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      08-29-2013, 03:17 PM   #111
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new to this forum and thread with these problems...

My 335d is currently at the dealer having the intake manifold replaced because of the crud buildup in the intake system.(approx. $1300, not covered by my cpo warranty) It went in to fix a series of glow plug failures... but they found this when it was open. I'm not surprised since I replaced a leaking air cooler at around 30k I poured a bunch of oil out of it when I did.
The inside surfaces of the manifold they removed have about a 1/4 inch of buildup. This crud appears to be pretty much standard engine buildup consisting of oil, soot, water vapor, and standard blow by gasses. It forms a "cake" that slowly covers surfaces. I have seen it many times and on many engines though usually built up inside the crankcase.
Water vapor is a prime contributor in its formation. This stuff forms faster in a cold engine than in a warm one. It forms very fast in engines that don't get warmed up properly.
Since I have just reached 73k with this vehicle I wish to mitigate this issue so that I don't have to do it all over again in another 70k miles. There have been a number of interesting posts on various mods that might serve the purpose. Removing most of the oil mist from the recirculating gasses would certainly help... but can it be done efficiently without otherwise disturbing the emission control?. I don't really want to guess about getting it correct.
I want to get it right the first time and as inexpensively as I reasonably can.
It seems odd to me that since it appears to be such a pervasive problem across so many different manufacturers that a well defined solution does not exist. It is certainly in the best interest of all engine manufacturers to find a solution to this problem or it is going to wind up being expensive to them and us. That ProVent solution looked very interesting... has anyone here in the US tried it to see if it is appropriate for emission restrictions?
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      08-29-2013, 04:40 PM   #112
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My 335d is currently at the dealer having the intake manifold replaced because of the crud buildup in the intake system.(approx. $1300, not covered by my cpo warranty)
I am guessing you have an "after-market" warranty...not BMW CPO warranty from BMW NA.
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      08-29-2013, 08:17 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by 335dwagon View Post
My catch can is installed and I have checked the can after 400 miles of driving the car and it works very well. Not a lot of oil in it, but some. I will take pictures of it installed on my car this weekend hopefully. The car is at BMW for a new Air Conditioning Evaporator replacement for 3 days.
Details please, my wagon-wielding friend!
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      08-30-2013, 06:02 AM   #114
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Rotor this is the DOC i have mentioned that was the FIRST WAGNER IC install in Europe for a 335d let alone a WAGON, because of him its why WAGNER decided to make ICs for the 335d's in USA. He will provide info as soon as his job as a DOCTOR lets him. But rest assure you will get it, trust me on this amigo!
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      08-31-2013, 08:14 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_vs_ View Post
I am guessing you have an "after-market" warranty...not BMW CPO warranty from BMW NA.
CPO doesn't cover carbon buildup specifically. Once you pass 50k carbon buildup magically becomes a maintenance issue.
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      09-01-2013, 07:16 AM   #116
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True CPO waranty...

I have the true CPO warranty with the scheduled service add on.
To 50K a slightly modified Original Owner Warranty applied... 50K to 100K
a more limited Warranty applies along with a $50 fee. It has worked wonderfully up to now. In general I'm very happy with how BMW services this car and my needs. In this case I think that a low cost solution can be engineered to mitigate this problem.
That it hasn't is BMW's Engineering departments failure... and I'm going to put my 2 cents in that bucket when the "are you happy with your experience" form comes in.
I also see this oversight as an opportunity to see if I can/should engineer my own and market it. I have several interesting ideas for a simple retrofit.
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      09-01-2013, 09:47 AM   #117
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additional opinion

I want to state for the record that I have 3 other BMW's in the driveway... all e46's and none of them suffer from this issue as best as I can tell.
I had a 7 series with +200k miles on it that did not need this.
All of them have more mileage on them than my e90. None of them have/had turbo's in them and I believe this issue is exacerbated by a turbo and intercooler added to the intake. The gasses have to be introduced before the turbo since that is the low pressure side and any particulates (mist) are going to become super mist when they pass through the vanes of the turbocharger.
I believe this is where the electrochemistry is happening that is creating the
crud that gums up the system. Oil molecules and water molecules bond weakly to form the substance that is causing the issue. It must still have another unpaired bond left to cause it to form cake on the available surfaces.
Static electric charge may also play a part as well... the plastic manifold is electrically non conductive so static charges have no place to conduct to and will lead to helping particulates stick together.
At least this is how the engineer in me analyzes this problem while
searching for a solution. There are probably other factors as well.
The question for me is it worth the time and financial resources to find a solution that can be marketed effectively for a profit... and that is always a crap shoot. There is certainly a retro market in which to market it to, but how many people are going to know or care until the problem causes an expensive repair? Educating them to market it is going to be required if it is to be a profitable venture... it may be better to engineer a solution that can then be sold to a mass marketer. Shark tank anyone?

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      09-01-2013, 12:50 PM   #118
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Wow. See, this is an example of the reasons why I stopped posting here.
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      09-01-2013, 07:16 PM   #119
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???

You sure do love to stir the pot... good luck with that.
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      09-02-2013, 04:15 PM   #120
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quick thoughts on this. Although we havn't been given an 'aftermarket solution' to help keep the crud down. What about a solution for some preventative maintenance to keep it clean?
Are those with water meth injection still having this problem? What about trying some sort of 'seafoam' type intake cleaning?
Blowby is pretty common, but normally it just hangs out and can lightly film the area. The solution to that is simply open up the throttle every now and then to suck it out, this appears to be a 'caking' process?
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      09-02-2013, 06:09 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoltans4 View Post
quick thoughts on this. Although we havn't been given an 'aftermarket solution' to help keep the crud down. What about a solution for some preventative maintenance to keep it clean?
Are those with water meth injection still having this problem? What about trying some sort of 'seafoam' type intake cleaning?
Blowby is pretty common, but normally it just hangs out and can lightly film the area. The solution to that is simply open up the throttle every now and then to suck it out, this appears to be a 'caking' process?
You need to start by understanding the nature of our direct injected engines. This article is about gas DI, but most of the principles apply, and explains why anything injected (via the fueling system) won't help this issue: http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-...-adopters.html
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      09-02-2013, 09:44 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDiner View Post
You need to start by understanding the nature of our direct injected engines. This article is about gas DI, but most of the principles apply, and explains why anything injected (via the fueling system) won't help this issue: http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-...-adopters.html
I think he may have been alluding to sea foams product which spray into the intake section (not available for diesels) or are brought in through the vacuum lines (also not available for diesels to the best of my knowledge)
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      09-03-2013, 12:39 AM   #123
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Quote:
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I think he may have been alluding to sea foams product which spray into the intake section (not available for diesels) or are brought in through the vacuum lines (also not available for diesels to the best of my knowledge)
Right, not injector based but rather some type of diesel friendly fluid which can be brought into the intak and sucked through that is able to 'clean' and safe for diesels.
I off hand don't know of something, but i am sure a 'self clean' system may be doable. This is also why I was wondering what those with meth injection (which is windshield washer fluid at a base) have experiened with a possible dirty intake tract or is it clean?
Actually Seafoam IS diesel friendly since it is petrolium based - http://www.seafoamsales.com/is-sea-f...diesel-engine/

Im still a bit away from opening mine up to see what I have going on in there, so I am hoping to just keep ideas going in this thread so at some point we either find a decent solution or a 'treatment' for it.
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      09-03-2013, 01:40 PM   #124
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Right, not injector based but rather some type of diesel friendly fluid which can be brought into the intak and sucked through that is able to 'clean' and safe for diesels.
I off hand don't know of something, but i am sure a 'self clean' system may be doable. This is also why I was wondering what those with meth injection (which is windshield washer fluid at a base) have experiened with a possible dirty intake tract or is it clean?
Actually Seafoam IS diesel friendly since it is petrolium based - http://www.seafoamsales.com/is-sea-f...diesel-engine/

Im still a bit away from opening mine up to see what I have going on in there, so I am hoping to just keep ideas going in this thread so at some point we either find a decent solution or a 'treatment' for it.
Seafoam is not friendly to our cars IIRC. I don't think it is safe on the diesel particulate filter.

I think the only viable option is to remove the manifold for cleaning. Even if you could somehow use a cleaner to do this on the car, I would imagine it would be harmful to the DPF.
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      09-03-2013, 02:44 PM   #125
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Wow. See, this is an example of the reasons why I stopped posting here.
apparently not
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      09-03-2013, 10:31 PM   #126
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Warm Kerosene

Warm Kerosene is one of the best internal engine gunk cleaners I know of for back yard cleaners. It can be found with a little work for a reasonable price. It virtually melts away the engine sludge. A soft brush will help it work faster.
Some caution is in order though... it is a bit more flammable than diesel fuel so be careful of ignition sources. Don't use it in a running engine, especially a diesel. I would not add it to the crankcase, though I've heard it recommended on a couple of occasions. It may swell/soften oil based rubber gaskets and seals... check first if in doubt. Protect your hands if you have sensitivities.

I plan to use it to clean up the gunked up manifold they replaced so I have a spare on the shelf for the next time.
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      09-03-2013, 10:53 PM   #127
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Mitigation

In doing research on this problem elsewhere I have uncovered info I did not exactly come across here... mainly that BMW introduced a couple of fixes to the PCV and EGR systems. Maybe if I had read the threads thoroughly I would have come across these details. It was not clear from what I read whether it applied to both gas and diesel versions. As far as I know my vehicle is up to date on all of the recalls, though some were done relatively recently.
I plan to go over this in detail with the service manager when I pick up the vehicle and see if there are any "service bulletins" that may be applicable to mitigate future reoccurrences. I certainly don't want to revisit this in another 70K when it is well out of warranty. (even though I am keeping the old manifold and cleaning it just in case) I am a bit concerned about carbon buildup in the parts they are not replacing... head, intercooler, hoses, etc.
I plan to drop the intercooler and take a look inside to see what kind of shape it is in. I have a spare I can exchange in if I don't like what I see.
It was removed around 30K during a misdiagnosis of a problem.
I will ask what they did about the crud inside the head. I can always use a bore scope to take a look inside if I'm still concerned. (some disassembly required) I plan to take a picture of the intake manifold they removed and put it up here for viewing, I will also do the same with intercooler when I get to it.

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      09-04-2013, 03:06 PM   #128
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Wow. See, this is an example of the reasons why I stopped posting here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
apparently not
Occasionally I see something like "pre-turbo electrochemical gassing" that I feel rises to the level of earning my disparagement. But I just cannot bring myself to address this type nonsense any longer for some reason.
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      09-04-2013, 04:56 PM   #129
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In doing research on this problem elsewhere I have uncovered info I did not exactly come across here... mainly that BMW introduced a couple of fixes to the PCV and EGR systems. Maybe if I had read the threads thoroughly I would have come across these details...
The sticky thread "Recall Roundup: SCR/EGR system" at the top summarizes the changes. This info was perhaps more thoroughly (and earlier) covered on the Bimmerfest diesel forum.
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      09-04-2013, 07:29 PM   #130
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Took way, way longer than it should have, but this finally came in the mail.
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      09-05-2013, 05:41 PM   #131
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TDI, not sure what your plan is, but thought you might be interested in this thread, as it pertains to the part you're showing: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=595716
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      09-06-2013, 01:37 PM   #132
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TDI, not sure what your plan is, but thought you might be interested in this thread, as it pertains to the part you're showing: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=595716
Thanks for the link.

Right now I'm swamped with end of fiscal year work deadlines. And then my next service appt is coming up... But after that I plan on using this in some experimentation with routing to/from the Provent and/or other means of reducing blow by oil introduction into the intake system.
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