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      12-17-2013, 12:51 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
As I've mentioned ad nauseam, my only wish is for a little more oomph from the IS350 and that suddenly makes me a fanboy. The logic in that is flawed.
I never said KingOfJericho was a fanboy. I simply made the point that fanboys tend to jump into threads about other cars and disparage those competing brands, while never ever pointing out the negatives of their homer brand.

Also they sometimes say things like:

- "That Lexus looks fugly"
- "As opposed to "never were"? That's where Lexus resides."
- "Corvette's are driven by bald, old, guys wearing gold chains."
- "That car is great but the interior looks like the plastic my kids toys are made out of."
etc

I never pointed out anyone specifically, but the above is the most annoying part of the fanboy persona.
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      12-17-2013, 12:53 PM   #90
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I will repeat, once again, that I was speaking historically. A point I've clarified time and time again in this thread.
Okay, so currently, do you still stick with that opinion?
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      12-17-2013, 01:06 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
I never said KingOfJericho was a fanboy. I simply made the point that fanboys tend to jump into threads about other cars and disparage those competing brands, while never ever pointing out the negatives of their homer brand.

Also they sometimes say things like:

- "That Lexus looks fugly"
- "As opposed to "never were"? That's where Lexus resides."
- "Corvette's are driven by bald, old, guys wearing gold chains."
- "That car is great but the interior looks like the plastic my kids toys are made out of."
etc

I never pointed out anyone specifically, but the above is the most annoying part of the fanboy persona.
I don't have a "homer brand" so I don't see how pointing out weaknesses in one brand means that I favor another. As for BMW, I really didn't appreciate my 135 dying on my birthday with 6k on it (HPFP failure). Looks are subjective but I think the new 2er and 4ers are terrible looking (watered down). My comments on "never were" were meant to poke Levi who is a complete Lexus fanboy to the nth degree. I do think there is some truth in there, however. I don't recall reading articles touting the IS300 or IS350 as the benchmark by which others are judged. I did see that for the 335i frequently, including earlier in this thread in the test between the Q50 and IS350.

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Okay, so currently, do you still stick with that opinion?
I reserve judgement on driving dynamics until I can drive both vehicles for myself but based on numbers and reviews alone, Lexus has a very capable chassis that would be dominant with a little more horsepower. Their current acceleration figures are exactly the same as a Camry or Accord and not something I would expect from a car that looks like Darth Vader driving down the road.

From an appeal standpoint, it's Lexus all day long. I said earlier that the IS design is head and shoulders above anything else in the space at the moment. I love it. I also really like the interior. I'm not a fan of their packaging of options but I typically load cars up so it wouldn't matter anyway. I would also appreciate a manual. I know it's no longer faster but it puts a smile on my face to row my own boat.
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      12-17-2013, 01:09 PM   #92
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I would also appreciate a manual. I know it's no longer faster but it puts a smile on my face to row my own boat.
Finally something we can both agree on.
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      12-17-2013, 02:06 PM   #93
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^
I hope after all of this you are buying a RC-F.
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      12-17-2013, 02:25 PM   #94
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So the Lexus won by 0.4% and we should all just accept that it's hugely better? I'd rather have the ATS out of those three, but really, they're all pretty much a wash these days. I don't see King as any more of a fanboi than Media is simply just playing devil's advocate. But keep calling each other names, it's amusing.
I would take the ATS as well. Had a couple F30 loaners, did not like them at all. And the IS styling is not to my taste (as to many others). Cadillac is now being rated as the most fun to drive in the segment. Like you said as a package, the segment is really tight.
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      12-17-2013, 02:32 PM   #95
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I would take the ATS as well. Had a couple F30 loaners, did not like them at all. And the IS styling is not to my taste (as to many others). Cadillac is now being rated as the most fun to drive in the segment. Like you said as a package, the segment is really tight.
I actually like the Lexus styling, it's weird, but at least it gets my attention. The only reason an F30 gets my attention is that I like to try to tell if it's an F10 or F30.

But I want a manual, and Lexus doesn't play that, so it's ATS or F30. BMW and Audi have sized themselves out of my preferred size range, and with the even larger new C and upcoming B9 A4, I really don't see much choice for reasonably sized four doors with three pedals. If Caddy can just get their engines right, and work a little more feel into the manual box (and add the ubiquitous 8s ZF), they should win a lot of sales. A 2GC would go a long way towards getting my interest back in BMW sedans, but I suspect it's a long ways off.

I forgot about Infiniti, a brand I used to think best understood how to compete with the 3er, but they've just gone off the crazy French deep end.
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      12-17-2013, 02:36 PM   #96
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^
I hope after all of this you are buying a RC-F.
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      12-17-2013, 04:10 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
My comments on "never were" were meant to poke Levi who is a complete Lexus fanboy to the nth degree.



Fanboy? Read my comments on BP 5 years ago, I was a BMW fanboy. Now I am no fanboy of any brand, I like (and dislike something in) all brands. If I could afford such a car I would not yet be able to decide between M4 or RC-F. It is you the BMW fanboys that already ruled out RC-F. I'm just defending the attacked one, on Lexus forums I defend BMW.


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      12-17-2013, 04:57 PM   #98
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      12-19-2013, 01:01 AM   #99
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Don't waste your time.

This was covered pages back in the thread.

It doesn't matter that the IS350 F Sport hands the 335i M Sport its ass in all aspects of driving feel from suspension calibration to steering feel. It needs 10 more whp or else it's crap, and doesn't deserve a look because according to these guys, Lexus is a never-was, and BMW has been a class leading super star for decades. It doesn't matter that the IS350 destroyed the 335i M Sport in the slalom test, it's all about that missing 10 whp. If it wasn't for that small detail, Lexus would be on top, but because it's not there, the 335i all day baby. When these fanboys step on the gas, they want to feel 0-60 in 4 seconds flat, otherwise why bother with such a slow, lumbering car, you might as well be pedaling a bike. 306 hp? Pffft. BMW the winna winna chicken dinna.
Best. Post. Ever.
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      12-19-2013, 01:06 AM   #100
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I actually like the Lexus styling, it's weird, but at least it gets my attention. The only reason an F30 gets my attention is that I like to try to tell if it's an F10 or F30.

But I want a manual, and Lexus doesn't play that, so it's ATS or F30. BMW and Audi have sized themselves out of my preferred size range, and with the even larger new C and upcoming B9 A4, I really don't see much choice for reasonably sized four doors with three pedals. If Caddy can just get their engines right, and work a little more feel into the manual box (and add the ubiquitous 8s ZF), they should win a lot of sales. A 2GC would go a long way towards getting my interest back in BMW sedans, but I suspect it's a long ways off.

I forgot about Infiniti, a brand I used to think best understood how to compete with the 3er, but they've just gone off the crazy French deep end.
Have you actually seen and driven the new Q50? Its a fantastic car...
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      12-19-2013, 01:26 AM   #101
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If you don't think the 3 series has been the benchmark entry level luxury sedan then you are really in denial. That's not my opinion, it's what I've read in most articles concerning the segment over the last 15 years. Has Lexus finally made a better all around car than the 3er? Quite possibly, I've admittedly spent little time in either of the new models but I'm speaking historically.

You've identified the same weak spot that I have yet you shit on my opinion and call me a fanboy. Nobody said slow and lumbering, I would simply like a little more go. If BMW can make 300hp get to 60 in 4.5, why does that same journey take the Lexus a full second longer?

I will put opinion aside and let the numbers do the talking. You had said that the IS350 "destroyed" the 335i in the slalom so I will use your same source to refute exactly who destroyed who in that test.

Attachment 952992

Who exactly is the fanboy here?
Might want to double check that. That is ridiculously slow. Driver must of kept the traction control on.

Here is some reputable source but the website aren't working anymore since the articles are like 7 years old.

Quote:
Here's a reputable source, Road and Track, getting 0 to 60 in 4.9 in 90 degree weather:

http://archive.roadandtrack.com/asse...car_dp.pdf.pdf

Another reputable source, Car and Driver, measured 0 to 60 in 5.1 for the IS 350 which isn't sub 5 but it's in the same ball park:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...s_is350_page_8

The idea is to show you that multiple reputable 3rd party unbiased sources are getting similar numbers.

Owners have gotten as low as 0 to 60 in 4.7 (shkv40) bone stock:



With very light modifications (maybe 10-20 whp at most) people have measured 0 to 60 as low as 4.6 or 4.5 (juice14g)
Quote:
Here are some more sources that list 0 to 60 times for the IS 350, although they are arguably less "reputable" than Road and Track or Car and Drive -

http://www.torquestats.com/ : IS 350 0 to 60 in 4.9 seconds

http://www.zeroto60times.com/ : 2007 Lexus IS 350 0-60 mph 4.8 Quarter mile 13.3
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      12-19-2013, 07:56 AM   #102
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Might want to double check that. That is ridiculously slow. Driver must of kept the traction control on.

Here is some reputable source but the website aren't working anymore since the articles are like 7 years old.
That's all fine and dandy but you're only helping to prove my point. The car is slower than a 335i with roughly the same hp. It's pretty silly to bring up lightly tuned cars in this discussion when the N54 335i gains ~70hp with a single modification (tune).
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      12-19-2013, 08:37 AM   #103
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I actually like the Lexus styling, it's weird, but at least it gets my attention. The only reason an F30 gets my attention is that I like to try to tell if it's an F10 or F30.

From what I see, I couldn't even drive one if I wanted to, their dumb drive by wire is grounded.

But I want a manual, and Lexus doesn't play that, so it's ATS or F30. BMW and Audi have sized themselves out of my preferred size range, and with the even larger new C and upcoming B9 A4, I really don't see much choice for reasonably sized four doors with three pedals. If Caddy can just get their engines right, and work a little more feel into the manual box (and add the ubiquitous 8s ZF), they should win a lot of sales. A 2GC would go a long way towards getting my interest back in BMW sedans, but I suspect it's a long ways off.

I forgot about Infiniti, a brand I used to think best understood how to compete with the 3er, but they've just gone off the crazy French deep end.
Have you actually seen and driven the new Q50? Its a fantastic car...
Seen it, but haven't driven it. It's huge, I'd guess it's bigger than the old Q45. I don't like cars that large and soft. Lexus and Cadillac have taken a much more aggressive approach while Infiniti is slowly turning into another sad Acura.
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      12-19-2013, 08:56 AM   #104
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Seen it, but haven't driven it. It's huge, I'd guess it's bigger than the old Q45. I don't like cars that large and soft. Lexus and Cadillac have taken a much more aggressive approach while Infiniti is slowly turning into another sad Acura.
The Q50 is a foot shorter but very close in width and height to the last Q45 (2006). The IS350 is 4" shorter than the Q50 but width and height are the same.
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      12-19-2013, 10:19 AM   #105
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The Q50 is a foot shorter but very close in width and height to the last Q45 (2006). The IS350 is 4" shorter than the Q50 but width and height are the same.
Okay, I was wrong. It just looks huge and it's only near huge. I still don't like it. Infiniti started out with such clean, aesthetic style, and now they just seem to be trying to boil every other brand's language into their own. Plus, how hard can it really be to make a new, smoother engine?
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      12-19-2013, 11:13 AM   #106
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That's all fine and dandy but you're only helping to prove my point. The car is slower than a 335i with roughly the same hp. It's pretty silly to bring up lightly tuned cars in this discussion when the N54 335i gains ~70hp with a single modification (tune).
Why don't you say that about the Mercedes C 350? Obviously any turbocharged car will accelerate (or feel) faster because of more torque. See it the other way round, the 335i is only slightly faster despite having more torque and weighing less.
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      12-19-2013, 12:01 PM   #107
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Why don't you say that about the Mercedes C 350? Obviously any turbocharged car will accelerate (or feel) faster because of more torque. See it the other way round, the 335i is only slightly faster despite having more torque and weighing less.
The C350 is slower than both the Lexus and BMW.
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      12-19-2013, 12:03 PM   #108
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Why don't you say that about the Mercedes C 350? Obviously any turbocharged car will accelerate (or feel) faster because of more torque. See it the other way round, the 335i is only slightly faster despite having more torque and weighing less.
Also, only in a straight line. Anyone who considers that a "performance" victory needs to join the stop-light racers club and look at the Mustang GT.

The entire BMW lineup from the F30 to the F01 are soft as soft can be, even the M5 and M6.
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      12-19-2013, 12:07 PM   #109
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Also, only in a straight line. Anyone who considers that a "performance" victory needs to join the stop-light racers club and look at the Mustang GT.
It's a 22% advantage in straight line speed vs a 3% disadvantage in turning composure. Doing one thing *slightly* better doesn't make it a better overall performer.
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The entire BMW lineup from the F30 to the F01 are soft as soft can be, even the M5 and M6.
Not going to disagree with you there, though I can't speak about the M5 & M6.
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      12-19-2013, 12:22 PM   #110
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It's a 22% advantage in straight line speed vs a 3% disadvantage in turning composure. Doing one thing *slightly* better doesn't make it a better overall performer.
It's about a half second according to the various mags/sources that Inspired brought up. 4.5 vs 4.9-5.1. That is not a huge advantage on a track.

Honestly, have you actually logged track time before? I would hope so since you're a former Lotus owner. I'm not asking this to belittle you, but I have the feeling you severely under-estimate how much of an advantage a more composed care in terms of steering feel and suspension calibration would have over a car with a mere half second advantage 0-60.

I've literally seen C63 AMGs get dusted by Miata's at Buttonwillow track in California, and Buttonwillow has two significantly long straights on the 18th and 19th turns (2.7 mile configuration). Doesn't matter because the C63 AMG is too busy trying to keep its butt from the front, or its front from the wall, and the Miata is cleaving those corners like hot butter. What is the difference in 0-60 times between the 2 cars? It's like 4 seconds man.
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