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      12-06-2007, 10:32 AM   #1
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Who would Jesus kill?

I am interested in having a legitimate and friendly discussion with resident Christians on how they can/can't rectify the disparity between "Thou shall not kill" and state-sanctioned killing. (Death penalty, the war, etc...)

I hear a lot about how the United States "is a Christian nation", and yet its actions run completely counter to some of the most basic tenants of the faith.

Anyone feel like discussing?
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      12-06-2007, 11:12 AM   #2
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Hebraic Insight…

The Jewish sages note that the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war. Hence the KJV translation as “thou shalt not kill” is too broad.
taken from http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html
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      12-06-2007, 11:15 AM   #3
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I think your trying to beat 2 totally differnt subjects together and that just isnt right!!
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      12-06-2007, 03:30 PM   #4
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Jesus would probably not intentionally kill anyone, just as any other average Jewish person living in Palestine during his time. Also, Jesus would have been really surprised to see how successfully his name was manipualted with to cause mass schizophrenia in the Wsetern countries, which still very much prevails and rules in the U.S.
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      12-06-2007, 03:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
Do you think contemporary Christians know about the idea of ratsakh?
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      12-06-2007, 03:55 PM   #6
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I think your trying to beat 2 totally differnt subjects together and that just isnt right!!
Can you expand a bit? What 2 subjects?
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      12-06-2007, 04:46 PM   #7
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Why doesn’t it surprise me that someone from Boulder, CO started this thread?? That town is almost as secular progressive as San Francisco!!

Here you go:

The sixth of the Ten Commandants, "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13), can raise eyebrows in an era when wars in foreign countries continue, gunmen go on rampages, serial killers make headlines and murderers are executed by governments.

Today, many Christians interpret "Thou shalt not kill" to mean "Thou shalt not murder," several members of the Salt Lake Theological Seminary agree.

"Homicide signifies, in general, the killing of a human being," the Catholic Encyclopedia states. "In practice, however, the word has come to mean the unjust taking away of human life, perpetrated by one distinct from the victim and acting in a private capacity. For the purposes of this article, therefore, account is not taken of suicide, nor of the carrying out of the penalty of death by due process of law.

"The direct killing of an innocent person is, of course, to be reckoned among the most grievous of sins. It is said to happen directly when the death of the person is viewed either as an end attractive in itself, or at any rate is chosen as a means to an end," the Encyclopedia says.

Personal protection is often also considered a justification. The Encyclopedia states: "For the protection of one's own or another's life, limb, chastity or valuables of some moment, it is agreed on all sides that it is lawful for anyone to repel violence with violence, even to the point of taking away the life of the unjust assailant, provided always that in so doing the limits of a blameless defense be not exceeded."

"You are permitted to kill in self-defense," Rabbi Joshua M. Aaronson of Park City's Temple Har Shalom said. "In fact, you are obligated to kill any person that clearly intends your own death. Suicide is more complicated and is clearly prohibited by Jewish law, although many rulings of the rabbis mitigate that, and in general the survivors are treated with great compassion and the deceased is also treated gently. Other gray areas require a rather lengthy discussion.

"Animals are a different category entirely. There is a law about kindness to animals, but clearly killing animals is permitted in Jewish law, though only for a specific purpose (food)," Rabbi Aaronson said.

"'Thou shalt not kill' exhorts us to remember that life has sacred worth," the Rev. Tom Goldsmith of Salt Lake's First Unitarian Church said. "Suicide and animal slaughter are a matter of individual conscience. You are not hurting another human being, for which this commandment was intended. However, we are forced to reflect on the morality of all our murderous actions, even if they pertain to ourselves or animals. How widely this admonishment applies raises an interesting question. Like so much in the Bible, nothing is definitive but forces us to think hard about everything we do in our lives."

"To understand what is meant by this command we must first understand that life is sacred. Each of us (humans) are inherently valuable because we are created in God's image" (Genesis 1:26-27 ,Luke 12:6-7), Terry Long, senior pastor at Calvary Chapel of Salt Lake, said.

Regarding suicide, he said man's body is a temple of God (1 Cor. 6:19-20). "Suicide is murder turned inward. You are murdering yourself. Is it the unpardonable sin? No! Is murder the unpardonable sin? No! But it is a sin."
Pastor Long also said abortion allows forgiveness from God if and when we make mistakes/bad choices.

He said the Sixth Commandment does not pertain to capital punishment, nor does it prohibit going to war.
"God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is necessary to defend ourselves, to protect freedom of the innocent/defenseless and children, he said.

Pastor Long said the prohibition also does not include killing animals, based on Genesis 9:3 and Acts 10:13.
Jehovah's Witnesses take a broader view of the commandment. "You don't kill another human," Richard Wolf, an elder in the North Salt Lake congregation, said. That includes abortion and war.

Witnesses believe the Mosaic law authorized taking life under certain circumstances or going to war in Old Testament times. However, they believe that is not allowed today, based on Christ's teachings of the two great laws — love God and love one another, according to the Watchtower.

Also, Witnesses believe ancient Israel was involved in "holy wars of Jehovah," while today's "carnal warfare" is not sanctioned by God.

They also feel hatred is a precursor to murder, notes the Watchtower.

Regarding animals, Jehovah's Witnesses believe, "Animal life is also sacred to the Creator. A Christian may kill animals to provide food and clothing or to protect himself from sickness and danger. (Genesis 3:21, 9:3; Exodus 21:28) But it is wrong to mistreat animals or to kill them just for sport or pleasure (Proverbs 12:10)," according to the Watchtower Web site.

"In that day and time, it applied to murder," the Rev. Steve Goodier of Christ United Methodist Church of Salt Lake said. "Today, we can see it as meaning more — that life is to be enhanced and preserved. Our role is to be responsible caretakers of life on this planet. Irresponsible taking of life, whether it is through suicide, slaughter of animals or the mistreatment of animals or people, is to be shunned."

Arthur R. Bassett wrote an in-depth article on "Thou shalt not kill" in the Ensign Magazine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in August of 1994 and noted the larger issue of violence.

"The Sixth Commandment's injunction to avoid murder is the minimum standard. The Savior's example points to a higher level: enhancement of life for others," he wrote.
"Though comparatively few mortals are seriously tempted to kill, many of us are more deeply affected by violations of this law than we realize. Peace continues to elude us in a world where killing is often an instrument of political strategy or personal gain. We seem to need a modern smoking Sinai from whose heights God might thunder down in power again: 'Thou shalt not kill."'

The Doctrine and Covenants, modern scripture for LDS Church members, states in section 56, verse six:: "Thou shalt not ... kill, nor do anything like unto it."
This could refer to suicide, abortion, mercy killing and even a knowing transmittal of the AIDS virus, Bassett wrote.

Bassett also quoted Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve, addressing suicide:
"I feel that judgment for sin is not always as cut-and-dried as some of us seem to think," Elder Ballard said. "The Lord said, 'Thou shalt not kill.' Does that mean that every person who kills will be condemned, no matter the circumstances? Civil law recognizes that there are gradations in this matter — from accidental manslaughter to self-defense to first-degree murder. I feel that the Lord also recognizes differences in intent and circumstance."

What about the killing of animals?
"I have always been intrigued by a lesson that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave to the brethren who marched with Zion's Camp," Bassett wrote in his Ensign article. "That group, organized in response to revelation, was prepared to face armed conflict with the persecutors of the members of the church in Missouri — to give their lives or to take lives in defense of others, if necessary.

"Yet the prophet prevented them even from killing three rattlesnakes they found in one of their camps. 'Let them alone — don't hurt them!' he commanded. 'How will the serpent ever lose its venom, while the servants of God possess the same disposition and continue to make war upon it? Men must become harmless before the brute creation, and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the sucking child can play with the serpent in safety."'
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      12-06-2007, 06:14 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Why doesn’t it surprise me that someone from Boulder, CO started this thread?? That town is almost as secular progressive as San Francisco!!
"Secular Progressive"? You must be an O'Reilly fan.

Thanks for posting that article. I was kind of hoping for a discussion, rather than a copy/paste-athon.

That said, I feel like this part came closest to answering my question:

Quote:
"I feel that judgment for sin is not always as cut-and-dried as some of us seem to think," Elder Ballard said. "The Lord said, 'Thou shalt not kill.' Does that mean that every person who kills will be condemned, no matter the circumstances? Civil law recognizes that there are gradations in this matter — from accidental manslaughter to self-defense to first-degree murder. I feel that the Lord also recognizes differences in intent and circumstance."
So is that the general line of thought? That there are differences in intent and circumstance?
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      12-06-2007, 06:15 PM   #9
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      12-06-2007, 10:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
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.....So is that the general line of thought? That there are differences in intent and circumstance?
I believe so. It is very difficult to take a litteral translation of anything in the bible - you must study the culture of the period, as well as the evolution of the languages and translations through the years to understand how the meaning of words spoken 2000+ years ago relate to what is happening today.

God clearly commands his people in to war on numerous occasions. I think that as you peel back the meaning of the original language and words used in the ten commandments, and trace their meaining and translation through history, you'll get someting a little more concise than "kill". Unfortunately I'm not able to do this.

As a christian I am against the death penalty, but I think there are bigger issues facing our country and cultrue at this point.
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      12-06-2007, 11:00 PM   #11
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Do you think contemporary Christians know about the idea of ratsakh?
i would hope so. but i don't get the point of this question. is there something else you're wanting to ask?
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      12-06-2007, 11:40 PM   #12
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i would hope so. but i don't get the point of this question. is there something else you're wanting to ask?
No, I just didn't know if it was common knowledge.
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      12-06-2007, 11:48 PM   #13
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JC would kill all the f*in infedels, just like Allah would.
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      12-07-2007, 12:07 AM   #14
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      12-07-2007, 12:30 AM   #15
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No, I just didn't know if it was common knowledge.
oh ok. yeah, i mean if you just read it (also depending on which translation you read) one might take it to mean any killing. but a person who studies the bible should know what it really means.

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      12-07-2007, 11:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
oh ok. yeah, i mean if you just read it (also depending on which translation you read) one might take it to mean any killing. but a person who studies the bible should know what it really means.

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      12-07-2007, 11:44 PM   #17
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He first kill would definitely be Charlie Weis for the piss poor season Notre Dame has had this year...
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      12-08-2007, 09:14 PM   #18
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He first kill would definitely be Charlie Weis for the piss poor season Notre Dame has had this year...
God might be OK...(there is no evidence of his/her's/it's existance, and man made books don't count), but his/her's/it's ground crew SUCKS big time......
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      12-15-2007, 04:06 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by octaveshift View Post
I am interested in having a legitimate and friendly discussion with resident Christians on how they can/can't rectify the disparity between "Thou shall not kill" and state-sanctioned killing. (Death penalty, the war, etc...)

I hear a lot about how the United States "is a Christian nation", and yet its actions run completely counter to some of the most basic tenants of the faith.

Anyone feel like discussing?

octaveshift, here's the way I see it...

God himself installed capital punishment in Genesis 9:6.

Note, this had nothing to do with Christianity or even the Mosaic law, it was before the law.

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Gen. 9:6

People have funny ideas about who God will kill. God has a love/hate relationship with sinners. Scripture says God is love, and God loves the world (John 3:16) but it also says the Lord is a man of war. The truth is, God is omnipotent, He can and will kill anyone at any time He wants. He also killed almost everyone on Earth at one time as shown in Genesis 6, but it should be noted this was a result of a population that was filled with violence:

"And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." Gen. 6:13

Please note: After the flood, the first thing God told Noah (while still on Ararat) was, "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." This installment of capital punishment was important and it is still important today.

Please note: God provided a way to avoid this terrible judgement. (only one way, see John 14:6). If people would have repented, God would have had Noah build more arks!

Lastly, Jesus came to Earth as the Lamb of God last time, but next time He will return as the Lion of Judah, and He will utterly destroy the nations that rise up against Israel! (Rev. 19)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...20;&version=9;

More below from Fred Thompson, sorry for the cut and paste...


Common sense on capital punishment
By 2008 GOP Candidate Fred Thompson


"Our country seems to be able to come to the right conclusions over time, even when we’re being told over and over again that we're wrong. When I say the right conclusions, by the way, I mean conclusions supported by honest research and real evidence. I've got a good example -- capital punishment.

For decades, the self-proclaimed smart kids have been telling us that the death penalty just doesn't work. The people with the top jobs in academia and the news business have scoffed at the American people's insistence that executions prevent murder.

On the very surface of the issue, it would seem pretty obvious that an executed murderer can't murder anybody else -- but we’ve been told that we were wrong even about that. You've undoubtedly heard the old saw about executions actually motivating murderers to kill, presumably because what murderers really want is attention. The argument is a stretch, demanding that we believe that killers aren’t deterred by the consequences of being caught and executed. Without evidence, though, it's hard to rebut.

In the last few years, however, serious researchers have applied themselves to finding the evidence. Criminologists and economists have gathered and analyzed a mountain of data, and many of them were surprised by what they found. Now, they’ve published papers in respected academic journals that are establishing an unexpected consensus.

The reliable two-thirds of Americans who have always supported the death penalty probably wouldn't be surprised to find out that study after study has shown that the death penalty deters murders. Some studies show really dramatic effects, with each execution of a murderer deterring as many as 18 or more murders. That’s according to Emory University professors, who found as well that delaying execution also leads to further murders. Most studies have concluded that some number of murders between three and 18 are prevented for every application of capital punishment.

I guess the most surprising thing to me was seeing an article about these findings just a few weeks ago by the Associated Press. The most interesting quote was from a well-known opponent of capital punishment who looked at the evidence and said, “Abolitionists or others, like me, who are skeptical about the death penalty haven't given adequate consideration to the possibility that innocent life is saved by the death penalty."

Certainly, the use of DNA evidence to clear long-held prisoners from murder charges proves that we need to be more careful about handing out death sentences; and science must be used even more and earlier in the criminal process to protect the innocent and convict the guilty. However, these studies are important in properly analyzing the effect of the death penalty."
http://patriotpost.us/opinion/entry.asp?entry_id=22682
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      12-16-2007, 02:15 AM   #20
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It costs more to kill an inmate than to give them life in prison. I think life in prison would be a worse penalty than death. We do need to cut out cable tv, radio, etc... to make prison more uncomfortable.
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      12-17-2007, 01:55 AM   #21
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The same people the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus would kill.
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      12-18-2007, 03:29 PM   #22
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That was probably one of the most funny posts I have seen.
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