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View Poll Results: Should we act
No: It is not our civil war. 66 72.53%
Pending: We need further concrete evidence of chemical warfare. 6 6.59%
Yes: A couple cruise missiles are ok. That's about it though. 6 6.59%
Yes: Strike with significant impact. Hopefully it gets the job done : / 4 4.40%
Yes: Drop the hammer. Time to cripple their military and teach Syria a lesson they won't forget. 9 9.89%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-13-2013, 04:08 PM   #155
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There's a significant difference between a plain request and a plea. There's more urgency, emotion, and a sense of desperation. Putin obviously knows the US isn't listening so he's showing his vulnerability in order to gain our trust. We may not listen, but I think it's important to note that he's deflating his ego and wrote with humility in the NYT. I thought it was a respectable move. It's still up in the air whether his motives are genuine or not.

It's hard to tell what will happen, as there's no concrete negotiations yet. In my opinion, it'd be prudent for us to not intervene with Syria, and it'd be an even worse idea to use military force just to show Putin who's boss.

My comment about the US government applies to this situation in that there seems to be no accountability for our government's actions. Throughout this entire Syria episode, the only thing I could think about is what's keeping us in check? If the government decides to go invade Syria, the international community can't stop us, and opinions of the citizens our government is suppose to represent won't matter. Government is suppose to be a service to its constituents and act as their representative. The idea of going to war without our own oversight is overstepping our government's intended power.

If we proceed with military intervention in Syria and countless more innocent lives are lost, how are we better than Assad?
By definition, plea and request mean the same thing.

If our government had waited for overwhelming approval from citizens to go to war the past 200 years, we'd probably be under a communist dictator right now, along with half the world. Meaning there generally is not an overwhelming majority in favor of war.

My feeling is we don't want our grandkids reading about this Syria event in 30 years in history books, and the page about what the US did to stop and punish Syria after it's government gassed 1400+ people, is blank.
Then the kids ask, "So we didn't do ANYTHING???"

Assad is already asking that we stop with the threat of Military force IF they do not comply. That threat is NEVER coming off the table and it shouldn't. I have serious doubts Assad, a liar and killer, is going to follow our instructions, which will ultimately result in military force.

If Obama elects military action, the furthest thing from his mind would be to do it to "show Putin whose boss".

We may have to agree to disagree on this one, as neither of us is "undecided" on this.

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      09-13-2013, 06:51 PM   #156
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My feeling is we don't want our grandkids reading about this Syria event in 30 years in history books, and the page about what the US did to stop and punish Syria after it's government gassed 1400+ people, is blank.
Then the kids ask, "So we didn't do ANYTHING???"
What did the US do after the 1988 Halabja chemical attack? The US did nothing. The only time US citizens heard about this was when the US turned on the propaganda machine for Gulf War 91 and Iraqi "Freedom".....Evil Saddam, chemical weapons, weapons of mass destruction boohoohoo. Funny how the US government gave Iraq those same chemical weapons to use against the Iranians but nobody held the US responsible for any of it. Why didn't the US punish itself somehow being that it is so full of morality and goodness?

Why doesn't the US do something about the murder rate in Chicago? Why doesn't the US do something about the horrific drug war in Mexico? A country that actually borders the US. A civil war that exists because of this country's thirst for prohibited drugs. Why stop at Syria?
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      09-13-2013, 07:12 PM   #157
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US foreign policy is flawed. It has been flawed before I was a gleam in my fathers eyes. It is the reason why we are hated, why we are constantly under attack and why we have been attacked by middle eastern terrorists. The alphabet soup agencies have interrogating numerous possible terrorists and they all say the reason for the attacks is because we are over there and as long as Merica is on the Arabian peninsula we will be under perpetual attack. Instead of fixing a flawed and distasterous foreign policy, especially in the Middle East, we keep it up.
I completely agree with this. It's what Ron Paul has been saying over and over for decades. I'm hopeful that more people, and perhaps people in decision making positions, are recognizing what the root of the problem is.
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      09-13-2013, 07:24 PM   #158
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I completely agree with this. It's what Ron Paul has been saying over and over for decades. I'm hopeful that more people, and perhaps people in decision making positions, are recognizing what the root of the problem is.
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      09-14-2013, 09:00 AM   #159
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What did the US do after the 1988 Halabja chemical attack? The US did nothing. The only time US citizens heard about this was when the US turned on the propaganda machine for Gulf War 91 and Iraqi "Freedom".....Evil Saddam, chemical weapons, weapons of mass destruction boohoohoo. Funny how the US government gave Iraq those same chemical weapons to use against the Iranians but nobody held the US responsible for any of it. Why didn't the US punish itself somehow being that it is so full of morality and goodness?

Why doesn't the US do something about the murder rate in Chicago? Why doesn't the US do something about the horrific drug war in Mexico? A country that actually borders the US. A civil war that exists because of this country's thirst for prohibited drugs. Why stop at Syria?
It sounds like you have some personal issues with our government, which is off topic for this thread.

To focus back on topic, I still stand by my view that military actions need to loom for any chance of a successful outcome with the situatuion in Syria.
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      09-14-2013, 09:36 AM   #160
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It sounds like you have some personal issues with our government, which is off topic for this thread.

To focus back on topic, I still stand by my view that military actions need to loom for any chance of a successful outcome with the situatuion in Syria.
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      09-14-2013, 09:52 AM   #161
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That little guy sure has some intersting stuff in his head, but way too far out there to be of any relevance or provoke any deep thought in this thread about Syria.
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      09-14-2013, 09:59 AM   #162
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Way too far out there to be of any relevance or provoke any deep thought in this thread about Syria.
That's far out but threatening a country 6000+ miles away with war is A O K in your book?
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      09-14-2013, 10:40 AM   #163
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as a side note: people not to go against in war...

The Russians
Man that's hard to watch. Between her awkward faces, the completely cynical attitude, punchline delivery and those eyes, it's hard to take her seriously and consume any actual information from her.
Did you get anything out of what she said, vs. how she said it?
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      09-14-2013, 11:07 AM   #164
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Yes - Hillary would probably hand him another "Reset" button - she might even spell it correctly this time, and look like a little less of a fool, while mocking George Bush to him.

It amazes me that she is still a contender, after 5 years of a piss-poor job as Secretary of State, ending with the Benghazi mess. But you are correct - the a many that would still vote for her.
Your opinion of HC is irrelevant to me. I based my post on her public comments in support of military intervention and there's little out there that would corroborate an MO of saying one thing and doing another on her part. So I don't agree that she'd hand anybody a reset button. And I don't agree that she'd ever badmouth a US president to an adversary.

I understand that you hate her. But if you don't appreciate people giving Bush flack, then you should shy away from doing the same thing. Wishful thinking is nothing more than a failure of logic. And at the end of the day, a biased opinion is always just that - a biased opinion.
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      09-14-2013, 11:11 AM   #165
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That's far out but threatening a country 6000+ miles away with war is A O K in your book?
Again, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do or ask (including this carefully crafted, loaded question) that is going to make me or anyone that shares my position, waiver or QUESTION our stance on Syria. You are wasting your time. Your audience with this line of logic are the "undecideds".

I stated my opinion on Syria. It's OK for everyone to state your position, but quite frankly, QUESTIONING people with the polar opposite stance, regardless of what stance you take, is a waste of time. There is nothing to be gained from this.

Go to some peace march if that helps you vent.

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      09-14-2013, 11:20 AM   #166
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Again, there is NOTHING or no special angle or trick question that is going to make me or anyone that shares my position, waiver or question our stance on Syria. You ar wasting your time. Your audiance with this are the undecideds.
Doubt turns people into stronger champions of their ideas.
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      09-14-2013, 11:21 AM   #167
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Again, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do or ask (including this carefully crafted, loaded question) that is going to make me or anyone that shares my position, waiver or QUESTION our stance on Syria. You are wasting your time. Your audience with this line of logic are the "undecideds".

It's OK to voice your position or stance, but quite frankly, QUESTIONING someone with the opposite stance, regardless of what stance you take, is a waste of time.

Go to a peace march if that helps you vent.
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      09-14-2013, 11:36 AM   #168
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Doubt turns people into stronger champions of their ideas.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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      09-14-2013, 12:21 PM   #169
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Yes - Hillary would probably hand him another "Reset" button - she might even spell it correctly this time, and look like a little less of a fool, while mocking George Bush to him.

It amazes me that she is still a contender, after 5 years of a piss-poor job as Secretary of State, ending with the Benghazi mess. But you are correct - the a many that would still vote for her.
Your opinion of HC is irrelevant to me. I based my post on her public comments in support of military intervention and there's little out there that would corroborate an MO of saying one thing and doing another on her part. So I don't agree that she'd hand anybody a reset button. And I don't agree that she'd ever badmouth a US president to an adversary.

I understand that you hate her. But if you don't appreciate people giving Bush flack, then you should shy away from doing the same thing. Wishful thinking is nothing more than a failure of logic. And at the end of the day, a biased opinion is always just that - a biased opinion.
Are you serious, or did I miss the sarcasm? She DID hand the Russian president a "reset" button, when she first got the SoS job, saying that with Obama, she would reset the relationship with Russia that Bush had developed (clearly a shot at Bush, using the Russians as a sounding board). But - her staff either mis-spelled the word, or got the wrong one - the word was "overcharge."

And you're probably right - Hillary has a stellar past of only telling the truth. Everything else is a vast, right-wing conspiracy.
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      09-14-2013, 12:38 PM   #170
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Go to some peace march if that helps you vent.
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When the debate is lost slander becomes the tool of the loser.
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      09-14-2013, 12:50 PM   #171
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Your opinion of HC is irrelevant to me. I based my post on her public comments in support of military intervention and there's little out there that would corroborate an MO of saying one thing and doing another on her part. So I don't agree that she'd hand anybody a reset button. And I don't agree that she'd ever badmouth a US president to an adversary.

I understand that you hate her. But if you don't appreciate people giving Bush flack, then you should shy away from doing the same thing. Wishful thinking is nothing more than a failure of logic. And at the end of the day, a biased opinion is always just that - a biased opinion.
Wishful thinking is indeed nothing more than a failure of logic. This list of Hillary lies is from 2008:

Admitted Lies

- Chelsea was jogging around the Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001. (She was in bed watching it on TV.)
- Hillary was named after Sir Edmund Hillary. (She admitted she was wrong. He climbed Mt. Everest five years after her birth.)
- She was under sniper fire in Bosnia. (A girl presented her with flowers at the foot of the ramp.)
- She learned in The Wall Street Journal how to make a killing in the futures market. (It didn't cover the market back then.)

Whoppers She Won't Confess To

- She didn't know about the FALN pardons.
- She didn't know that her brothers were being paid to get pardons that Clinton granted.
- Taking the White House gifts was a clerical error.
- She didn't know that her staff would fire the travel office staff after she told them to do so.
- She didn't know that the Peter Paul fundraiser in Hollywood in 2000 cost $700,000 more than she reported it had.
- She opposed NAFTA at the time.
- She was instrumental in the Irish peace process.
- She urged Bill to intervene in Rwanda.
- She played a role in the '90s economic recovery.
- The billing records showed up on their own.
- She thought Bill was innocent when the Monica scandal broke.
- She was always a Yankees fan.
- She had nothing to do with the New Square Hasidic pardons (after they voted for her 1,400-12 and she attended a meeting at the White House about the pardons).
- She negotiated for the release of refugees in Macedonia (who were released the day before she got there).
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      09-14-2013, 02:41 PM   #172
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When the debate is lost slander becomes the tool of the loser.
Well, it's not every day I lose a debate I never had, so that was new.

The fact you THINK you won a "debate" comes as no surprise. That only STRENGTHENS my premise that it is a waste of time for 2 people with polar opposite beliefs to try to convince the other they are wrong. BOTH people leave with the same feeling - that their position is still still best.

I could have said, "boo", and youd have come up with a different snappy slogan and said you "won".

I DON'T CARE if you think you "won". However, if that is what caps our waste of time together, then great.

You assume I had no doubts or logical reasoning before choosing my position. I get it...... it's good to doubt one's position, but only if it results in siding with you.

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      09-15-2013, 11:56 AM   #173
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/wo...pagewanted=all
looks like there's a deal
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      09-15-2013, 12:43 PM   #174
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By definition, plea and request mean the same thing.

If our government had waited for overwhelming approval from citizens to go to war the past 200 years, we'd probably be under a communist dictator right now, along with half the world. Meaning there generally is not an overwhelming majority in favor of war.

My feeling is we don't want our grandkids reading about this Syria event in 30 years in history books, and the page about what the US did to stop and punish Syria after it's government gassed 1400+ people, is blank.
Then the kids ask, "So we didn't do ANYTHING???"

Assad is already asking that we stop with the threat of Military force IF they do not comply. That threat is NEVER coming off the table and it shouldn't. I have serious doubts Assad, a liar and killer, is going to follow our instructions, which will ultimately result in military force.

If Obama elects military action, the furthest thing from his mind would be to do it to "show Putin whose boss".

We may have to agree to disagree on this one, as neither of us is "undecided" on this.
I'm not suggesting to poll every individual eligible voter, but there should be a way to keep the government accountable. There's definitely been wars where there was public support. Even recently, the war in Afghanistan had tremendous support (~88%) when it started 12 years ago, although current public approval has flagged.

Gassing of 1400? More people are murdered here, so by that logic we should invade ourselves.

My opinions are never decided. They're always changing as there can be information which challenges what I think. Challenging our own opinions is how we grow. This is why these discussions take place. These aren't religious beliefs where you believe something and that's that. Opinions should always be open to change. There's physical evidence that shows what decisions are informed and responsible.

Remember when we aided Islamist rebels in Afghanistan? They turned into Al Qaeda.

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To focus back on topic, I still stand by my view that military actions need to loom for any chance of a successful outcome with the situatuion in Syria.
So are you just in support of a military threat or actual military intervention? I guess it doesn't matter anymore now that they've struck a deal.
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      09-15-2013, 06:26 PM   #175
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So are you just in support of a military threat or actual military intervention? I guess it doesn't matter anymore now that they've struck a deal.

I was dying for someone to ask me this. Your sarcasm is a nice touch too.

Sooooooo......that would be a premature guess on your part, and here's why:

Generally, EVERYONE is satisfied we are trying diplomacy first, and a deal has been met. That was good news. Without the US threat of military action we'd never have gotten to this stage.

However, everyone can agree this situation is a LOOOOOONG way from being resolved. We have a resolution when all the CW are destroyed. We are dealing with a pathological liar in Assad. Assad KNOWS the US can and will consider military force if he steps out of line or disobeys orders. ...and why, because we can. So, our threat of military force will continue to loom.

So, at this stage of the game, hopefully the FACT military force will always loom, will keep Asad in line, and he does not kill any more kids with his CW.

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      09-15-2013, 06:31 PM   #176
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The resolution is when all the CW are destroyed.
This will likely never happen.
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