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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > Official Learn To Drive Manual Cars Thread



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      02-08-2008, 03:55 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
i think ur fuel injectors shut off or something. someone was talking about it a couple pages back. search for injectors
I must be blind. I can't find nada...
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      02-08-2008, 03:59 PM   #156
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You can absolutely heel-toe on this car - the pedals are set up just fine. How comfortable it is depends on the size of your foot. In general, heel-toe is a bit of a misnomer. Most people use the ball of the foot to press the brakes and blip the throttle with the right edge of the foot.
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      02-08-2008, 07:04 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K335i View Post
You can absolutely heel-toe on this car - the pedals are set up just fine. How comfortable it is depends on the size of your foot. In general, heel-toe is a bit of a misnomer. Most people use the ball of the foot to press the brakes and blip the throttle with the right edge of the foot.
+1

"Heel and Toe" is a misnomer that goes back to when the pedals were very far apart.

The real espression should be "left side of right foot, right side of right foot"

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      02-09-2008, 08:55 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txusa03 View Post
Ok, I will play along. Someone tell me what is so bad about this technique. Here is my version of rev matching going from 5th to 4th:

1) depress clutch
2) shift from 5th to 4th
3) blib gas and let gas off very slowly
4) let go of clutch

I skip the neutral part...
What you are doing is simply called single clutching, which is exactly what i do when i downshift. As for what mantis went over is called double clutching. They both do the same thing except according to a friend of mine, double clutching is no longer necessary on newer cars. But i might be wrong.

I learned driving stick on my new 08' e92 and with the help of mantis. It was hard at first, but with couple times of practice, which involves constant stalling. You will get it. I never knew it would be possible to learn stick through someone online. In my case, it would be mantis and i am really grateful for his effort.

Thanks Mantis you are the best man!
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      02-10-2008, 01:14 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxx_big View Post
What you are doing is simply called single clutching, which is exactly what i do when i downshift. As for what mantis went over is called double clutching. They both do the same thing except according to a friend of mine, double clutching is no longer necessary on newer cars. But i might be wrong.

I learned driving stick on my new 08' e92 and with the help of mantis. It was hard at first, but with couple times of practice, which involves constant stalling. You will get it. I never knew it would be possible to learn stick through someone online. In my case, it would be mantis and i am really grateful for his effort.

Thanks Mantis you are the best man!
awww thanks for the kind words man. im glad you are enjoying your car, that's what i was hoping for

Double-clutching and bliping while single clutching are essentially the same. Bliping with single clutch will make the synchro's work. Unfortunately wear out fast coz of the material they are made out of. They are difficult to replace. if you wish to keep the car long double-clutch. if you dont care, then just do it the fast way

i tried bliping while single clutching today, i couldnt do it!!! my foot automatically double clutches on its own now
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      02-10-2008, 06:23 AM   #160
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Hey guys, i just learned how to drive a stick too. I learned it on a A4 and i was wondering itès easier to drive or the 335i...?
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      02-10-2008, 12:39 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmac911 View Post
Hey guys, i just learned how to drive a stick too. I learned it on a A4 and i was wondering itès easier to drive or the 335i...?
i've driven different audis and a couple of 6MT BMW's, not too much, but around the block kinda thing... I think they're both pretty easy, very nice clutches. Maybe BMW needs a shorter shifter, or at least a shifter knob
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      02-11-2008, 08:27 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmac911 View Post
Hey guys, i just learned how to drive a stick too. I learned it on a A4 and i was wondering itès easier to drive or the 335i...?
Had the joy of driving an S5 over the weekend and I was actually surprised at how different the transmission was from the 335i. S5 tranny felt smoother but somehow more robust. No jerking with my noob gear changes and I felt as though I couldn't stall it if I tried. Could be the longer throws of the 335i, but the transmission felt more delicate somehow. Now if I could just get over the looks/$$ of the S5.
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      02-11-2008, 08:35 PM   #163
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dude, S5's pulls you hard backwards when you depress the clutch, it is nowhere near smooth IMO
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      02-12-2008, 12:03 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
dude, S5's pulls you hard backwards when you depress the clutch, it is nowhere near smooth IMO
The S5 clutch certainly takes more effort, but the feel of the shifter is butter. S5 is also has a nice interior.

That said, while I seem to be the only one, not a fan of the S5's exterior and about to order my 335i as a manual. Fun times ahead.
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      02-12-2008, 12:06 PM   #165
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congrats in advance man! yah i loved the interior, very rich and nice looking.
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      02-12-2008, 12:20 PM   #166
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Tried something new this morning on the way to work, was wondering if anyone else does this?

When I am driving normally (like 95% of everyone else on the road) it always sucks shifting into second as my car gets the hicups. The only way ive been countering this is my "feathering" a butt load as i slowly give it gas. When i do this i feel like i am riding my clutch to much...

So this morning I sad f--- 2nd gear and just shifted from 1st to third and it was a much more smooth transition.

I don't really have problems when i accelerate fast (as i'm probably shifting faster) from first to second and at higher rpms, but when i'm just getting around (especially with speed sensitive people in the car!) it is nice to be able to drive w/out scaring the $hit out of them, or making them into bobble head dolls.

I'm thinking of delaying my modded CDV until i try out my short shift lever/knob for a while, as id like to keep my clutch under warranty Hopefully going from 1st to third will help make this bearable!
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      02-12-2008, 12:22 PM   #167
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no one will know about ur CDV. i'm told (thanks Spool) that you can take it out, remove the valve inside of it with a tip of a pen, then put the same CDV back in
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      02-12-2008, 12:44 PM   #168
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So if $hit hit the fan and i had to take the car in i could put the real cdv back in easily?
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      02-12-2008, 12:46 PM   #169
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no no no.. ur using the real same stock CDV, just emptying out what's inside of it. they wont look and see, and if they do, they wont know
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      02-12-2008, 02:35 PM   #170
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great thread
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      02-12-2008, 02:36 PM   #171
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lol Johnson! thanks. yo, u really buying CEA 3's car? i can teach you how to drive in no time
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      02-13-2008, 05:07 PM   #172
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[quote=jdink;2132596}

When I am driving normally (like 95% of everyone else on the road) it always sucks shifting into second as my car gets the hicups. The only way ive been countering this is my "feathering" a butt load as i slowly give it gas. When i do this i feel like i am riding my clutch to much...

[/QUOTE]

Funny you mention the 1-2 shift. My wife actually laughed at me the first couple of times I did this shift during our demo ride (**lurch**). I actually found that they key to a smooth 1-2 shift is this car is a very slow, LIGHT movement with the stick. Trying to force the shift through the little bit of notchiness in between 1 and 2 only seemed to make it worse. Go light and slow (picture only using your finger tips) and see if that helps.
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      02-18-2008, 05:43 PM   #173
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Seems strange listening to people who can already drive learning to drive again, over here everyone learns in a manual (stick) and continues with one - if you take your driving test in an automatic you are not allowed to drive anything other than an automatic without taking another test. In 25 years of driving I think I've only met one person who learnt in an automatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
Double-clutching and bliping while single clutching are essentially the same. Bliping with single clutch will make the synchro's work. Unfortunately wear out fast coz of the material they are made out of. They are difficult to replace. if you wish to keep the car long double-clutch.
There seems to be some concern over the synchro's in this thread - unless you are a lunatic dont worry about the damn things, they'll still be doing their job in 200,000 miles. Double declutching is a pointless complexity - synchromesh gears were invented to avoid the need to double declutch just like brakes were invented to avoid having holes in the footwell for you to stick your feet through to rub on the tarmac - use them dont 'save' them.

EDIT: Forgot to add - no, they arent the same thing, if you blip during a normal (single press of the clutch) gearchange you are altering the engine speed only - its a good thing to do to smooth out changes but it has no affect on the internals of the gearbox - its disconnected by the clutch. When you blip during a double declutch you are actually spinning up the engine side of the gearbox internals to to try to get the correct rotational speed so that it will be turning at the right speed to engage with the road side of the new gear pairing. Completely different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdink View Post
When I am driving normally (like 95% of everyone else on the road) it always sucks shifting into second as my car gets the hicups. The only way ive been countering this is my "feathering" a butt load as i slowly give it gas. When i do this i feel like i am riding my clutch to much...
1st to 2nd changes are, by nature of the gearing involved, the most difficult while driving gently. One thing to remember is that its way easier to change up from 1st to 2nd early i.e. if you accelerate gently in first to 3500rpm then try to gently engage second its hard - much harder than if you attempted the same shift at 2000rpm. So unless you need the acceleration keep the revs down in low gears - you'll be much smoother.

Here is what you are trying to achieve:
1. As you approach the point you want to change up then gently ease off the throttle a bit.
2. As you are backing off gently (dont stamp on it) depress the clutch.
3. Properly back of the throttle.
4. Wait for it....
5. Grab second gently not slamming the lever about is a great way to be kind to those beloved synchros.
5. Wait a bit longer...
6 Bring the clutch up and start to reapply power just as the engine revs match the revs you need to be doing your current speed in second.

Sounds simple but the reason you are getting a jerk is that when you bring the clutch back up the engine speed is different to the road speed for the gear you've selected. Try a little test - drive along at 30mph in first and note the rpm, pop it into second and keeping it at 30 note the new rpm - theres quite a difference. Now find a quiet bit of road, drive up to 30 in first, depress the clutch and freewheel a bit while watching the tacho - takes a while to get back down to the rpm you need for second doesn't it? its all timing. If you bring the clutch back up and start to reapply power just at the time when the engine is spinning at the rpm you need for the next gear you'll have no jerk at all.

That jerk works both ways, bring the clutch up too soon and the engine will be spinning too fast and the car will give a little lurch of acceleration as the inertia of the fast spinning engine accelerates the car. Bring the clutch up too late and you've now got an engine which is spinning too slowly - again you get a jerk but its a jerk of deceleration as the engine slows the car down. Time it just right and you'll not get a jerk and you wont need to feather the clutch at all - in fact if you match road speed and engine speed perfectly you can just dump the clutch instantly and noone would feel a thing - trouble is thats pretty impossible to do.

Unfortunately nobody can teach you to be smooth, everyone who ever learns to drive a manual (stick) drives like a complete jerky idiot at first until their body learns to time the changes without thinking about it. Some people learn to do it 'OK' but never, ever get smooth but if you care about it you'll probably get it nailed - don't expect it to come that quickly, its not a brain thing its teaching your body to do something like learning to walk or ride a bike - you'll still be improving years from now.

Oh and expect to look a fool going from one manual to another! just when you think you've got it sorted you drive a different car and its all different and all your changes are rough again - fortunately it seems the more different cars you drive the less you notice the differences.

Last edited by DaveC; 02-18-2008 at 06:00 PM.
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      02-18-2008, 05:49 PM   #174
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^^ thanks!

on a side note: it's always healthy to listen for what people have to say and learn from them. that's why i dont think it's strange that we're trying to learn tho we been driving MT for years
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      02-19-2008, 09:54 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
Seems strange listening to people who can already drive learning to drive again, over here everyone learns in a manual (stick) and continues with one - if you take your driving test in an automatic you are not allowed to drive anything other than an automatic without taking another test. In 25 years of driving I think I've only met one person who learnt in an automatic.



There seems to be some concern over the synchro's in this thread - unless you are a lunatic dont worry about the damn things, they'll still be doing their job in 200,000 miles. Double declutching is a pointless complexity - synchromesh gears were invented to avoid the need to double declutch just like brakes were invented to avoid having holes in the footwell for you to stick your feet through to rub on the tarmac - use them dont 'save' them.

EDIT: Forgot to add - no, they arent the same thing, if you blip during a normal (single press of the clutch) gearchange you are altering the engine speed only - its a good thing to do to smooth out changes but it has no affect on the internals of the gearbox - its disconnected by the clutch. When you blip during a double declutch you are actually spinning up the engine side of the gearbox internals to to try to get the correct rotational speed so that it will be turning at the right speed to engage with the road side of the new gear pairing. Completely different things.



1st to 2nd changes are, by nature of the gearing involved, the most difficult while driving gently. One thing to remember is that its way easier to change up from 1st to 2nd early i.e. if you accelerate gently in first to 3500rpm then try to gently engage second its hard - much harder than if you attempted the same shift at 2000rpm. So unless you need the acceleration keep the revs down in low gears - you'll be much smoother.

Here is what you are trying to achieve:
1. As you approach the point you want to change up then gently ease off the throttle a bit.
2. As you are backing off gently (dont stamp on it) depress the clutch.
3. Properly back of the throttle.
4. Wait for it....
5. Grab second gently not slamming the lever about is a great way to be kind to those beloved synchros.
5. Wait a bit longer...
6 Bring the clutch up and start to reapply power just as the engine revs match the revs you need to be doing your current speed in second.

Sounds simple but the reason you are getting a jerk is that when you bring the clutch back up the engine speed is different to the road speed for the gear you've selected. Try a little test - drive along at 30mph in first and note the rpm, pop it into second and keeping it at 30 note the new rpm - theres quite a difference. Now find a quiet bit of road, drive up to 30 in first, depress the clutch and freewheel a bit while watching the tacho - takes a while to get back down to the rpm you need for second doesn't it? its all timing. If you bring the clutch back up and start to reapply power just at the time when the engine is spinning at the rpm you need for the next gear you'll have no jerk at all.

That jerk works both ways, bring the clutch up too soon and the engine will be spinning too fast and the car will give a little lurch of acceleration as the inertia of the fast spinning engine accelerates the car. Bring the clutch up too late and you've now got an engine which is spinning too slowly - again you get a jerk but its a jerk of deceleration as the engine slows the car down. Time it just right and you'll not get a jerk and you wont need to feather the clutch at all - in fact if you match road speed and engine speed perfectly you can just dump the clutch instantly and noone would feel a thing - trouble is thats pretty impossible to do.

Unfortunately nobody can teach you to be smooth, everyone who ever learns to drive a manual (stick) drives like a complete jerky idiot at first until their body learns to time the changes without thinking about it. Some people learn to do it 'OK' but never, ever get smooth but if you care about it you'll probably get it nailed - don't expect it to come that quickly, its not a brain thing its teaching your body to do something like learning to walk or ride a bike - you'll still be improving years from now.

Oh and expect to look a fool going from one manual to another! just when you think you've got it sorted you drive a different car and its all different and all your changes are rough again - fortunately it seems the more different cars you drive the less you notice the differences.

nice reading. I am sitting here picturing myself as I read your post. I do agreed with alot of things you are saying and have done alot of them to learn about my MT and to improve my shifting.
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      02-25-2008, 04:08 PM   #176
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Regarding stopping (seeing a red light ahead), I think it's best just to press on the brake (and alarm the people behind you), and when the engine rpm goes to near 1k, shift to neutral, and come to a stop; if the light changes to green when you are in neutral, you can shift into the proper gear, depends on your speed.

Making a fast turn using the heel toe technique is not easy. I haven't been able to do it well.

here's a write up from a Miata driver:

Beginning Heel-toe downshifting

By Kevin Morrison

I'm not really a Qualified Expert, but I can give you a summary of how I learned the whole heel-toe thing. For those who aren't familiar with the technique, it is a technique used in manual-transmission cars when braking and downshifting to match the speed of the engine to the speed of the transmission. For example, if you are downshifting from 3rd to 2nd when taking a corner, the engine will start at say, 3500 rpm and after the downshift, will end up at say, 4300. If you don't use your right foot to blip the throttle up to 4300 before you let off the clutch, the revs will have dropped to say, 2500 rpm and the clutch/transmission will have to "drag" the engine up to the required 4300 rpm. This is usually a somewhat violent occurrence which is hard on the clutch and more importantly from the performance driving standpoint, upsets the attitude of the car, frequently breaking the rear tires loose. The heel-toe part comes in when you have to be on the brakes at the same time you want to be blipping the throttle and this is where most people get lost.

To start learning to do this, I had to realize that the transmission doesn't care what the brakes are doing. Quite by accident, I learned that I could shift the tranny while also braking for a turn. I used to have to brake until I was slow enough for the turn, get off the brakes, and then do the shift before turning in for the apex. This takes way too long and I would often end up free-wheeling through the turn with my foot on the clutch, having to wait until I could straighten out the wheels before I let off the clutch (or the car would likely spin). This made me exit the turn way too slow and way out of the power-band of the engine. Once I realized the tranny and brakes don't care about each other, I started downshifting and braking for the turn at the same time. Once that was down, all I had to do was add the throttle blip to get the revs up before completing the downshift. The trick to the heel-toe throttle blip is in learning to manipulate the gas pedal while also braking, and maintaining a constant pressure on the brake pedal to avoid upsetting the balance of the car. This part took me a good solid year to perfect.

The term 'heel-toe' is misleading because most drivers don't really use their heel, but rather use the inside and outside part of the foot. To start, sitting still, put your foot on the brake (really just the inside edge of your foot) and then try to hit the gas with the outside edge of your foot. If you can't reach it, you'll need to either move the pedals closer together, get some "racing" pedals, or wear big clown shoes. Once you're able to hit both pedals with one foot, you blip the throttle by sort of rolling your foot over onto the gas while keeping constant pressure on the brake. Once you're confident about the motion required, start practicing while slowing down in a straight line (not in traffic, though!) with your foot on the clutch. Concentrate on blipping the throttle without making the car lurch around due to uneven pressure on the brakes. Once you can do that, start doing the throttle blip on downshifts. The sequence would be like this: brakes, clutch, shift, blip, release clutch, release brakes (when appropriate). When you get good at it, the whole operation becomes like one quick motion and you'll find that you can downshift in a fraction of the time it used to take...
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