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      12-27-2007, 06:53 PM   #23
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Would Pakistan actually benefit if the government were run anything like a Western style democracy? Or would that be more troublesome that the status quo?
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      12-27-2007, 09:15 PM   #24
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      12-27-2007, 10:12 PM   #25
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George Bush:

Laura and I extend our deepest condolences to the family of Benazir Bhutto, to her friends, to her supporters. We send our condolences to the families of the others who were killed in today's violence. And we send our condolences to all the people of Pakistan on this tragic occasion.

The United States strongly condemns this cowardly act by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy. Those who committed this crime must be brought to justice. Mrs. Bhutto served her nation twice as Prime Minister and she knew that her return to Pakistan earlier this year put her life at risk. Yet she refused to allow assassins to dictate the course of her country.

We stand with the people of Pakistan in their struggle against the forces of terror and extremism. We urge them to honor Benazir Bhutto's memory by continuing with the democratic process for which she so bravely gave her life.
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      12-27-2007, 11:15 PM   #26
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John Bolton interview on Fox News

Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:40 PM

Former U.N. ambassador John Bolton on the assassination of Pakistan opposition leader Benazir Bhutto:

“In part the United States is responsible for this by pushing (Pakistani President Pervez) Musharraf to try and cut a deal with Benazir Bhutto, by encouraging her to go back in the country, by trying to act like we could have a democratic election campaign in a situation with great instability,” Bolton told the Fox News Channel this afternoon.

“I think the notion that by bringing Benazir Bhutto back to Pakistan we could facilitate moving to a Democratic system has obviously turned out to be incorrect.”

He said he thinks “this tragedy should guide us now as to what we do next, which I think ought to be declaring a time-out on internal politics; let’s re-stabilize, it probably will require a period of martial law.” “But let’s keep our eyes on the prize. For the United States, that’s the security of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons.”

“Let’s not forget either the failed assassination attempt against (former Pakistani Prime Minister) Nawaz Sharif today.”

“So it’s obviously the intention of somebody, if those attempts were linked, to throw things into greater instability. That is the circumstance under which you could have a radical Islamicist regime come to power and get control of those nuclear weapons. That’s absolutely the worst-case scenario.”

The former American ambassador to the United Nations says he has no confidence in the political leaders’ ability to secure Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal.

“The issue is who can keep secure command and control over the nuclear weapons. I don’t think any of the civilian leaders could have done that which is why I didn’t see facilitating their return to power was in U.S. interests.”

“Right now I think you’ve got the risk that the military itself will fragment. It’s possible that elements of the military were involved in this, the radical Islamicist elements, and the last thing we need to do is have a further deterioration of the situation which I think continued politicking would almost certainly bring about.”

“The idea we should be pushing Pakistan into elections next month, I think is fraught with peril for the United States,” Bolton told Fox.
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      12-28-2007, 10:52 AM   #27
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Ah, come on, don't you want all the world to be like the US??!!!!

When my parents were there 40 years ago, just trying to improve the life of a few in rural areas, by bringing information on new farming techniques to reduce starvation, it really didn't work too well. What's to make anyone think that if Peace Corps couldn't change farming techniques, that diplomatic pressure can change the ruling class?????
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      12-28-2007, 03:26 PM   #28
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If Benazir Bhutto was not killed by gunshots, but rather by hitting her head, does this change the situation for the gunman? Will he no longer be considered to have an express ticket to paradise with 72 virgins since he didn't die in taking the life of an enemy?
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      12-28-2007, 04:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
it is, IMHO, very probable too that Musharraf wanted to get rid of her. he kinda had to bring her home to quench some of the anger against him, but once he's in power again he probably wanted to kill her anyway. this way he can be the only power in pakistan, and be the dictator that he is
Yep I agree. Today we hear that it was Al-Queda. My view is that we'll never really know because noone can be trusted anymore. My god, what a sad world we live in. As we speak, a suicide blast killed another 6 people in pakistan today and a seperate attack killed another 16. It's sad to see this.
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      12-28-2007, 04:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
If Benazir Bhutto was not killed by gunshots, but rather by hitting her head, does this change the situation for the gunman? Will he no longer be considered to have an express ticket to paradise with 72 virgins since he didn't die in taking the life of an enemy?
Are you for real? I cant believe you're even asking that ESPECIALLY in times like this
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      12-28-2007, 04:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Are you for real? I cant believe you're even asking that ESPECIALLY in times like this
What?

This is a reasonable question. Perhaps I ask it in terms that are not spot on. I'll rephrase the question.

Since Al Qaeda is claiming credit for killing Benazir Bhutto, is it fair to assume that the gunman (who also exploded himself) thought he would cover the sins of his life and go to heaven(?) because he died during the successful slaying of an enemy of his brand of Islam?

If that assumption is correct, then if it turned out that Bhutto didn't die from his gunshots, is it a reasonable argument that the gunman would not have died in slaying an enemy of his brand of Islam?

If he simply killed the innocent bystanders and not the target, they wouldn't count toward his ticket to paradise, would they?

By saying that Bhutto was not killed by the gunshots and not by the exploding man, but rather by her own action to duck out of the way, then would this take some of the victory away from Al Qaeda and their esteem for the gunman?

I don't understand Islam, Jihad, or terrorist minds very well. I am speculating on why it would now be said that Bhutto didn't get shot, but died from bumping her head. If it is not true that the head bump didn't kill her, then there must be some specific motivation to tell the lie. Any thoughts on that?

I have no intention of offending Muslims in asking questions. I merely am asking this question the best I know how while I don't know how a Muslim might ask it (or if it would be asked, or whether it is even relevant).
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      12-28-2007, 05:13 PM   #32
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Okay sorry. You have my apologies. I read your post 5 times but it seemed sarcastic and offensive.

I'll try explain as best as I can. Firstly, I do not accept the killing of Bhutto to be acceptable in Islam in any way at all. We both know that IF it was Al Queda then they are only killing her because of her policies against them. I'm not entirely sure myself if her motives are good, but from an Islamic perspective her killing is NOT acceptable.

Also, I see that you spoke of "his brand of Islam". Please remember that there is ONLY 1 version of Islam. That is those who follow the Quran and example of the Holy Prophet (SAW). Sadly our Holy Prophet (SAW) predicted correctly when he told us we would divide into many many sects. This is very sad because Islam is supposed to unite people and not divide them.

Regarding Jihad, I'll also explain that. Jihad actually just means a struggle. The Holy Prophet (SAW) has told us the best Jihads many times. Once he told us the best Jihad is the perfect Hajj because it is such a huge sacrifice and is difficult. He also told us that obeying our parents is a type of Jihad. etc.

Really Jihad is just a struggle IN THE WAY OF ALLAH. Yes you might need to fight oppressors, but the killing of innocent lives is NEVER accepted in Islam! The only time it might be acceptable is if your suicide attack prevents the attack on innocent muslims. If you are just randomly attacking out of hatred then Islam cannot accept this at all...and Allah knows best.

Quote:
I don't understand Islam, Jihad, or terrorist minds very well. I am speculating on why it would now be said that Bhutto didn't get shot, but died from bumping her head. If it is not true that the head bump didn't kill her, then there must be some specific motivation to tell the lie. Any thoughts on that?
Regarding motivation for the "lie", I agree. There would need to be a reason for the "lie" which I cant seem to think of. Any ideas people?

Quote:
If he simply killed the innocent bystanders and not the target, they wouldn't count toward his ticket to paradise, would they?
In normal Jihad circumstance, and I mean Jihad not random bomb blasts, then if you failed I'm positive that Allah would still give you reward for it. Once the Holy Prophet (SAW) narrated a story in which a murderer wanted to become good. He moved town to town to find out how to achieve this. Upon advice from someone, he decided to move to a good town so that he could find someone that will help become pious and achieve forgiveness. However, he died on the way but Allah still granted him heaven. If you read the Quran you will see that Allah judges us on our intentions and our heart.
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      12-28-2007, 05:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
In normal Jihad circumstance, and I mean Jihad not random bomb blasts, then if you failed I'm positive that Allah would still give you reward for it. Once the Holy Prophet (SAW) narrated a story in which a murderer wanted to become good. He moved town to town to find out how to achieve this. Upon advice from someone, he decided to move to a good town so that he could find someone that will help become pious and achieve forgiveness. However, he died on the way but Allah still granted him heaven. If you read the Quran you will see that Allah judges us on our intentions and our heart.
Then if Al Qaeda thought that this assasination attempt would help the assassin get to heaven, then it is merely anecdotal whether he actually killed her with bullets, or incidentally through her own act of avoidance.

I can't think of another motivation to say the assassin didn't kill her himself. Maybe it is true. Or maybe there is some other reason to claim it.
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      12-28-2007, 05:45 PM   #34
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Who Fu%*&*ng cares!!!!
I know, some horny bustard that wants to have 40 virgins. :-)
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      12-28-2007, 06:25 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by phatr1s View Post
Who Fu%*&*ng cares!!!!
I know, some horny bustard that wants to have 40 virgins. :-)
You obviously do care otherwise you wouldnt post.

ps.

Hint: take your stupid comments elsewhere
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      12-30-2007, 11:27 AM   #36
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IF the party that still wants peace and/or democracy can claim that she died on her own, and NOT as a result of the attackers, then they take some credibility from whomever it was, and reduce the ability to recruit others, maybe?

My dad had an idea that the ORIGINAL statement from a DR. is probably the closest to the truth. After that, it was all politically driven. Kinda like that single bullet that killed JFK
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      12-30-2007, 04:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Yep I agree. Today we hear that it was Al-Queda. My view is that we'll never really know because noone can be trusted anymore. My god, what a sad world we live in. As we speak, a suicide blast killed another 6 people in pakistan today and a seperate attack killed another 16. It's sad to see this.
I thought Musharraf was Al Qaeda enemy and has arrested a few high AQ officers out there. Why would they go after his opponent? Why not him? One thing we all know is that Musharraf did not like her...
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      12-30-2007, 06:01 PM   #38
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I thought Musharraf was Al Qaeda enemy and has arrested a few high AQ officers out there. Why would they go after his opponent? Why not him? One thing we all know is that Musharraf did not like her...
Yeah you're right there, however, Bhutto changed her stance on the taliban. She's completely against them now and for that they want her blood. She's also made promises to hand Dr. Qadeer Khan over to the IAEA for questioning.
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      12-30-2007, 10:33 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Yeah you're right there, however, Bhutto changed her stance on the taliban. She's completely against them now and for that they want her blood. She's also made promises to hand Dr. Qadeer Khan over to the IAEA for questioning.
I am still surprised that Musharraf is alive...after all USA ass kissing... Must be that his security is way better than Bhutto's was...
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