 engine?
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      06-19-2013, 08:32 PM   #104
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I might be wrong but isn't an 09 a N55 engine and an 07 a N54 engine?
Correct you are wrong, n54 till mid 2010 maybe even 2011.

Rod knock was real bad when feathering throttle, and in higher rpms, but quiet when on constant throttle or cruising.

So far the list of causes is:
1. Body shop didn't put enough oil in after oil cooler install.
2. Metal shavings from oil cooler washed into engine.
3. Something happened during fender bender causing oil starvation.
4. Walnuts from valve cleaning got in engine from 6 months ago (unlikely)
5. BMW dealership claims mods and driving hard under high boost(duesche bags)
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      06-19-2013, 08:58 PM   #105
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Correct you are wrong, n54 till mid 2010 maybe even 2011.

Rod knock was real bad when feathering throttle, and in higher rpms, but quiet when on constant throttle or cruising.

So far the list of causes is:
1. Body shop didn't put enough oil in after oil cooler install.
2. Metal shavings from oil cooler washed into engine.
3. Something happened during fender bender causing oil starvation.
4. Walnuts from valve cleaning got in engine from 6 months ago (unlikely)
5. BMW dealership claims mods and driving hard under high boost(duesche bags)
When selling a vehicle to either a private individual or a dealer you as the seller are not required to tell them then engine was replaced... Its called buyer beware for a reason so I would not worry about a reduction in the value of your ride. It will however probably show on a carfax due to the claim.

The cause was #1 for sure...
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      06-19-2013, 11:54 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by james008 View Post
Correct you are wrong, n54 till mid 2010 maybe even 2011.

Rod knock was real bad when feathering throttle, and in higher rpms, but quiet when on constant throttle or cruising.

So far the list of causes is:
1. Body shop didn't put enough oil in after oil cooler install.
2. Metal shavings from oil cooler washed into engine.
3. Something happened during fender bender causing oil starvation.
4. Walnuts from valve cleaning got in engine from 6 months ago (unlikely)
5. BMW dealership claims mods and driving hard under high boost(duesche bags)
1. Most likely, but it's not that they didn't add enough. They drained it as one would expect when swapping an oil cooler and then someone went to move the car and didn't take notice of the no oil pressure warning lights. Damage done in only minutes.
2. Unlikely. You'd have lots of grey oil, shavings in the oil pickup strainer, oil filter and in the pan.
3. Unlikely.
4. Nope.
5. Nope.
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      07-10-2013, 12:15 PM   #107
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Update: replacement engine from LKQ was put in end of last week, they got everything buttoned up Monday and it wasn't idling well, yesterday 4pm got a call, crankshaft, in the replacement engine, is bent and they will have to start from scratch with another new engine...

I attempted to give them a piece of my mind in hopes they pick a engine from a car with rear end or side damage instead of front. Not sure how much say I get since it's not my money but it is my car.
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      07-10-2013, 12:19 PM   #108
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Update: replacement engine from LKQ was put in end of last week, they got everything buttoned up Monday and it wasn't idling well, yesterday 4pm got a call, crankshaft, in the replacement engine, is bent and they will have to start from scratch with another new engine...

I attempted to give them a piece of my mind in hopes they pick a engine from a car with rear end or side damage instead of front. Not sure how much say I get since it's not my money but it is my car.
Wow, that sounds awful. A lot like the kind of luck I usually have. Hopefully they get it sorted out soon. Good luck!
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      07-10-2013, 02:20 PM   #109
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Competition BMW in smithtown NY installed my hybrid turbos and did the same thing to my engine... gave it back with a rod knock, i drove it 18 miles after telling them it was going to blow when I left after they had the car for a week to "fix" the noise I originally heard...

they changed a ton of shit in the head to mask vanos codes the starvation also caused and gave it back with rod knock, than denied warranty or responsibility..

I wouldnt go any where near COMPETITION BMW IN SMITHTOWN NY... not to buy, lease, look at a car, service a car, or take a dump in their toilet...

Shops now a days are heartless and all about $, corporate or not....

its sad...

I had to buy a replacement motor which i got from OEM PARTS ONLY on ebay, installed after a month due to turbo rebuild etc, and the crank is damaged and bent and he is NOT covering his engine... crank wobbles n car is screwed basically, runs fine but for how long? no idea

I will be visiting cali and this guy shortly... hows that for bad luck?

Youre car should be fine with motor swap, i wouldnt sweat it
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      07-10-2013, 03:07 PM   #110
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Update: replacement engine from LKQ was put in end of last week, they got everything buttoned up Monday and it wasn't idling well, yesterday 4pm got a call, crankshaft, in the replacement engine, is bent and they will have to start from scratch with another new engine...

I attempted to give them a piece of my mind in hopes they pick a engine from a car with rear end or side damage instead of front. Not sure how much say I get since it's not my money but it is my car.
Wow! That sucks. Amazed they would go to all that effort without some verification of the engine's health. I've only ever bought one motor by itself but it came with full leak down numbers including photos of the gauge connected to each cylinder. Granted its not so easy to conduct a leak down if accessories or other required systems are damaged on the donor car.
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