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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Rotrex N52 forged internals. 450+whp.



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      06-17-2013, 07:00 PM   #23
ObiwanChen
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I HATE someone just saying "buy a 335"
In my mind, tuning a car means trying to push the car to its limit. I think a N52 with 300hp will be much more impresive than a N54 with 400hp. So for me, it doesn't matter wether I have a 300hp car or 400hp car, instead, is that possible to push the car further with affordable resource matters.
If you just want hp, you can always saving $ and trade in you XXX for a YYY untill you have a bugatti. In this route, you don't need to mod you car at all, it's waste of $.

However, I really doubt the N52 can be S/Ced, as it has been stated many times, the engine itself isn't strong enough to handle boost. My concern as well as many others is not how long will the blower last but how long will our engine last.
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      06-17-2013, 07:13 PM   #24
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OP has modded SATURN, doubts 450whp 335i exists, thinks N52 is somehow "beefier" than N54.

OP has gone full retard. 3 times. In one thread.

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      06-17-2013, 07:27 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by CombatNinja View Post
The single biggest flaw in his logic is that it would be cheaper to add forced induction to an N52 (at a cost of $8,000+, mind you) than it would be to just take a bath on trading it for a 335i. This has been beaten to death. There will never be a viable forced induction application for the N52/1 engines. The very concept is stupid and self-defeating. Even if some company managed to bring one to market, hypothetically, for $6000 no one would buy it because it makes no sense. Here would be the thought process of someone stupid enough to do this: "Let me spend many thousands of dollars to add forced induction to this expensive German engine that was never designed for it all to get to a power figure that is the same as (or probably less than) a bog standard 335i. Which I could just upgrade to for many dollars less than the cost of this hypothetical supercharger kit. Oh shit, you mean I could be at 400+ whp for a couple of thousand in a 335i?"
+1. Trade up and be done with it.
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      06-17-2013, 07:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObiwanChen
I HATE someone just saying "buy a 335"
In my mind, tuning a car means trying to push the car to its limit. I think a N52 with 300hp will be much more impresive than a N54 with 400hp. So for me, it doesn't matter wether I have a 300hp car or 400hp car, instead, is that possible to push the car further with affordable resource matters.
If you just want hp, you can always saving $ and trade in you XXX for a YYY untill you have a bugatti. In this route, you don't need to mod you car at all, it's waste of $.

However, I really doubt the N52 can be S/Ced, as it has been stated many times, the engine itself isn't strong enough to handle boost. My concern as well as many others is not how long will the blower last but how long will our engine last.
I see no reason why you can hate someone for giving that answer. Many of us, myself included have modded our cars with every bolt on possible. I'm probably getting between 275_280 at the flywheel and I'm happy. I know that adding a supercharger from a company that has very poor reputation and business practices is not something I want to deal with. Instead of buying a 335 I decided to buy a car I didn't mind blowing up. I bought an e30 and am building a turbo kit. Even if AA built a supercharger I'd have to think twice about getting one.
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      06-17-2013, 07:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObiwanChen View Post
I HATE someone just saying "buy a 335"
In my mind, tuning a car means trying to push the car to its limit. I think a N52 with 300hp will be much more impresive than a N54 with 400hp. So for me, it doesn't matter wether I have a 300hp car or 400hp car, instead, is that possible to push the car further with affordable resource matters.
If you just want hp, you can always saving $ and trade in you XXX for a YYY untill you have a bugatti. In this route, you don't need to mod you car at all, it's waste of $.

However, I really doubt the N52 can be S/Ced, as it has been stated many times, the engine itself isn't strong enough to handle boost. My concern as well as many others is not how long will the blower last but how long will our engine last.
Dyno your car already and show us what you got going on...How does it feel with all the mods?
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      06-17-2013, 08:05 PM   #28
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OP has modded SATURN, doubts 450whp 335i exists, thinks N52 is somehow "beefier" than N54.

OP has gone full retard. 3 times. In one thread.

I just laughed so hard I spit beer on my monitor. Thanks for this!

Honestly, being original isn't always the best way to get something done, that's why so many people do what's tried and true.
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      06-17-2013, 08:31 PM   #29
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Nothing against the OP but it was brought up.
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      06-17-2013, 08:58 PM   #30
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^^^ that was a good one!! If ever a perfect time to cue that one up!! hahaha touché!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObiwanChen View Post
I HATE someone just saying "buy a 335"
In my mind, tuning a car means trying to push the car to its limit. I think a N52 with 300hp will be much more impresive than a N54 with 400hp. So for me, it doesn't matter wether I have a 300hp car or 400hp car, instead, is that possible to push the car further with affordable resource matters.
If you just want hp, you can always saving $ and trade in you XXX for a YYY untill you have a bugatti. In this route, you don't need to mod you car at all, it's waste of $.

However, I really doubt the N52 can be S/Ced, as it has been stated many times, the engine itself isn't strong enough to handle boost. My concern as well as many others is not how long will the blower last but how long will our engine last.
Good point...its a matter of being ration I suppose, the risk definitely doesn't seem the outweigh the benefits.
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Originally Posted by madmanhiker View Post
+1. Trade up and be done with it.
I'll definitely look into the modded 335s a bit more.
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Originally Posted by Johnny D View Post
I see no reason why you can hate someone for giving that answer. Many of us, myself included have modded our cars with every bolt on possible. I'm probably getting between 275_280 at the flywheel and I'm happy. I know that adding a supercharger from a company that has very poor reputation and business practices is not something I want to deal with. Instead of buying a 335 I decided to buy a car I didn't mind blowing up. I bought an e30 and am building a turbo kit. Even if AA built a supercharger I'd have to think twice about getting one.
Your car seems to perform great and you got the exact mods I'd like to try out here shortly, you seem content with it as well, I wish there was someone local with an alike set-up for me to try out
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Honestly, being original isn't always the best way to get something done, that's why so many people do what's tried and true.
So true! ....Idk how many times I've learned this the hard way. Every experience has been a great one though, sometimes a risk comes with a reward.
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OP has modded SATURN, doubts 450whp 335i exists, thinks N52 is somehow "beefier" than N54.

OP has gone full retard. 3 times. In one thread.

Lol Combat Ninja.

I didn't mean to get you going...I'm sorry Combat Ninja. Didn't mean to shit on your opinion, if that's what you got out of it. Was a good topic for me, got me through a Monday....If I ever meet you, we can have a drink, on me (if your of age)


If you all feel it was

Apologies fellas, we'll see what goes down either way, who knows 335 might be the best bet. M3 could be the best bet. Hell, I could wake up with a bag of sense and just get the damn Corvette already. Good talk either way...I'm sure I got some gears rolling.

I appreciate the input guys....sarcasm n all, its what makes a forum a forum.
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      06-17-2013, 09:10 PM   #31
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Dyno your car already and show us what you got going on...How does it feel with all the mods?
I'm pretty happy with all I got, I can feel the car pulls harder on highway and a 1.5 L/100km lower fuel consumption for now. But the cloest 4wd dyno I found is still 50km away from my place and I'm quite busy these days dealing with the midterm exams so it might need to take awhile to be done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny D View Post
I see no reason why you can hate someone for giving that answer. Many of us, myself included have modded our cars with every bolt on possible. I'm probably getting between 275_280 at the flywheel and I'm happy. I know that adding a supercharger from a company that has very poor reputation and business practices is not something I want to deal with. Instead of buying a 335 I decided to buy a car I didn't mind blowing up. I bought an e30 and am building a turbo kit. Even if AA built a supercharger I'd have to think twice about getting one.
sorry for my choice of word. Not real hate, I just don't like people throw that out everytime they saw people discussing how to get more power from N52.

For many people, wanting more power cannot be the reason to buy another car, espetially when you need to trade in your current car for it.
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      06-17-2013, 11:21 PM   #32
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I'm pretty happy with all I got, I can feel the car pulls harder on highway and a 1.5 L/100km lower fuel consumption for now. But the cloest 4wd dyno I found is still 50km away from my place and I'm quite busy these days dealing with the midterm exams so it might need to take awhile to be done.




sorry for my choice of word. Not real hate, I just don't like people throw that out everytime they saw people discussing how to get more power from N52.

For many people, wanting more power cannot be the reason to buy another car, espetially when you need to trade in your current car for it.
Bingo.

But that's blasphemy.

Especially in the *GASP* NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications sub-forum.

Good night ladies and gentlemen

I will say this though...torque made by the 335 guys leaves even the lightly modded M3 guys a bit envious >.<
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      06-18-2013, 09:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dom_J View Post
^^^ that was a good one!! If ever a perfect time to cue that one up!! hahaha touché!


Good point...its a matter of being ration I suppose, the risk definitely doesn't seem the outweigh the benefits.

I'll definitely look into the modded 335s a bit more.

Your car seems to perform great and you got the exact mods I'd like to try out here shortly, you seem content with it as well, I wish there was someone local with an alike set-up for me to try out

So true! ....Idk how many times I've learned this the hard way. Every experience has been a great one though, sometimes a risk comes with a reward.


Lol Combat Ninja.

I didn't mean to get you going...I'm sorry Combat Ninja. Didn't mean to shit on your opinion, if that's what you got out of it. Was a good topic for me, got me through a Monday....If I ever meet you, we can have a drink, on me (if your of age)


If you all feel it was

Apologies fellas, we'll see what goes down either way, who knows 335 might be the best bet. M3 could be the best bet. Hell, I could wake up with a bag of sense and just get the damn Corvette already. Good talk either way...I'm sure I got some gears rolling.

I appreciate the input guys....sarcasm n all, its what makes a forum a forum.
Many folks focus on SC to add power that is useless without additional mods such as LSD, suspension, tires, camber plates, etc. I am refering to E9x vehicles. I can tell you that a lighter lower hp car performs better handling wise than a high power heavy car. For example Cayman vs Camaro or Mustang, you pick engines.

Take your $$$$ reserved for N52 SC experiment and instead gut the car and replace all body panels with CF including roof. There is your recipe for high performance machine with solid chassis, suspension, brakes and reliable engine.
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      06-18-2013, 10:08 PM   #34
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Just posting something I found... Maybe the biggest reason not to test supercharging on an engine you payed for.

http://www.***********.com/content.p...feet-of-torque


if those engines designed for forced induction are failing, i would be careful. Even though it looks like the trouble is from BMW deciding to run higher temperatures to increase turbocharger efficiency, i wouldnt mess around with that

EDIT: Sorry about the link.. maybe you can google for it
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      06-19-2013, 10:39 AM   #35
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Thanks for that input....and yes, you are thinking along the lines of what I am contemplating. Tuning will in fact be the largest hurdle...I love the 335i so much due to that very reason, there IS a mass support from the aftermarket when it comes to "tuners," the experience is there. I won't argue that one.

$15k is the budget....can you post links to 3 threads with 450+ whp 335i's please? I mean ones you believe in, were done right by you.

I appreciate your input, its really easy to say buy a 335 clearly not taking into account that we are nearly doubling it's power too(along with the stipulations mentioned earlier), in an effort to shoot past 400+whp. The turbos will be replaced, the manifold will be replaced. Anything related to the stock 300hp......will be replaced. You know exactly what that will cost. C'mon, its not cheap.

I'd be starting with a platform a bit stronger including a decent block, slightly beefier drivetrain.

ditto. >.<



C'mon...you knew what I was getting at if I wanted to play that game:

(1) Non-Z06 C6 vette $30k
(1) Cam $1k
(1) Blower $6k
(1) HPTuners software/tuning $free.99

Take a guess at those HP numbers

RIP to 98.9% of everything I come in contact with on my daily commute. Clearly, there is no more logical set-up than that to be had as of today. Clearly, that has the most logic for 450+(600+) ;-) ...but where's the fun in that?? *DISCLAIMER* IMO lol



Thank you for your input Andrew, you probably know better than most, I know which side of the fence you are on as well

Half of my "logical" reasoning behind wanting to use the Rotrex blower was due to the amazing amount of pressure it can put out vs heat. Eaton style blowers and turbos generate a ridiculous amount of heat, no way around it. I don't know if anyone can post intake temps of what 335s are doing w/an intercooler mod but I've seen Rotrex blowers keep intake temps as low as 100* back to back to back pulling with an efficient air-to-air type of set-up. They really are state of the art.

At 15 psi could be another story though, I won't lie...only the hondas boys have took the Journey...and as always, they've got a few K-Swaps making 400+ whp like it came out a cereal box ready for action with the Rotrex blower.



We do this in the name of horses man, it will be beating...time...and time.....and time again. We'll see how it goes. Stay tuned.



Thank you for that input, can you please provide me 3 threads to what it took for those members to get 450whp...I keep hearing it, but those aren't exactly the threads I seem to catch when I head over to the dark side....a few clicks away


This is just me fellas, everyone won't take the same path, I didn't see the value of the e90's dropping the way they have been(across the board)...to hit the "reset" button and drop a hefty down payment.....just to tear it apart, just doesn't feel right. Not when I have a 300whp Tupperware mobile readily available to terrorize shit in the name of cheap thrills.


**EDIT**

As you can see....I get bored at work, and I'm passionate about this motorsports thing so I like to talk lol(if you like to read non-sense)....I'm 28 and though I'm not super old(nor young), I started doing this in a Toyota Tercel, JDM swapped a 4E-FTE starlet motor that put down 165whp and ran a 14.7 when 15's were considered fast lol. I did that with an FMU and a S-AFC(you remember those)....to single cam D-Series pushing 350whp+...that's why you must excuse me if I don't feed into the weak motors concept as much. It's all in your tune.

For the record, YES, I have boosted one bimmer, an older 318ti(4cyl), started w/a eaton s/c, had it tuned at VAC, ran great....it just had no balls overall, couldn't even get into the 14's...tried to up the boost(no real cooling mods), made more heat, just couldn't hang, it blew after about 8 months. Threw an S50 swap in with with a ebay turbo kit...couldn't keep those rear wheels planted lol amazing little car, I was just helping out a friend but I learned a bit. I also know these engine can take a bit of boost.

After my fully built Evo from Japan that made 450+ awd power, I'm a bit bitter with turbo set-ups(even those turbo'd from the factory)....there's just too many gremlins to lurk here and there. Blowing up my LSJ motor in my Ion has by far been my toughest learning curve...
They do put out great hp but they also make a lot of low end power which is great if the engine can take it. I personally do not think this one can take more than 6 psi with a Rotrex C30 blower.
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      06-19-2013, 08:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
Many folks focus on SC to add power that is useless without additional mods such as LSD, suspension, tires, camber plates, etc. I am refering to E9x vehicles. I can tell you that a lighter lower hp car performs better handling wise than a high power heavy car. For example Cayman vs Camaro or Mustang, you pick engines.

Take your $$$$ reserved for N52 SC experiment and instead gut the car and replace all body panels with CF including roof. There is your recipe for high performance machine with solid chassis, suspension, brakes and reliable engine.
Couldn't have said it better...that's a big reason I'm not sure about going with a E9X M3 V8...its a pretty heavy chassis for decent power to the wheels but all of my buddies aren't getting over 10-13mpg through the daily commute. Gas guzzler just in a effort to stay out of it's own way.

I'm also a firm believer in it's never been about the horses, more so the chariot in which they pull...I definitely can't sacrifice my comfort in the name of performance though. I've also managed to build a 4.0 cu ft MDF box to house a dd9515 in the trunk of my bimmer >.< talk about added weight, but I need my bass. I'm thinking of grabbing a 318 or E30 chassis though....

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Just posting something I found... Maybe the biggest reason not to test supercharging on an engine you payed for.

There are companies that stress test engines for OEM's. One of these companies has been testing the N20 apparently. The advice given is not to go beyond Stage 2 on the N20 which means a slightly more aggressive tune on the factory turbocharger. Why? The N20 head apparently cracks at around 331 pound-feet of torque. That is not exactly a whole lot of torque in the turbo tuning game especially considering the motor puts out an underrated 258 pound-feet from the factory.

Apparently the engine is just running very hot and multiple heat cycles are creating problems. BMW behind the scenes is supposedly trying to correct the issue. For whatever reason BMW seems to have a reputation for problems with new motors. S54 bearings, S65 bearings, and the next BMW new motor issue looks to be the N20 head cracking.


if those engines designed for forced induction are failing, i would be careful. Even though it looks like the trouble is from BMW deciding to run higher temperatures to increase turbocharger efficiency, i wouldnt mess around with that
That's a great link, and actually I'm not surprised, if I've learned anything over the years....is to stay clear of first generation engines on any platform, it's just inevitable.......ask me about buying GM's first eaton supercharged 4-cyl

All of the "we've put this engine through XYZ rigorous test and trails to bring you dependability" bs.....it's done in the real world by the consumer....me & you. They then respond and address the most relevant while hoping there's only a few bad lemons that come to the surface.

On the other end of the stick...I was drawn to this N52 engine in the bimmer just out of the fact that this N52 has been put through the paces a while, a nice continuation of the S52 and that's across the entire planet bimmers are driven...I agree though, definitely was not designed with boost in mind. We boosted a buddies S52 to 12psi, it was holding up well before I left but I need to get an update.

Key factor in the article though. Heat was a major factor, heat is the no.1 enemy of forced induction systems, turbos give plenty of it, & its needed to generate the power. Maybe a simple block mod, better performing intercooler will come out in version 2 of the N20.
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They do put out great hp but they also make a lot of low end power which is great if the engine can take it. I personally do not think this one can take more than 6 psi with a Rotrex C30 blower.
The low end tq could definitely be a limiting factor...honestly anything past 250ft lb would probably bring the tranny problems out full force.

Another key feature that could work "with" vs "against" could also be the linear application of power it delivers. The progressive style is either really liked by most of the tuners or really hated due to the delay of the power because its obviously based on how fast your going. For us, the delay could relieve further stress on the tranny. But it'd probably deliver a decent amount of power early on.

I gotta keep reminding myself this was supposed to be my convenient worry free vehicle that I bought because I could take it anywhere in the world and get by worry free!
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      06-19-2013, 08:06 PM   #37
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I won't say go buy a 335i, but one out of warranty pushing 400-450hp to the wheels is easily done with a tune, basic bolt on's and some e85. Reliably as well. I don't have any issues with mine at these levels. Just wanted to clarify the Ops first post.
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      06-19-2013, 11:42 PM   #38
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I won't say go buy a 335i, but one out of warranty pushing 400-450hp to the wheels is easily done with a tune, basic bolt on's and some e85. Reliably as well. I don't have any issues with mine at these levels. Just wanted to clarify the Ops first post.
Thanks for posting up your experiences, I do have E85 readily available as well, that's good to know. I'm definitely not opposed to the 335, just finding the right one at the right price @ the right dealership (I hate trading in)
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      06-23-2013, 10:50 AM   #39
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I wish I had the option to just pay a few K's and trade in for a 335i or let alone a M3, but here in Thailand car taxes are 328% so I paid a good 100k$ for a USED 325i, upgrading to an 335i would easily be another 50k$.

Buying a used M3 is about 220k$, so I personally would really love to get more power out of the N52.

For the non-believers: one2car. com/BMW_SERIES%203/C20550214 -- Price is 4,490,000 THB which is 144,210.81 USD

Even e46 m3's from 2001 cost you at least 50k$
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      06-23-2013, 01:19 PM   #40
Dom_J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmnatz View Post
I wish I had the option to just pay a few K's and trade in for a 335i or let alone a M3, but here in Thailand car taxes are 328% so I paid a good 100k$ for a USED 325i, upgrading to an 335i would easily be another 50k$.

Buying a used M3 is about 220k$, so I personally would really love to get more power out of the N52.

For the non-believers: one2car. com/BMW_SERIES%203/C20550214 -- Price is 4,490,000 THB which is 144,210.81 USD

Even e46 m3's from 2001 cost you at least 50k$
we should all be a bit more grateful....that's nuts.
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LAST 24 MONTHS = E90 328i LCI xdrive *SOLD* / E36 328is Because Race car / 11-Volvo S40 T5 *SOLD* / 96-Japanese Evo 4 *SOLD* / 04-Saturn Ion Redline *SOLD*/ 10-V6 Camaro *SOLD* / E90 LCI 335XI aaaand I think I found a winner

...do it right or do it twice(or more)
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      06-23-2013, 01:33 PM   #41
mapleridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmnatz View Post
I wish I had the option to just pay a few K's and trade in for a 335i or let alone a M3, but here in Thailand car taxes are 328% so I paid a good 100k$ for a USED 325i, upgrading to an 335i would easily be another 50k$.

Buying a used M3 is about 220k$, so I personally would really love to get more power out of the N52.

For the non-believers: one2car. com/BMW_SERIES%203/C20550214 -- Price is 4,490,000 THB which is 144,210.81 USD

Even e46 m3's from 2001 cost you at least 50k$
I made this point before. Superchargers are good for countries where import duties and taxes are insane such as Thailand and numerous other countries where import duties are 100%.

Nonetheless, if the tranny cant handle it, it is still pointless.
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