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      02-17-2006, 07:18 PM   #1
luxman999
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Why BMW needs turbo for E54 engine to acheive 306hp?

If I'm not mistaken, BMW's new E54 3.5L turbo charged engine is rated for 306hp. If Lexus IS350's 3.5L naturally aspirated engine can produce identical 306hp without any turbo, why the heck BMW needs turbo charger in their new 3.5L engine to achieve 306hp??? If Lexus added turbo charger to their 3.5L engine, their output would be close to or even over 400hp. Am I missing something here???
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      02-17-2006, 07:21 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxman999
If I'm not mistaken, BMW's new E54 3.5L turbo charged engine is rated for 306hp. If Lexus IS350's 3.5L naturally aspirated engine can produce identical 306hp without any turbo, why the heck BMW needs turbo charger in their new 3.5L engine to achieve 306hp??? If Lexus added turbo charger to their 3.5L engine, their output would be close to or even over 400hp. Am I missing something here???
You are. It's 3.0L, not 3.5L.
And it's a bi-turbo - much more responsive engine. Give it better gearbox (e.g. ZSG) and you have a baby M3.
And 306HP (=302hp by US standard or 225kW - while IS350 has 228kW) is only one of several possible programmable power outputs. It's just a marketing decision what power label to stick on the engine.

335i will kill IS350 any time. Just wait and see.

Last edited by EnI; 02-17-2006 at 07:54 PM.
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      02-17-2006, 07:24 PM   #3
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HP numbers mean EVERYTHING!!
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      02-17-2006, 07:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by ward
HP numbers mean EVERYTHING!!
Than buy a 1001HP Bugatti Veyron.

Think quality, not quantity.
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      02-17-2006, 07:29 PM   #5
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If the new E54 engine only has 3.0 liter, then why name the car as 335i? Well, the current 325i has 3.0 liter engine, so it's just a way for BMW to differentiate their models. But I think these naming (325i, 330i and 335i) is very confusing if they all have 3.0 liter engines.

Honestly if I have to choose between 3.0 liter turbo engine with 306hp and 3.5 liter naturally-aspirated engine with 306hp, then I'll pick 3.5 liter engine, especially when their prices and performance are similar. This is no brainer. Why buy a turbo engine that is more complicated and more things to break down????

So what is the real advantage of turbo charged 3.0 liter engine over naturally-aspirated 3.5 liter? Does it have better performance, better reliability, better gas mileage or cost less? I think answers are clear NO to all. I really don't know what BMW guys are smoking these days.....
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      02-17-2006, 07:35 PM   #6
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BMW = underrated
Lexus = overrated
That is why
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      02-17-2006, 07:42 PM   #7
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[quote=luxman999]
Why buy a turbo engine that is more complicated and more things to break down????

QUOTE]

What about if the twin turbo had free service and the other engine did not? Would you still select the non turbo.
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      02-17-2006, 07:42 PM   #8
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What I don't get is why it doesnt get more than 400 newton? Isnt that pretty low for a 3 litre engine?
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      02-17-2006, 07:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxman999
If the new E54 engine only has 3.0 liter, then why name the car as 335i? Well, the current 325i has 3.0 liter engine, so it's just a way for BMW to differentiate their models. But I think these naming (325i, 330i and 335i) is very confusing if they all have 3.0 liter engines.

Honestly if I have to choose between 3.0 liter turbo engine with 306hp and 3.5 liter naturally-aspirated engine with 306hp, then I'll pick 3.5 liter engine, especially when their prices and performance are similar. This is no brainer. Why buy a turbo engine that is more complicated and more things to break down????

So what is the real advantage of turbo charged 3.0 liter engine over naturally-aspirated 3.5 liter? Does it have better performance, better reliability, better gas mileage or cost less? I think answers are clear NO to all. I really don't know what BMW guys are smoking these days.....
The 3.5L NA engine is not official yet. It's just rumors. We'll have to wait and see and then you can then decide yourself. And if it does going to come later, I bet will get either the 3.0L Bi-Turbo and the 3.5L NA engine. Not both.
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      02-17-2006, 07:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxman999
If the new E54 engine only has 3.0 liter, then why name the car as 335i? Well, the current 325i has 3.0 liter engine, so it's just a way for BMW to differentiate their models. But I think these naming (325i, 330i and 335i) is very confusing if they all have 3.0 liter engines.
Indeed. But they did not wanted to confuse with even more characters like "ii" or "ti" - imagine: 330xti or 330xii.

Quote:
Honestly if I have to choose between 3.0 liter turbo engine with 306hp and 3.5 liter naturally-aspirated engine with 306hp, then I'll pick 3.5 liter engine, especially when their prices and performance are similar. This is no brainer. Why buy turbo engine that is more complicated and more things to break down????
Turbo prejudice.


Quote:
So what is the real advantage of turbo charged 3.0 liter engine over naturally-aspirated 3.5 liter? Does it have better performance, better reliability, better gas mileage or cost less? I think answers are all NO to all. I really don't know what BMW guys are smoking these days.....
Better performance? Sure. Much more responsible.
Better gas millage? Same.
Cost less? Same.
Reliable? Same - Mind that Valvetronic or Direct Injection engines are very complicated as well, yet still quite reliable. It will be the same with turbo.

Also turbo engines are "step-by-step" engines: BMW can programme it differently for different models, or for different periods of products life cycle.
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      02-17-2006, 07:47 PM   #11
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400Nm is equivalent to 295 lb-ft. Not too bad, I'd say compared to the current 300Nm (220 lb-ft) of the NA 3.0L and the 400Nm comes earlier at 1800RPM. BMW Inline sixes are never known to produce massive torque.
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      02-17-2006, 07:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hula-Hula
What I don't get is why it doesnt get more than 400 newton? Isnt that pretty low for a 3 litre engine?
No it is not.
330i with 3.0L NA engine has 300Nm.
So 335i will have 33.33333% more torque.

Also: MB C3350 has 350Nm, Lexus IS350 has 375Nm.
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      02-17-2006, 08:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hula-Hula
What I don't get is why it doesnt get more than 400 newton? Isnt that pretty low for a 3 litre engine?
Newton? I'm thinking of some guy dressed up in Victorian attire with a wig and apple on his head.
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      02-17-2006, 08:32 PM   #14
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I think BMW is screwing up by turning to turbos so soon. If they did decide to up the displacement of the current engine to 3.5L like some of its competitors it would easily be the most powerful engine in its class.
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      02-17-2006, 08:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvwirelessguy
I think BMW is screwing up by turning to turbos so soon. If they did decide to up the displacement of the current engine to 3.5L like some of its competitors it would easily be the most powerful engine in its class.
So soon? Now they have a turbo - and an advantage. They can programme it to match, or even kill the competition. Perfect weapon.
3.5L engine could not give such room for manoeuvre like 3.0L turbo does.
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      02-17-2006, 08:40 PM   #16
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We have rehashed these ideas many times. Get used to the fact that a BMW 3.0 bi-turbo will be the best engine out there. 400 Nm! Gas mileage similar to current 330i. This is not the dark ages. I have been angling to get the bi-turbo here in the USA since it first appeared on the leaked letter. A 335si is my absolute dream car. It is so painful to wait and anticipate. Here's hoping a few of us will be driving them before x-mas!

Last edited by stressdoc; 02-17-2006 at 10:41 PM.
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      02-17-2006, 08:42 PM   #17
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weight!
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      02-17-2006, 08:46 PM   #18
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So, now I see the the reason for BMW NA hasitation to bring N54 in US. The famous US turbo prejudice.

If the prejudice appeared too strong the 335i will be at first made an additional model only, IMO. Or just offered in a coupe initially. It depends on many factors.
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      02-17-2006, 09:20 PM   #19
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Good reasons for the turbo ... efficiency, weight (to maintain their much vaunted 50:50), marketing appeal, MB's got forced induction why shouldn't BMW, packaging, experience with their T d engines, torque ... lookig forward to it.
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      02-17-2006, 10:33 PM   #20
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Doesn't the cost of 2 turbos, intercooler, and associated h/w-s/w pretty much guarantee that the 335 will be substantially more expensive, and create a three model 3 series lineup?? I think a BMW 335 could get a $5 grand premium over the IS-350, and creates a nice nitch for the 330.
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      02-17-2006, 10:35 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA
335i will kill IS350 any time. Just wait and see.
The 335i isn't even out yet. How much is it going to weigh? How aggressive will the gearing be? It's not just about peak horsepower.

The Lexus is getting to a 100 mph a full second quicker than the current 330i. It's going to take a very impressive 335i to close that gap.
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      02-17-2006, 10:47 PM   #22
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The 335si will be very impressive. W/ M-pack and ZSG -- a rocketship of the highest order this side of the E90 M3-2B... Right up there in endorphin-amping with the Z-coupe M and the Boxster-S.
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