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      07-13-2013, 02:25 AM   #265
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No, no... the exception is this:

I'm very much alive (thanks God) and I definitely saw Alfa Romeo winning the DTM championship against the german brands back in 1993 with flying colors and a carbonfiber chassis!!!


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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Oh please. No one actually living has seen an Alfa win a race.

That's like saying you should eat Gouda because the Dutch are such a dominant power.

Alfa has a strong history, but also has spent the last fifty or so years largely building forgettable products. Feel free to bring up the one or two exceptions.

Now, all of you seeing this will be exceptions... DTM 1993 Nordschleife - Alfa Romeo Victory



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      07-13-2013, 03:25 AM   #266
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Like I said, I've driven and enjoyed recent Alfas, but claiming their racing history as a plus is a bit like a Bentley driver saying they bought it for their strong racing history. Or Jaguar for that matter.
Think we talking past one another

I mentioned Alfa's numerous wins in various formats in response to Alfa not being well know.. Together with the fact that they over 100 years old. So its hardly an unknown brand. Thats the point I was trying to get at.

As for the ETCC that Alfa won in 2003.. That was in response to your comment that no one alive has seen Alfa race victories.. Well unless you 10 years old or younger you were very much alive while they were winning races

And I mentioned asking the German BMW friends purely because it was largely BMW and Alfa in that racing class that Alfa won.

Not here to fight. But if you make a comment like no one alive has seen race victories from Alfa, prepare to back it up or be proved wrong

So like to debate.. But not on here to fight..

Cheers
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      07-13-2013, 03:43 AM   #267
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In the name of the historical thruth I must say that the chassis of the Alfa Romeo 155 V6 Ti was not actually made of carbonfiber but made of steel and it was the same of the road going Alfa 155. However, all the car body was made of carbonfiber:


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After a brief and not particularly successful Indy racing campaign, Alfa Corse returned its attention to touring cars in the early 1990s. The 1992 season showed that it was a good decision as the newly developed 155 SuperTurismo won 17 of a possible 20 races in the Italian championship. These highly encouraging results inspired Alfa Romeo to look abroad for stronger competition. They found it in Germany where the local manufacturers competed in the 'Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft' (DTM). Fortunately for the Italian newcomers, the regulations for touring car racing were extensively revised for 1993.

From 1993 onwards touring car races would be run under two separate classes; FIA Class 1 and Class 2. The main distinction between the two was the level of modifications required. The Class 2 cars had to stay very close to the homologated road cars while there was considerable freedom to develop the Class 1 machines. Not surprisingly Class 2 was adapted by most of the national championship as it had the lowest threshold. It was also fitting that DTM, the most competitive of all touring car championships, incorporated the much more extreme Class 1 regulations. Alfa Romeo set out to develop a 155 racer for each of the two classes.

While the basic shape of the street car had to be retained, the Alfa Corse engineers were given almost free reign for the rest. The absolute star of the DTM 155 was the drivetrain, which combined a high revving V6 engine with the newly developed Q4 four-wheel drive system. Displacing just 2.5 litre, the all alloy, Naturally Aspirated engine produced a staggering 400 bhp at 11500 rpm. That was as much as the SuperTurismo raced in 1992 and that had Turbocharged engine. The engine was mounted ahead of the front axle and the six-speed gearbox was fitted separately in the middle of the car for better weight balance. About a third of the power was sent to the front wheels with rest going to the rear.

To comply with the regulations the steel unitary chassis of the road going 155 was retained. All of the panels also looked 'stock' but they were all made from carbon fibre. Except for a wing on the rear deck all other aerodynamics had to be fitted below the height of the wheel hub. This resulted in deep side skirts and a very elaborate front bumper. It sported various ducts to channel air to the radiators and also created considerable downforce. The standard air-intakes in the grille were used to feed the six intake trumpets. Inside the car little reminded of the road car; the single seat was mounted virtually in the middle of the car alongside the gearbox.

Alfa Corse entered two 155 V6 TIs for works drivers Alessandro Nanini and Nicola Larini. Both of these Italians had previously raced in F1 and in 1992 were responsible for Alfa's domination in the Italian SuperTurismo championship From the start of the season it was obvious that the new Alfa Romeo was the creme of the crop. The main opposition came from the various Mercedes-Benz teams that campaigned a 190 E that was a development of car campaigned in the previous seasons. With 12 victories out of a possible 20, the Alfa Corse team dominated. Ten of these were won by Larini, who was crowned champion at the end of the season.

The crushing defeat inspired Mercedes-Benz / AMG to develop a brand new DTM racer based on the recently introduced C Class. A year later Opel also joined the fun with a Calibra DTM car. The Alfa Corse engineers also continued development of the 155. First the standard gearbox was replaced by a sequential 'box and eventually a F1-style paddle-operated semi-automatic gearbox was fitted. The engine was constantly worked on. In its final guise had a wider 90-degree V-angle and produced a staggering 490 bhp at 12,000 rpm. More subtle were the various adjustments to the aerodynamics over the years.

The 155 V6 TI was campaigned up to 1996 when the DTM was replaced by the newly created International Touring Car Championship (ITC). In 1994 the new Mercedes seemed to have the advantage but Alfa did manage to win a further 11 races. A more consistent performance from the Germans gave them the title. The 1995 version of the 155 suffered from an overkill in electronics, which in an Italian car is never a good thing. Now four seasons old, the considerably lighter and more powerful 155 once again rose to the top. In the second half of the year the Italian machine scored six consecutive victories against the more recent opposition.

At the end of the 1996 season Alfa Romeo and Opel announced their withdrawal from the ITC, which effectively killed off the series. While resulting in great racing and cars the ever spiraling costs brought the DTM/ITC to an end. For Alfa Romeo the DTM had brought great success; the 155 had scored a never equalled 38 victories. It had been a glorious couple of seasons for Alfa Corse as the Class 2 version of the 155 won the national championships in Great Britain and Spain and finished runner up in Italy.

Featured above is one of the original Alfa Romeo 155 V6 TIs campaigned by Alfa Corse in the 1993 season. It is shown in Alfa Romeo's Museo Storico. The specifications listed are for the 1993 version.

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      07-13-2013, 04:32 AM   #268
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A kind of half review of the 4C at Goodwood Festival of Speed that is happening this weekend.. This guy sat shotgun up the Goodwood Hill Climb in the 4C.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/goodw...-tonne-promise

“I swear to you,” says the animated Italian to my left: “even wet, it will weigh less than a tonne. The steering: manual (he means unassisted). Nothing between you and the car. But I’m sorry - I can’t tell you how much the carbon tub costs.”

He shrugs his shoulders, rolls his eyes. If he’s lying, at least he’s bothering to put on a show.

The man in question is Davide Kluzer, PR man for Alfa Romeo. And the car he is talking about – the one I’m riding in, in the direction of the Goodwood hillclimb startline – could just be the most significant new sports car of the last ten years: the Alfa Romeo 4C.

Couldn’t be much else. How many other new mainstream sports cars have come along since the original Lotus Elise, offering such Elise-like promise? But, while the driving will have to wait until later in the year, our first impressions of this new mid-engined welterweight can be formed here and now, under the gaze of the Goodwood crowd.

That crowd throngs around the 4C as we queue up to take the marshall’s flag. Some ask if it’s real. Others how much power there is, and what it’ll cost.

One bloke says he’s got an order in for an early car, and asks politely if he should sell his Porsche 993 to complete on it. Of course he should. The Alfa’s all set to be one of the most acclaimed debuts of this year, and it’s already sold out until the second half of 2014.

To sit in, the 4C’s proportioned more like the aforementioned Lotus than the Porsche Cayman it’s priced against. The sills are wide, the cabin intimate. I’m 6ft 3in, and with the seat right back I’ve just about got enough kneeroom under the dashboard, just about enough headroom under the roof. With a helmet on, my head’s on the rooflining – just as it would be in an Exige.

The lacquered carbon tub speaks of rigidity and lightness before you’ve even turned a wheel. Before I got here, I was thinking Alfa might have overpriced the car, but actually, is there anything else offering structural carbon like this for less than 50k? Answers on a postcard.

We approach the line. Davide buttons the paddleshift TCT box into manual mode and, as the flag drops, gives it the lot. Lordy – there’s plenty of torque.

Alfa won’t say how much just yet, but the whistling 237bhp turbo four snorts through the middle of the rev range with angry potency. Seems like it could rev out a bit more freely, but you can’t argue with the performance level.

The ride’s flat and calm; not stiff by any stretch. There is body movement but it’s quickly, effortlessly controlled: that evident lack of mass and body stiffness presenting again. Should be a good compromise for the road. The steering looks direct but trustworthy. I grab it once we’re stationary again. Blimey, it is unassisted. Lighter than the wheel on an Elise, though.

If all goes according to plan, we’ll have a 4C at our annual Britain’s Best Driver’s Car test this autumn. Here’s my prediction: we’ll say the powertrain could be more special, but it’ll finish top three anyway. This has all the hallmarks of a proper, real-world, reference sports car.

And as is readily apparent from the Goodwood reception, there’s a whole generation of buyers crying out for one of those from Alfa Romeo.
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      07-13-2013, 05:50 AM   #269
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Sold out until summer 14'.
Good for Alfa then.

It is what it is regarding how the car will hold up. I wish them and the cars owners good business and good driving fun.

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      07-13-2013, 07:43 AM   #270
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      07-13-2013, 07:50 AM   #271
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Music to my ears...


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      07-13-2013, 11:45 AM   #272
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Very nice.

I'll concede that AutoDelta wins were impressive. I even watched DTM during the 155 days.

I had in mind more prestigious racing like F1 or LeMans when I said their racing history is irrelevant. Maybe the 4C will help them get back into proper racing. It certainly sounds good.
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      07-13-2013, 03:43 PM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Very nice.

I'll concede that AutoDelta wins were impressive. I even watched DTM during the 155 days.

I had in mind more prestigious racing like F1 or LeMans when I said their racing history is irrelevant. Maybe the 4C will help them get back into proper racing. It certainly sounds good.
If you drove the cars you say you drove and if you watched the motorsport competitions you say you watched you couldn't say the things you say... I'm sorry man, NO way!!!

You see, the Alfa 155 V6 Ti was the greatest ever touring car... you couldn't possibly miss it if you watched DTM in the 90's:


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      07-13-2013, 05:15 PM   #274
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When past meets future...




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      07-14-2013, 10:57 AM   #275
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The standard 4C driving off at the starting line of goodwood hill climb track 2013

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aw5rstaxxje7pp9/IMG_4563.MOV
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      07-14-2013, 06:21 PM   #276
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      07-14-2013, 06:23 PM   #277
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      07-15-2013, 03:56 AM   #278
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      07-15-2013, 11:54 AM   #279
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The long, long Alfa Romeo's tradition in peculiar car headlights design...

  • 1967 Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale
  • 1996 Alfa Romeo Nuvola (Designed by Walter de Silva an italian car designer who is currently Head of Volkswagen Group Design and responsible for the Volkwagen Bluesport concept design - my favorite car designer! )
  • 2006 Alfa Romeo Diva
  • 2013 Alfa Romeo 4C







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      07-15-2013, 01:31 PM   #280
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Im a big Alfa man but never liked the Diva...

As for Alfa fuel economy mentioned in earlier posts..

The claimed fuel figures will NEVER be achieved by the 4C! I can promise you that..

I own a 125kw 1.4 MultiAir Turbo Giulietta and a 1.4 118kw Abarth SS and neither of these two FIAT Powertrain Engines get remotely close to the quoted consumption figures. And I can promise you now the new 1750cc TBI engine in the 4C wont get close to claimed figures either.

Then again I do have a heavy right foot..
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      07-15-2013, 02:11 PM   #281
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Quit defending the ugly headlights.

If you like them, that is all that matters...right?
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      07-15-2013, 02:16 PM   #282
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In the flesh the lights look good..

Was rather sceptical myself when I ordered my 4C LE with those lights.. But after seeing it in the flesh.. I have no worries about the lights. It looks good in the flesh.. The carbon surround ones that is..
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      07-16-2013, 09:55 AM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moegviralles View Post
Im a big Alfa man but never liked the Diva...

As for Alfa fuel economy mentioned in earlier posts..

The claimed fuel figures will NEVER be achieved by the 4C! I can promise you that..

I own a 125kw 1.4 MultiAir Turbo Giulietta and a 1.4 118kw Abarth SS and neither of these two FIAT Powertrain Engines get remotely close to the quoted consumption figures. And I can promise you now the new 1750cc TBI engine in the 4C wont get close to claimed figures either.

Then again I do have a heavy right foot..

Perreby,


I own a BMW 1M and the quoted consumption figure is 9.6l/100 km (combined). The average consumption figure I get in practice for my driving style is 18.5l/ 100 km.

The 1M has a 3.0-liter turbocharged engine with a power output of 340 hp for 1570 kg of weight.


Do you really have any doubt whatsoever that with the Alfa Romeo 4C which has ONLY 1750 cc of engine capacity, 100 hp less, just 1 tonne weight and a BETTER acceleration figure, I can get MUCH better consumption figures than 18.5l/100 km with the same driving style, even though, they are WAY above the quoted consumption figure of 6.8l/ 100km?!

At the very least and for the same driving style, surely I will get a consumption rate of (9.6 - 6.8)l/100 km =~3.0l/100 km less at,

(18.5 - 3.0)l/100 km = 15.5l/100 km, which represents a SAVING of 16% on petrol for still GREATER performance.

Of course that this saving could be SIGNIFICANTLY higher if the engine was a diesel engine, for instance, the 2.0L, 218 hp, Twin (sequential) Turbo Diesel I4 from BMW with a torque figure of 450 Nm (332 lb ft) @ 1500-2500 rpm, even if at the expense of some more weight, say 100 kg more for an average consumption figure of ONLY 10.0l/100 km for the same driving style. A NO BRAINER!!!


That's the reason why the Volkswagen Bluesport concept makes SO much sense!

.
.
.

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      07-16-2013, 10:07 AM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Quit defending the ugly headlights.
I'm not defending what doesn't need to be defended... the Alfa 4C looks are absolutely stunning!

I was just making reference to what has been a long tradition from Alfa Romeo - bold design innovation, of which the headlights (and the rear lights for that matter) were and always are a key element :





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      07-16-2013, 10:16 AM   #285
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      07-16-2013, 10:20 AM   #286
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I'll be honest, the headlights have grown on me. The earlier show car lights are still preferable, but were apparently much heavier, so fine, give me the silly spider lights.
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