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      11-27-2007, 02:58 PM   #23
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Sorry fatbloke, but I do drive an estate - so, as has been pointed out in other threads, I could get a coffin in the back - Carl Ill see if you fit?
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      11-27-2007, 03:03 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OliH View Post
As if by magic!! http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57640


The 286 quoted at factory, is at the flywheel not the wheels, hence, 222 at the wheels means 23% losses due to transmission, that how if you follow my maths you get to 348 at the flywheel _ I am working it out on the figures that you posted - I presume they came from Nick
Yes those figures were nicks, BUT i dont believe in a month of sundays the loses are as high as 23% if they are what your saying is a 335i makes 332bhp stock from the factory. As most of those make 270 at the wheels stock.

most 335i are 310-315 at the flywheel. Your calculations are 100% Right. This does not mean yours and nicks cars are car really making 350bhp at the flywheel tho.

The losses are 15% approx. DMS told me over the phone that the losses ''are 50bhp'' , not sure how they measure that but that would also be closer to what im saying.. They quote 334bhp which is approx 284bhp at the wheels.. 14 more than Peppernicks

but Nick calculated his with 23% loss to give him a higher flywheel figure!


Carlos
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      11-27-2007, 03:04 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by OliH View Post
Sorry fatbloke, but I do drive an estate - so, as has been pointed out in other threads, I could get a coffin in the back - Carl Ill see if you fit?
Im only small mate. so would fit quite easily
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      11-27-2007, 03:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
Yes those figures were nicks, BUT i dont believe in a month of sundays the loses are as high as 23% if they are what your saying is a 335i makes 332bhp stock from the factory. As most of those make 270 at the wheels stock.

most 335i are 310-315 at the flywheel. Your calculations are 100% Right. This does not mean that the car is really making 350bhp at the flywheel tho.

The losses are 15% approx. DMS told me over the phone that the losses ''are 50bhp'' , not sure how they measure that but that would also be closer to what im saying.. They quote 334bhp which is approx 284bhp at the wheels.. 14 more than Peppernicks

but Nick calculated his with 23% loss to give him a higher flywheel figure!


Carlos
I give up Carl- Go back through everything you've said re-do the calculations, and you might realise what Im saying. Working those figure out give a 23% loss, which through an autobox and torque convertor is more like it - Work it out. Nick obviously got those figures off a rolling road.

Oh and just beacuse its what you' are saying' doesnt mean its right - remember cars are my business!!!

Someone help?!?!
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      11-27-2007, 03:13 PM   #27
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OliH Sorry fatbloke, but I do drive an estate - so, as has been pointed out in other threads, I could get a coffin in the back - Carl Ill see if you fit?
If he don't fit we could modify Carlos:

5 BHP in each leg
20 BHP in the torso
250 BHP in the head

You could pop his head up front with you OliH!
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      11-27-2007, 03:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OliH View Post
I give up Carl- Go back through everything you've said re-do the calculations, and you might realise what Im saying. Working those figure out give a 23% loss, which through an autobox and torque convertor is more like it - Work it out. Nick obviously got those figures off a rolling road.

Oh and just beacuse its what you' are saying' doesnt mean its right - remember cars are my business!!!

Someone help?!?!
All im saying is DMS and most people in the tuning world say approx losses for an Auto are 15% give or take a %. Not 23% thats all im saying.

Your calculations are right, so are mine.. but both with different losses accounted for..

I dont believe an Auto has losses of 20 odd %. Ask in the USA forum i think they say its 11-12% for a Manwel, and 15-16% for an Auto Mo Fo.


Carlos
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      11-27-2007, 03:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
dxb335d Quote:
All im saying is DMS and most people in the tuning world say approx losses for an Auto are 15% give or take a %. Not 23% thats all im saying.
Your calculations are right, so are mine.. but both with different losses accounted for..
I dont believe an Auto has losses of 20 odd %. Ask in the USA forum i think they say its 11-12% for a Manwel, and 15-16% for an Auto Mo Fo.
Carlos
Yeah,but,no,but--- are you reading about petrol cars in the US forums Carlos,most of the Yankee cars are petrol,the figures and cars being discussed above are diesels,I would imagine there is a difference,yes?

Or am I being a muppet,it would not be the first time or last!
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      11-27-2007, 03:28 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Hotcoupe View Post
Yeah,but,no,but--- are you reading about petrol cars in the US forums Carlos,most of the Yankee cars are petrol,the figures and cars being discussed above are diesels,I would imagine there is a difference,yes?

Or am I being a muppet,it would not be the first time or last!
An Auto is an Auto... A 335i Auto and a 335d Auto will have the same losses

there might be slight differences, a percent or so but not majorly different.
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      11-27-2007, 03:31 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
Your calculations are right, so are mine.. but both with different losses accounted for..
Ive used your figures for the calculations, so how can you be right also

Where do you get your drivetrain losses from?

I think you'll find approx 12- 15% for a manual and 20- 25% for an auto - Google it, there loads of examples of this

I think Ill agree to disagree, you are a nightmare

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      11-27-2007, 03:32 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OliH View Post

I think Ill agree to disagree, you are a nightmare


You love me really.
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      11-27-2007, 03:34 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
You cant get Accurate flywheel/crank figures on auto cars.

Im guestimating on peppernicks figure of 270bhp (15% loss) 310.5bhp, sounds a bit low. but still a great improvement!!

Nicks went from 222-270 at the wheels! I would say yours will be the same.


Carlos
Just go back to this and do your calc's - Nicks went from 222 at the wheels/ 286 at the flywheel(This is the factory quoted figure) to 270 at the wheels to.....you work out the rest its easy

Right thats it from me
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      11-27-2007, 03:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
You love me really.
yeah right!?
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      11-27-2007, 03:37 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OliH View Post
Just go back to this and do your calc's - Nicks went from 222 at the wheels/ 286 at the flywheel(This is the factory quoted figure) to 270 at the wheels to.....you work out the rest its easy

Right thats it from me
I know, but what im saying is, we dont know that his car was actually 286bhp at the flywheel. We have no way of measuring this.

I believe the losses are 15%. 15% of 270bhp is 40.5bhp

that + 270bhp = 310.5bhp
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      11-27-2007, 03:38 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by OliH View Post
yeah right!?
Yeah you do....

unless you were drunk when you text me last night
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      11-27-2007, 03:49 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
I know, but what im saying is, we dont know that his car was actually 286bhp at the flywheel. We have no way of measuring this.

I believe the losses are 15%. 15% of 270bhp is 40.5bhp

that + 270bhp = 310.5bhp

286 is the quoted factory output!!!!!! - At the flywheel, why would we dis-believe this

Someone help me on this - Who has had RR experience??

Autogearbox's have more than 15% losses - Now go and do some research

perhaps IF you ever get a remap, suddenly you will be arguing that a 335D remapped makes 390BHP and does 1/4 mile in 9 secs?
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      11-27-2007, 04:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
OliH Quote:
perhaps IF you ever get a remap, suddenly you will be arguing that a 335D remapped makes 390BHP and does 1/4 mile in 9 secs?
No 'if's' any more OliH,that's a given
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      11-27-2007, 05:11 PM   #39
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It's quite amazing really.

One simple question asn six or seven replies later it's armageddon.

Who needs telly?
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      11-28-2007, 06:12 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Fatbloke View Post
It's quite amazing really.

One simple question asn six or seven replies later it's armageddon.

Who needs telly?
Myself and OliH, have been dating for 8 months now. We have a very intense relationship. We fall out alot but our ''Kiss and make up's'' are amazing


Welcome to the ''E90.post.com Entertainment Area''
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      11-28-2007, 06:56 AM   #41
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...sorry to poke my nose in



BMW have quoted 12,7% loss on the Manual, 15% loss on the auto.

If it was more that 15% they wouldn't be able to keep up with the Manuals, and often in a race they have been known to be slightly quicker, what with the fast changes and the continuous Boost hold, which can't happen on the Manual.

SO

If the engine is rated at 306 BHP as per my 335i brochure, it should, deliver about 306x0.85 for the auto or 260 HP at the wheels.

This agrees nicely with many of the Dyno charts I've been seeing which run from anywhere at 255 to 275 hp at the wheels.

Now to go back to BHP you simply divide by the inverse of the loss, so

260/0.85 = 305 BHP.

Easy really :-)

Just insert your wheel HP figure or your BHP to suit.

SJ
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      11-28-2007, 12:53 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serjames View Post
...sorry to poke my nose in



BMW have quoted 12,7% loss on the Manual, 15% loss on the auto.

If it was more that 15% they wouldn't be able to keep up with the Manuals, and often in a race they have been known to be slightly quicker, what with the fast changes and the continuous Boost hold, which can't happen on the Manual.

SO

If the engine is rated at 306 BHP as per my 335i brochure, it should, deliver about 306x0.85 for the auto or 260 HP at the wheels.

This agrees nicely with many of the Dyno charts I've been seeing which run from anywhere at 255 to 275 hp at the wheels.

Now to go back to BHP you simply divide by the inverse of the loss, so

260/0.85 = 305 BHP.

Easy really :-)

Just insert your wheel HP figure or your BHP to suit.

SJ

thanks SJ!!
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