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      02-07-2008, 03:55 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by magillagorilla View Post
Great thread.

I'm in the process of learning to drive a manual trying to make my mind up between step and stick on my 335i order. Unfortunately, Seattle's hills make a stick more of an issue that it otherwise would be. Had a series of stalls on a hill yesterday afternoon that was brutally embarrassing and seemed to last forever. I can still remember the look on the woman's face who was sitting in a different car waiting for me to get up the hill. UGH!

While hill starts and regular driving are getting manageable at this point, I seriously have not been able to get the car in reverse without stalling it. Fear I guess is that I'm going to go flying backwards if I give the car too much gas. I can't modulate the speed properly so I react by not giving the car enough gas, resulting in a stall.

I take it that what I should be doing is only partially letting go of the clutch?
Thanks for the , I hope you don't let that incident from yesterday deter you from enjoying your MT or regret getting MT. I think if you are truely new at MT, you need more time behind the wheel. Once you are comfortable, I think you will really enjoy the MT. I think your problem like that of yesterday has a little to do with nervousness. But then I have never been to Seattle so I don't know how steep those hills are (like San Francisco maybe?).
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      02-07-2008, 03:56 PM   #68
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What if it's a pretty significant rev jump: from 6th to 4th or even to 3rd maybe? Will the internal synchro's still be fine?

From that M5 training vid, the guy seemed to agree with you that you really don't NEED to double-clutch in normal down shifting, but he did seem to imply that there was some minor benefit.
Dare I say it but if you suddenly need to shift from 6th to 4th you probably haven't been reading the road right. If you're looking to overtake then you should be in the right gear before you move out which might, in your example, have been 5th.
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      02-07-2008, 03:57 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by nub340 View Post
- To FEATHER or SLIP means letting the clutch up only a little bit to get only a little bit of movement.
Ok so I guess I don't "ride" the clutch while reversing out of my driveway but, I "feather" it instead..
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      02-07-2008, 03:59 PM   #70
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Ok so I guess I don't "ride" the clutch while reversing out of my driveway but, I "feather" it instead..
Exact-a-mundo! And I do it too.
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      02-07-2008, 03:59 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by magillagorilla View Post
Great thread.

I'm in the process of learning to drive a manual trying to make my mind up between step and stick on my 335i order. Unfortunately, Seattle's hills make a stick more of an issue that it otherwise would be. Had a series of stalls on a hill yesterday afternoon that was brutally embarrassing and seemed to last forever. I can still remember the look on the woman's face who was sitting in a different car waiting for me to get up the hill. UGH!

While hill starts and regular driving are getting manageable at this point, I seriously have not been able to get the car in reverse without stalling it. Fear I guess is that I'm going to go flying backwards if I give the car too much gas. I can't modulate the speed properly so I react by not giving the car enough gas, resulting in a stall.

I take it that what I should be doing is only partially letting go of the clutch?
The 335i has a "great" (depends on who you ask) feature that breaks the car momentarily from rolling back when you left off the break. I think that just about everyone who is learning how to drive a manual has the same fear of rolling back on a hill. Before you tackle hills what I recommend you doing is getting a good feel for your clutch and at what points you will start to stall. Also, if you feel like you are going to stall, what to do. While I beleive it is bad for you to hold yourself on a hill with the clutch (basically, giving it just the right amount of gas and clutch preasure so you dont move), it is vital that you know when this point is because that you need to be able to quickly get to this point in order to go forward without rolling back. Practice finding that point on flat ground in a parking lot or something and you should be good to go.
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      02-07-2008, 04:00 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magillagorilla View Post
Great thread.

I'm in the process of learning to drive a manual trying to make my mind up between step and stick on my 335i order. Unfortunately, Seattle's hills make a stick more of an issue that it otherwise would be. Had a series of stalls on a hill yesterday afternoon that was brutally embarrassing and seemed to last forever. I can still remember the look on the woman's face who was sitting in a different car waiting for me to get up the hill. UGH!

While hill starts and regular driving are getting manageable at this point, I seriously have not been able to get the car in reverse without stalling it. Fear I guess is that I'm going to go flying backwards if I give the car too much gas. I can't modulate the speed properly so I react by not giving the car enough gas, resulting in a stall.

I take it that what I should be doing is only partially letting go of the clutch?
Yes but, ONLY in reverse and for a very short distance/period of time! At least that's my .02- maybe someone else will say otherwise...
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      02-07-2008, 04:01 PM   #73
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Ok so I guess I don't "ride" the clutch while reversing out of my driveway but, I "feather" it instead..
gotcha, now too lazy to go back to my previous posts and change ride to feather Althought I will continue to use ride as it is faster to type ride vs feather
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      02-07-2008, 04:06 PM   #74
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Option a is faster, but is there any benefit do doing option b? (i guess option c would be to do the double clutch, but that seems unnecessary per previous posts)

Another observation is when I come to a stop. Typically i find myself shifting into neutral, holding in the cluch all the way and breaking. I find it to be the smoothest way to come to a stop. Downshifting at low speeds with rev matching while coming to a stop seems counter productive (since you arn't trying to speed up). Also, if suddenly the light turns green before i come to a complete stop, or have just stopped, I shift from neutral into second to start.

Does anyone have a good technique for driving at low speeds? I realized last night when I let my friend drive my car (he drives a m3 so i trusted him) that sitting in the passanger seat is scary as heck, and i can't even imagine what it is like if a) you havent driven with someone before and b) don't trust a cars handling...esp in rainy washington I guess feathering is a must, but whats a good way to avoid jerky movements in downshifting without rev matching?
1. I see no need for option b. Option a is fine.

2. You shouldn't use the engine to brake the car. You are given brakes for that purpose - use them.

3. The purpose of downshifting is to select the right gear for the conditions. I agree, if you can see that you will be coming to a halt, you will take your foot off the accelerator while remaining in gear, depressing the clutch at the last moment before clutch judder sets in, and braking smoothly to a halt.

4. You should be able to drive smoothly at a low speed in 2nd gear. if you're going uphill you may need 1st gear but you shouldn't need to feather the clutch except at walking speeds in slow stop start traffic.
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      02-07-2008, 04:08 PM   #75
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1. I see no need for option b. Option a is fine.

2. You shouldn't use the engine to brake the car. You are given brakes for that purpose - use them.

3. The purpose of downshifting is to select the right gear for the conditions. I agree, if you can see that you will be coming to a halt, you will take your foot off the accelerator while remaining in gear, depressing the clutch at the last moment before clutch judder sets in, and braking smoothly to a halt.

4. You should be able to drive smoothly at a low speed in 2nd gear. if you're going uphill you may need 1st gear but you shouldn't need to feather the clutch except at walking speeds in slow stop start traffic.
Referring to point #2- what about when going downhill and trying to maintain a moderated speed- I would think braking too much going downhill MAY cause the brakes to fade excessively so downshifting becomes essential (like when I'm coming back from skiing in VT/Maine etc). Anyone care to elaborate on their shifting technique while going downhill and trying to moderate a stable speed? I've always wondered about the best way to do this...maybe I should just stick to using the brakes?
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      02-07-2008, 04:12 PM   #76
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It may be the Clutch Delav Valve (CDV) that is giving you the hesitation.

Also, I was concerned that the "hicups" I was feeling sometimes when i shifted from 1-2 or 2-3 were from either the CDV or just my bad manual driving abilities but my friend was saying when he drove my car that it may be the turbos kicking in. I know this isn't a "Turbo" thread, but it may be beneficial if someone could explain this so people would know what aspects of their driving (smoothness of shifts) is due to their manual driving abilities, and what can be attributed to other factors.
Do they fit a CDV on the 335i? I ask because I also drove a Z4M Coupe and starting off in that was ghastly - very difficult to pull away smoothly. Later someone told me that it was the CDV and there was a fix for it. I drove a 1 series Coupe as well which I thought shared the same gearbox as the 335, and that gearbox and clutch was a pleasure to use.
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      02-07-2008, 04:14 PM   #77
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Do they fit a CDV on the 335i? I ask because I also drove a Z4M Coupe and starting off in that was ghastly - very difficult to pull away smoothly. Later someone told me that it was the CDV and there was a fix for it. I drove a 1 series Coupe as well which I thought shared the same gearbox as the 335, and that gearbox and clutch was a pleasure to use.
Yes a CDV (Clutch Delay Valve) is on the 335. Planning on having it replaced with a modded CDV next week (Which for people who dont know is the same as taking it out, just visually it looks like it is still there for warranty purposes, although if something really bad happened they would probably find out anways...) Hopefully that will help.
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      02-07-2008, 04:16 PM   #78
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Referring to point #2- what about when going downhill and trying to maintain a moderated speed- I would think braking too much going downhill MAY cause the brakes to fade excessively so downshifting becomes essential (like when I'm coming back from skiing in VT/Maine etc). Anyone care to elaborate on their shifting technique while going downhill and trying to moderate a stable speed? I've always wondered about the best way to do this...maybe I should just stick to using the brakes?
It would have to be a very long steep hill for your brakes to fade on a new Beemer or any other car for that matter. However I would agree with you that if not changing down would cause you to go too fast for the conditions then downshifting might be appropriate i.e. if you would have to brake for a long period to keep your speed under control, then I think you would be in too high a gear and should shift down. For example if I was following a lorry doing 40 mph down a long hill, I wouldn't be in 6th but most probably either 4th or even 3rd.
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      02-07-2008, 04:17 PM   #79
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Yes a CDV (Clutch Delay Valve) is on the 335. Planning on having it replaced with a modded CDV next week (Which for people who dont know is the same as taking it out, just visually it looks like it is still there for warranty purposes, although if something really bad happened they would probably find out anways...) Hopefully that will help.
Thanks. The Z4M really was dreadful in 1st and 2nd and I don't want a similar experience in the 335 which is scheduled to arrive in about 5 weeks.
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      02-07-2008, 04:19 PM   #80
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just drive it, the 335 drives like a honda.
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      02-07-2008, 04:23 PM   #81
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just drive it, the 335 drives like a honda.
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      02-07-2008, 04:36 PM   #82
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It would have to be a very long steep hill for your brakes to fade on a new Beemer or any other car for that matter. However I would agree with you that if not changing down would cause you to go too fast for the conditions then downshifting might be appropriate i.e. if you would have to brake for a long period to keep your speed under control, then I think you would be in too high a gear and should shift down. For example if I was following a lorry doing 40 mph down a long hill, I wouldn't be in 6th but most probably either 4th or even 3rd.
Yea I'm referring to only when it's a really long steep hill- more like a mountain during snow/ice conditions- ie when I'm coming back from a ski trip. Thanks for the input.
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      02-07-2008, 04:36 PM   #83
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This thread is so addictive...now has any of you ride your clutch while reversing out of your driveway?
EVERYONE. Those who say they fully release their clutch when backing out of a parking space are either lying or have 400 foot driveways.

Interesting thread. I rev match on downshifts, but don't double-clutch. I'm not convinced there is any benefit to it.

What I want to improve is my heel-toe shifting. I've been driving MT for a long time but still have lots of room for improvement. The best thing about MT is that it feels like an art sometimes, in the sense that you always feel like you can improve. It's part of the fun of driving a MT, and is the primary reason I don't like driving AT cars even though I can drive AT faster in a straight line (just press down hard with the right foot).
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      02-07-2008, 04:39 PM   #84
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EVERYONE. Those who say they fully release their clutch when backing out of a parking space are either lying or have 400 foot driveways.

Interesting thread. I rev match on downshifts, but don't double-clutch. I'm not convinced there is any benefit to it.

What I want to improve is my heel-toe shifting. I've been driving MT for a long time but still have lots of room for improvement. The best thing about MT is that it feels like an art sometimes, in the sense that you always feel like you can improve. It's part of the fun of driving a MT, and is the primary reason I don't like driving AT cars even though I can drive AT faster in a straight line (just press down hard with the right foot).
Agree w/you 100% Driving MT is like an art and you can always get better at it. That's why this is a great post!
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      02-07-2008, 04:40 PM   #85
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EVERYONE. Those who say they fully release their clutch when backing out of a parking space are either lying or have 400 foot driveways.

Interesting thread. I rev match on downshifts, but don't double-clutch. I'm not convinced there is any benefit to it.

What I want to improve is my heel-toe shifting. I've been driving MT for a long time but still have lots of room for improvement. The best thing about MT is that it feels like an art sometimes, in the sense that you always feel like you can improve. It's part of the fun of driving a MT, and is the primary reason I don't like driving AT cars even though I can drive AT faster in a straight line (just press down hard with the right foot).
+1

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      02-07-2008, 04:40 PM   #86
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There is nothing wrong with engine braking when you use it in the right scenario, but if you're about to come to a complete stop there is really no point.

When your driving down a steep grade it is a good idea to downshift and use engine braking to control your speed and only use the brakes to augment your braking, tapping them once in a while to keep your speed in check. RIDING the brakes for a long time downhill is never a good idea, and WILL cause brake fade.

Even on our cars with anti-brake fade technology, we can still experience brake fade. Our cars only increase brake pressure to compensate for brake fade. What do you think happens when your car reaches the maximum achievable brake pressure and the brakes just keep on getting hotter? Just because your car has technology to help prevent brake fade doesn't mean you can't get brake fade, it just takes longer, you should never rely on it.
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      02-07-2008, 04:42 PM   #87
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There is nothing wrong with engine braking when you use it in the right scenario, but if you're about to come to a complete stop there is really no point.

When your driving down a steep grade it is a good idea to downshift and use engine braking to control your speed and only use the brakes to augment your braking, tapping them once in a while to keep your speed in check. RIDING the brakes for a long time downhill is never a good idea, and WILL cause brake fade.

Even on our cars with anti-brake fade technology, we can still experience brake fade. Our cars only increase brake pressure to compensate for brake fade. What do you think happens when your car reaches the maximum achievable brake pressure and the brakes just keep on getting hotter? Just because your car has technology to help prevent brake fade doesn't mean you can't get brake fade, it just takes longer, you should never rely on it.
That's exactly what I was thinking- I use the technique that you mentioned above- good to know that I was doing it right all along haha...or at least "right" according to you and I.
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      02-07-2008, 05:01 PM   #88
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About the engine braking issue, I remember listening to an episode of CarTalk a few years back, where they compared relying on engine braking versus relying on just the brakes. They basically concluded that both were equally good/bad for the car as a whole. So a mix seems the best bet.

I assume when people say "don't rely on engine braking, use your brakes" that you don't suggest pressing the clutch the entire time you brake... right?
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