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      11-18-2013, 12:44 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
that being said...BMW is getting soft
That must be why you got your matte black grilles and license plate LED...so people will know you're hard.
Hahaha! Ouch!
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      11-18-2013, 09:52 AM   #68
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Very succinct and well stated.
Thanks my man.

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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
The overwhelming majority of BMWs that I see on the road are base 328i sedans, base 528i sedans, base X3s, base X5s, etc.

A tiny percentage of hardcore enthusiasts may feel that the M brand is being diluted with the introduction of all the "M Sport" and "M Performance" models/products but even if all of these customers jump ship, it's not going to even put a dent in BMW's armor.

Even the guys rambling about being ticked off because the new M3 is a forced induction car will likely buy it, despite their grievances.

As an aside: My M Sport F30 335i was pretty soft. Even after adding literally all of the M Performance parts, it was still a little soft (particularly in the steering department). That's why I switched.

That said, I was glad that those M Performance parts existed. I was very shocked at how soft my RWD M Sport 335i was. It was quick, sure. But the suspension was floaty, there were copious amounts of body roll, and I could steer the car with my little finger because the steering was so boosted.

If anything, the M Performance parts kept me hanging on to the car a little longer than I would've otherwise.
Which is why I initially stated that I do not necessarily agree.

I can see the business reasons for this type of evolution--and I also understand that a very small minority of people care about ///M heritage, lightness, etc...but I one of those people...

And I don't have to like where we have ended up, or where BMW is heading.

That being said, we still have the 2er in RWD and MT (for now), and those are components of a car that I cannot live without at this point in my life. Maybe that will change--but BMW is the only option at the price point at which I am comfortable buying...so I stick with them. I will just keep complaining.
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      11-18-2013, 11:54 AM   #69
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I'm not convinced the M5 is losing. The press says its losing, but I think the sales numbers would show it's outselling the other cars which means its winning.

Market can't be wrong, but media can be wrong.
And the Big Mac is the best beef because it outsells the competition.

When objective, professional critics are asked to drive and report their experiences and there is a great deal of agreement upon these reports, I tend to give some weight to their opinion. The M5 has been lambasted, BMW is getting skewered and is certainly "on the outs" with lots of auto journalists, after decades of being the darling of said journalists.

Matters are certainly exacerbated when BMW's own representative on this forum has repeatedly stated that BMW's focus is shifting to what its consumers want. And what consumers want today is not the same thing that E39 M5, E46 M3, etc consumers wanted back in yesteryear.

The fact remains that the M3/M4 are most likely to STILL be the most fun daily drivers, but the competition has improved leaps and bounds in just the past 5 years and BMW has stagnated and become much concerned about efficiency than Nurburgring lap times.
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      11-18-2013, 12:08 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
-=John William score plays in background.=-

That's a pretty bold statement.

Explain to me how by appealing to a wider audience (i.e., selling more cars), BMW will begin to suffer as a business.
Asks the guy with the C63!

But seriously, you don't think the BMW brand might suffer if ultimately loses its identity? 10 years ago you would have been laughed off of this forum if you said you bought a Mercedes-Benz. Today, it is not a joke to cross-shop cars like Mercedes and Cadillac. And BMW's response is to make their cars even softer?

My mother's E46 330CiC without sport package was a 220hp exotic sports car compared to the F30. Despite the 16" wheels and heavy nature of the convertible, it was much tighter and fun to drive than the 328i loaner I just drove. This is a big, John Williams-esque problem. BMW can appeal to EVERYONE, you do not have to pick-and-choose between luxury and sport. So why are they failing so bad on the sport side of things recently? Ineptitude? Cost-cutting? What?

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      11-18-2013, 12:26 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
Asks the guy with the C63!

Why did you buy the Benz?
I think he pretty clearly said why, that he liked it better.

The OP to your reply also pretty clearly identified that the type of customer that is focused solely on driving dynamics is almost insignificant to current sales. That doesn't make it all good, but it at least adds a dose of reality to this discussion.

People buy BMW's for a variety of reasons:

There's the driving enthusiast, they want a car that is uncompromising in driving dynamics.

There's the brand enthusiast, they want the roundel.

There's the appearance enthusiast, they want //M badges and styling without paying for it, and want people to see that they have it all over their car.

There's the tech enthusiast, they'll add any and all gizmo's that have nothing to do with driving dynamics.

There's the style enthusiast, they'll add leather to any and all surfaces and/or individual paint before worrying about how it drives.

And then there are people that buy what they like.

The first one, the driving enthusiast, is sadly the smallest. Most people are some combination of the above, (you could probably come up with more types) and there really isn't any right or wrong to it, it's just a way to address what makes people want a BMW.
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      11-18-2013, 12:45 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
Asks the guy with the C63!

But seriously, you don't think the BMW brand might suffer if ultimately loses its identity? 10 years ago you would have been laughed off of this forum if you said you bought a Mercedes-Benz. Today, it is not a joke to cross-shop cars like Mercedes and Cadillac. And BMW's response is to make their cars even softer?

My mother's E46 330CiC without sport package was a 220hp exotic sports car compared to the F30. Despite the 16" wheels and heavy nature of the convertible, it was much tighter and fun to drive than the 328i loaner I just drove. This is a big, John Williams-esque problem. BMW can appeal to EVERYONE, you do not have to pick-and-choose between luxury and sport. So why are they failing so bad on the sport side of things recently? Ineptitude? Cost-cutting? What?
News for ya!

I HATED the F30 loaners I have had AND the same low rent E90 loaners I have had in the past.
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      11-18-2013, 12:51 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
And the Big Mac is the best beef because it outsells the competition.
That is a stupid argument to make.

The big mac outsells other beef products because of price.

The M5 outsells the competition at a similar and likely higher Average Selling Price. In addition the people who buy these products tend to be pretty well educated with a good understanding of the product space.

If you can outsell at a similar or higher price, to highly educated customers, then you probably have a better product.

On a separate note your reverence for journalists is highly misplaced. In my industry the people who write for a living are the drop outs. You make much more money being the people who are making the deals.
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      11-18-2013, 12:52 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ska325xi
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Originally Posted by Never Convicted
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Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
that being said...BMW is getting soft
That must be why you got your matte black grilles and license plate LED...so people will know you're hard.
Lol why u mad bro??
The discussion here is that BMW is not what it use to be and I always see guys from BMWUSA trying to explain to us that it is due to customer demands...so that being said, BMW is getting soft and no longer make their cars with performance being the priority....so whats your response on that?
Never conficted, Why u silent now? You got anymore personal attacks to say?
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      11-18-2013, 01:23 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
That is a stupid argument to make.


If you can outsell at a similar or higher price, to highly educated customers, then you probably have a better product.
Or better marketing?
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      11-18-2013, 01:35 PM   #76
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News for ya!

I HATED the F30 loaners I have had AND the same low rent E90 loaners I have had in the past.
I agree here. Loaners are not examples for which the whole should be judged against.
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      11-18-2013, 02:03 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Which is why I initially stated that I do not necessarily agree.

I can see the business reasons for this type of evolution--and I also understand that a very small minority of people care about ///M heritage, lightness, etc...but I one of those people...

And I don't have to like where we have ended up, or where BMW is heading.

That being said, we still have the 2er in RWD and MT (for now), and those are components of a car that I cannot live without at this point in my life. Maybe that will change--but BMW is the only option at the price point at which I am comfortable buying...so I stick with them. I will just keep complaining.
I was more or less just sharing my conflicting thoughts/feelings on the issue. I wasn't necessarily trying to argue one side or another.

All of your viewpoints seem reasonable and make sense to me (particularly considering your perspective).

Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
Asks the guy with the C63!

But seriously, you don't think the BMW brand might suffer if ultimately loses its identity? 10 years ago you would have been laughed off of this forum if you said you bought a Mercedes-Benz. Today, it is not a joke to cross-shop cars like Mercedes and Cadillac. And BMW's response is to make their cars even softer?

My mother's E46 330CiC without sport package was a 220hp exotic sports car compared to the F30. Despite the 16" wheels and heavy nature of the convertible, it was much tighter and fun to drive than the 328i loaner I just drove. This is a big, John Williams-esque problem. BMW can appeal to EVERYONE, you do not have to pick-and-choose between luxury and sport. So why are they failing so bad on the sport side of things recently? Ineptitude? Cost-cutting? What?
I don't have a dog in the fight with respect to the topic. I was just trying to promote passionate, reasoned discussion.

But, since you asked (and because you obviously spent some time on your post), I'll throw in my two cents.

To a very limited extent, I do think BMW will suffer by doing business in a way that causes "enthusiasts" to perceive that BMW/M is "getting soft."

On the other hand, even if BMW does lose an enthusiast customer (like me), this loss may only be a temporary one.

Although I've made a switch to MB AMG for the moment, I would happily lease an F80 M3 someday (provided that it drives the way I want it to).

What I guess I'm saying is that even if BMW loses some hardcore enthusiast customers in the short term, these customers will always be replaced tenfold by either those who like the softer, more luxurious cars, or by those who are simply seeking the badge.

The hardcore enthusiast customer is usually always pretty in-tune with what is going on in the automotive world and if the F80 M3 turns out to be a grand slam, BMW/M will gain the enthusiasts back in the long run.

Finally, I don't necessarily think that all the fault lies with BMW/M.

For example, MB/AMG have really stepped up their game since about 2011. AMGs are simply no longer just luxurious, straight-line monsters. Exercises in engineering such as the C63 AMG Black Series and SLS AMG Black Series are prime examples of the direction that the AMG Division is going.

As an enthusiast, I first and foremost want a car that is fun to drive. I want the car to be fun on the street and I want it to be fun on the track as well. Lap times are great but lap times and smiles are better.

I was incredibly close to getting a "Lime Rock" E92 M3 but ended up going with the AMG. The steering on the C63 was crisper, more communicative, and a tad heavier. The C63 felt wonderfully neutral. On the street, both cars handled identically. The C63 did feel a bit heavier but it's hard to worry about that too much when you downshift to third and the rear tires break loose.

It was a very tough decision. The DCT in the M3 was absolutely beautiful. I ended up falling in love with the torque and sonorous exhaust note of the C63, however.

I wish I could have both of those cars honestly. I think the E9X M3 was a home run for BMW.

With respect to the forthcoming M cars, this is all I have to say:

Dear BMW, I do not need engine noise electronically piped into the cabin. I do not need thousands of combination/permutations of throttle, transmission, suspension, steering, etc. settings. I want the steering to be sporty and consistent; same goes for the suspension. Give me a few transmission/throttle settings; that's all I need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjayfan View Post
I think he pretty clearly said why, that he liked it better.

The OP to your reply also pretty clearly identified that the type of customer that is focused solely on driving dynamics is almost insignificant to current sales. That doesn't make it all good, but it at least adds a dose of reality to this discussion.

People buy BMW's for a variety of reasons:

There's the driving enthusiast, they want a car that is uncompromising in driving dynamics.

There's the brand enthusiast, they want the roundel.

There's the appearance enthusiast, they want //M badges and styling without paying for it, and want people to see that they have it all over their car.

There's the tech enthusiast, they'll add any and all gizmo's that have nothing to do with driving dynamics.

There's the style enthusiast, they'll add leather to any and all surfaces and/or individual paint before worrying about how it drives.

And then there are people that buy what they like.

The first one, the driving enthusiast, is sadly the smallest. Most people are some combination of the above, (you could probably come up with more types) and there really isn't any right or wrong to it, it's just a way to address what makes people want a BMW.
Well said.
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      11-18-2013, 02:30 PM   #78
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ybbiz,

Thanks for your input. I also came exceptionally close to getting an M3, even went through the lease approval with my dealer, but couldn't do it after back-to-back driving with the Mustang GT and 335is (w/ DCT), both of which scratched a torque itch.

Have you ever posted your review of your car? I am about to put a deposit down on the F80, but wondering if I should hold out for the new C63.
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      11-18-2013, 02:46 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
I was more or less just sharing my conflicting thoughts/feelings on the issue. I wasn't necessarily trying to argue one side or another.

All of your viewpoints seem reasonable and make sense to me (particularly considering your perspective).



I don't have a dog in the fight with respect to the topic. I was just trying to promote passionate, reasoned discussion.

But, since you asked (and because you obviously spent some time on your post), I'll throw in my two cents.

To a very limited extent, I do think BMW will suffer by doing business in a way that causes "enthusiasts" to perceive that BMW/M is "getting soft."

On the other hand, even if BMW does lose an enthusiast customer (like me), this loss may only be a temporary one.

Although I've made a switch to MB AMG for the moment, I would happily lease an F80 M3 someday (provided that it drives the way I want it to).

What I guess I'm saying is that even if BMW loses some hardcore enthusiast customers in the short term, these customers will always be replaced tenfold by either those who like the softer, more luxurious cars, or by those who are simply seeking the badge.

The hardcore enthusiast customer is usually always pretty in-tune with what is going on in the automotive world and if the F80 M3 turns out to be a grand slam, BMW/M will gain the enthusiasts back in the long run.

Finally, I don't necessarily think that all the fault lies with BMW/M.

For example, MB/AMG have really stepped up their game since about 2011. AMGs are simply no longer just luxurious, straight-line monsters. Exercises in engineering such as the C63 AMG Black Series and SLS AMG Black Series are prime examples of the direction that the AMG Division is going.

As an enthusiast, I first and foremost want a car that is fun to drive. I want the car to be fun on the street and I want it to be fun on the track as well. Lap times are great but lap times and smiles are better.

I was incredibly close to getting a "Lime Rock" E92 M3 but ended up going with the AMG. The steering on the C63 was crisper, more communicative, and a tad heavier. The C63 felt wonderfully neutral. On the street, both cars handled identically. The C63 did feel a bit heavier but it's hard to worry about that too much when you downshift to third and the rear tires break loose.

It was a very tough decision. The DCT in the M3 was absolutely beautiful. I ended up falling in love with the torque and sonorous exhaust note of the C63, however.

I wish I could have both of those cars honestly. I think the E9X M3 was a home run for BMW.

With respect to the forthcoming M cars, this is all I have to say:

Dear BMW, I do not need engine noise electronically piped into the cabin. I do not need thousands of combination/permutations of throttle, transmission, suspension, steering, etc. settings. I want the steering to be sporty and consistent; same goes for the suspension. Give me a few transmission/throttle settings; that's all I need.



Well said.

Did you see the shots of the spied new C Class W205? It looks great, interior too looks like segment leader. Imagine that beauty with a Biturbo 4.0l V8 making 485 PS, tons of torque and it can handle... Note the SLS AMG BS did 7:25 around the N-Ring, no BMW can come close. If not the manual, I don't see the M4 having an advantage on paper and based on previous tendency of BMW cars.
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      11-18-2013, 04:12 PM   #80
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Did you see the shots of the spied new C Class W205? It looks great, interior too looks like segment leader. Imagine that beauty with a Biturbo 4.0l V8 making 485 PS, tons of torque and it can handle... Note the SLS AMG BS did 7:25 around the N-Ring, no BMW can come close. If not the manual, I don't see the M4 having an advantage on paper and based on previous tendency of BMW cars.
I did. And I agree with you, the quality of the interior materials is outstanding (and refreshing).

I imagine that the AMG variant of the new W205 will look even more menacing, as far as the exterior is concerned. I also expect that the gear selector will remain on the center console (as opposed to the steering column) on the W205 AMG.

With a biturbo 4.0L V8, and either the MCT or a proper DCT, that car will be devastatingly quick.

From what I've heard, the next-generation W205 AMG will remain RWD.
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