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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > ****New M3 annual income poll****



View Poll Results: As a new M3 buyer, my annual income is...
sub $50,000 31 9.23%
$50-65k 24 7.14%
$65-80k 35 10.42%
$80-90k 16 4.76%
$90-110k 29 8.63%
$110-150k 47 13.99%
more than $150k 154 45.83%
Voters: 336. You may not vote on this poll

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      02-09-2008, 12:57 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix 21st View Post
with global markets the way they are at the minute i would not bank on stocks. Definately not in the US.
The more people think this, the better the opportunity. I'm not having a 'go' at you, just that the best markets come when the last easy holder sells.
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      02-09-2008, 01:02 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
I wasn't. Glad you timed well. Most market-timers are shitty at it, especially after tax.
+1 I do it more in % terms - rarely in 100% terms, ie (100 cash, 100 bonds etc).

I have yet to see a very accurate timing model - some good ones, sure, so one can use those to tilt.

I suspect there's a few here earning north of $500k. Yeah, and not worth as much as it used to, the USD will come back vs the EUR ...
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      02-09-2008, 01:04 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur;2118766I
suspect there's a few here north of $500k. Yeah, and not worth as much as it used to - USD will come back vs the EUR ...
Not an expert in this area, but got to think the HUGE national debt is devalueing the dollar. The US government is not a good model on how we should live our financial lives.
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      02-09-2008, 01:12 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajminn View Post
oneginee, there are plenty of professions that pay 150k out of school. look at anyone coming out of school with a md, mba, or a jd.
Apologies, I don't think this is an accurate statement.

(1) WHERE did the person get the MBA? is critical
(2) WHAT will the MBA be doing (private eq or local biz intern?)

JD
The firm or other avenue is key.
(3) I know a few JDs who don't make $150k after 5+ years post-degree

MD?
(4) again, from where (uni) and where are they headed & to what specialization?

The data on income show that professional grads above $150k are a minority unless they can fall into some special categories (e.g. top law firm, IB, medical specialization etc) + excellent ed quals - on average. There are always outliers, and geography plays a part in the equation.
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      02-09-2008, 01:27 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
Not an expert in this area, but got to think the HUGE national debt is devalueing the dollar. The US government is not a good model on how we should live our financial lives.
BIG topic. Our debt / GDP isn't so bad. It really wouldn't matter if the economy were growing faster / real interest rates higher.

You're not incorrect in assessing that a large national debt, ceteris paribus, is ONE factor affecting the dollar [USD] - but that's a more long-run effect.

Over the short-run it's more about relative interest rate spreads + speculative demand (e.g. going long the 'loonie' [Canadian $, CAD] because the trader likes the 'spread, the commodities' markets and trade balance.)

There's some good reasons why the USD could rally. One of which is that while the USD is cheap, our assets look cheap, and attract significant capital inflows that actually support the USD (sovereign wealth funds for e.g.)

Versus Asia? No, we will see a weaker USD.

I think I got waaayyyy OT!
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      02-09-2008, 01:50 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Ivy league (or Ivy league equivalent like Stanford) MBA's with experience.
Specialty MD's
Some Ivy league JD's
People who are already connected through their family or friends (i.e. Chelsea Clinton, and many of the Ivy league graduates)
Some top engineers in high demand areas

Any others?
Finance 'quants' , ie econometrics, physics, applied maths

And there's the area of software engineering, incl. the web (GOOG et al)
Currently Alternative Energy start-ups are hot, so grad sciences/engineering degrees geared to that space

Really, the list is massive ...
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      02-09-2008, 02:05 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
how is residency a different story? most resident physicians hover between $40-60k depending on location.
Point was:

Graduate from med school, not great money

Graduate from residency, you earn anywhere from OK to great money, but few doctors earn "fuck you" money in the truest meaning of the phrase.

Thus, graduating from residency is a different story. I should have given you a few more words to go by.

Free hospital food is overrated. Free time is underrated.
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      02-09-2008, 08:35 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
BIG topic. Our debt / GDP isn't so bad.
Hi Voltigeur. I am curious about how one makes this assessment. Comparing it to the debt/GDP ratios of other countries seems all relative and somewhat pointless. What objective measures are used to assess this? I guess projected growth and interest rates are important, but how exactly? Can you point me to a source that explains this in details? Thanks.
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      02-09-2008, 09:51 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
Point was:

Graduate from med school, not great money

Graduate from residency, you earn anywhere from OK to great money, but few doctors earn "fuck you" money in the truest meaning of the phrase.

Thus, graduating from residency is a different story. I should have given you a few more words to go by.

Free hospital food is overrated. Free time is underrated.

My buddy is in his second year of private practice. He is a cardio-thoracic surgeon and stint specialist. I assume he makes 'phuk you' money. His annual medical malpractice insurance is around 225k so the FU money is a relative concept.


Art, what is it about you being so concerned about correcting and/or inferring that those that claim 100k+/annual are full of it? Does everyone have to fit into your model? Statistically speaking, I would imagine that most M3 forum folks are in the upper brackets.

Sadly, our combined income in excess of 100k makes the bills only. House/mortgage in the right school district eats a vast portion of our take home. Welcome to being an adult.

I live vicariously through you all.

Best,Jon
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      02-09-2008, 10:23 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoo View Post
My buddy is in his second year of private practice. He is a cardio-thoracic surgeon and stint specialist. I assume he makes 'phuk you' money. His annual medical malpractice insurance is around 225k so the FU money is a relative concept.


Art, what is it about you being so concerned about correcting and/or inferring that those that claim 100k+/annual are full of it? Does everyone have to fit into your model? Statistically speaking, I would imagine that most M3 forum folks are in the upper brackets.

Sadly, our combined income in excess of 100k makes the bills only. House/mortgage in the right school district eats a vast portion of our take home. Welcome to being an adult.

I live vicariously through you all.

Best,Jon
never said anyone was 'full of it', you did, and I thank you...

>100k is <3% (?) of the population...
here it's ~70%
I find that 'odd', so what?
people always 'exagerate', for what reasons I can only surmise...
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      02-09-2008, 10:37 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
Finance 'quants' , ie econometrics, physics, applied maths

And there's the area of software engineering, incl. the web (GOOG et al)
Currently Alternative Energy start-ups are hot, so grad sciences/engineering degrees geared to that space

Really, the list is massive ...
No, the question was 1st year out of school, and I don't think it is massive at all. Software "engineers" right out of school are not making $150K+, exceptions aside. I own a business software consulting company that spans across almost all IT and IS disciplines, so I have a good pulse on that market. After a few years experience potentially yes, but not right out of school.
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      02-09-2008, 11:16 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
No, the question was 1st year out of school, and I don't think it is massive at all. Software "engineers" right out of school are not making $150K+, exceptions aside. I own a business software consulting company that spans across almost all IT and IS disciplines, so I have a good pulse on that market. After a few years experience potentially yes, but not right out of school.

I agree...polls like this give the young unrealistic expectations, and leave them disappointed...

I'm the sr partner in a 40 person consutling engineering firm...
I have guys with BS degrees and 5 yrs experience on the payroll for 50-55k
and there is NO shortage of people looking for those jobs...

granted, I live in a cola area of 93 on an avg index of 100, but still...
we hire guys right out of school ~40-45k...
our sr guys >20 yrs are making 70-80k or so...

and I'm talking major schools with quality programs, not second rate: PSU, WVU and Pitt...

as a partner/owner (3 of us), I do better...with 20+ years of experience and licensing in multiple states I earn ~160, give or take depending on profit margin...we could make more, but we choose to enjoy ourselves and share with the employees

my wife works part time (20 hrs/wk) due to a medical condition, a CPA, BS degree, 20 yrs experience...$24/hr...50k/yr if full time

Last edited by ArtPE; 02-09-2008 at 12:55 PM.
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      02-09-2008, 12:52 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
I agree...polls like this give the young unrealistic expectations, and leave them disappointed...

I'm the sr partner in a 40 person consutling engineering firm...
I have guys with BS degrees and 5 yrs experience on the payroll for 50-55k
and there is NO shortage of people looking for those jobs...

granted, I live in a cola area of 93 on an avg index of 100, but still...
we hire guys right out of school ~40-45k...
our sr guys >20 yrs are making 70-80k or so...

and I'm talking major schools with quality programs, not second rate: PSU, WVU and Pitt...

as a partner/owner (3 of us), I do better...with 20+ years of experience and licensing in multiple states I earn 150+ depending on profit margin...we could make more, but we choose to enjoy ourselves and share with the employees
Straight out of engineering school and 45k in 2008? I would be surfing web all day and looking for a job while being there.
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      02-09-2008, 12:55 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
No, the question was 1st year out of school, and I don't think it is massive at all. Software "engineers" right out of school are not making $150K+, exceptions aside.
Fair enough. Oh, I got the "1st year" bit; I am talking about 1st year out of top tier grad school.

So, I am really talking exceptions and not the rule. ie. on software side gifted engineers who got into GOOG for e.g.

Finance has a relatively large sub-set that do: if you come from a top grad program (Chicago, Wharton et al) and have quant and/or other specialized skills and get into the world of hedge funds, pvt equity, LBOs. This last point is important to the argument: this is a smaller grp of a relatively small grad cohort.

I was at a dinner recently in NY and the table was full of young hedge fund mgrs/traders/analysts from Stamford CT and they were making far more than 150k (2x+, yes, they are crass enough to talk annual bonuses as it's bonus time) and right out of the gate in 2 cases. One ~ 30 y.o. guy had an e60 M5 as daily driver and a 430 on order .. (bastard )

To take the other side: my wife has 2 Masters' and a PhD in History from a very good Canadian uni + 14 years' academic experience and she's only making in the 50s - who says life is just?
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      02-09-2008, 12:58 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
Straight out of engineering school and 45k in 2008? I would be surfing web all day and looking for a job while being there.
we only hire people we can trust...
and we monitor their usage, no internet...only on one centrally located machine...

http://www.collegejournal.com/salary...gineering.html
Engineers with bachelor's degrees and less than a year of experience earn a median annual income of $43,530, according to a 2005 survey by the National Society of Professional Engineers. Bachelor's degree graduates with one to two years of experience earn a median $46,000 a year.

we hire civils mostly... http://engr.oregonstate.edu/students/jobs.html 43k
we get the best, we pay more than most and have good benefits...
income has become stagnent, actually decreasing or flat since 2000...

a more recent one: http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html
civil avg 46k

around here it's good money, we have a stack of resumes...the cost of living is low...a nice house can be had for 100-150k, a great one for 250k
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      02-09-2008, 01:09 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
we only hire people we can trust...
and we monitor their usage, no internet...only on one centrally located machine...

http://www.collegejournal.com/salary...gineering.html
Engineers with bachelor's degrees and less than a year of experience earn a median annual income of $43,530, according to a 2005 survey by the National Society of Professional Engineers. Bachelor's degree graduates with one to two years of experience earn a median $46,000 a year.

we hire civils mostly... http://engr.oregonstate.edu/students/jobs.html 43k
we get the best, we pay more than most and have good benefits...
income has become stagnent, actually decreasing or flat since 2000...

a more recent one: http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html
civil avg 46k

around here it's good money, we have a stack of resumes...the cost of living is low...a nice house can be had for 100-150k, a great one for 250k
Well, I guess for civil is a bit less than for chemical and low cost of living is understandable.

Don't you think it is kind of contradicting to say you hire people in whom you trust, but you don't allow them to have internet in their cubes? I have never heard of this before. You are hiring professionals, so why not treat them like one? If the job gets done, there is no reason why people couldn't check their yahoo email or surf m3post for 20 min during their lunch.
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      02-09-2008, 01:12 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
Well, I guess for civil is a bit less than for chemical and low cost of living is understandable.

Don't you think it is kind of contradicting to say you hire people in whom you trust, but you don't allow them to have internet in their cubes? I have never heard of this before. You are hiring professionals, so why not treat them like one? If the job gets done, there is no reason why people couldn't check their yahoo email or surf e90post for 20 min during their lunch.

trust in family is implicit, although may not be warranted...

trust in employees is earned, respect is implicit...this is a business contract, not a relationship
after a while we turn access on...
it's my dime, my rules...
they are on probation for 3 months...
and we don't consider them professionals until they are licensed, which takes 4 to 10 years usually...
until then, they are 'in training', after they graduate and pass the first test...

we all know how much time can be wasted on the internet during the work day, myself included, that's why I did it...

no one seemed to complain when we handed out bonues avg 5k for those guys...
we have very low turnover...
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      02-09-2008, 01:15 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
we only hire people we can trust...
and we monitor their usage, no internet...only on one centrally located machine...

http://www.collegejournal.com/salary...gineering.html
Engineers with bachelor's degrees and less than a year of experience earn a median annual income of $43,530, according to a 2005 survey by the National Society of Professional Engineers. Bachelor's degree graduates with one to two years of experience earn a median $46,000 a year.

we hire civils mostly... http://engr.oregonstate.edu/students/jobs.html 43k
we get the best, we pay more than most and have good benefits...
income has become stagnent, actually decreasing or flat since 2000...

a more recent one: http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html
civil avg 46k

around here it's good money, we have a stack of resumes...the cost of living is low...a nice house can be had for 100-150k, a great one for 250k
Location is everything.

I'm a Sr. Software Systems Engineer in California and make double of what that civil avg was that you listed. But being in California doesn't make it easy for house pricing. I WISH a great house out here would cost 250k. but realistically its a decent 1bed condo for that price. A great house 1 mil+.
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      02-09-2008, 01:18 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Jinxter View Post
Location is everything.

I'm a Sr. Software Systems Engineer in California and make double of what that civil avg was that you listed. But being in California doesn't make it easy for house pricing. I WISH a great house out here would cost 250k. but realistically its a decent 1bed condo for that price. A great house 1 mil+.

yes it is...

it's not how much you make, it's what you do with it...

it's a lifestyle choice and all about priorities
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      02-09-2008, 01:24 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Hi Voltigeur. I am curious about how one makes this assessment. Comparing it to the debt/GDP ratios of other countries seems all relative and somewhat pointless. What objective measures are used to assess this? I guess projected growth and interest rates are important, but how exactly? Can you point me to a source that explains this in details? Thanks.
You can read Shaviro "Do Deficits Matter". There's also a number of papers (econometrical) that have mixed results at finding any causality b/w 'rates and deficits. The Economist had a good summary on the debate several years ago but I can't find it readily (did a site search, "deficit" brings up 000's of entries).

Here's the federal deficit as % / GDP [myriad ways to define a deficit!] - but one can see we had a lot less debt around the time of the severe inflationary and recessionary period in the early 1980s. Bottom line: low federal debt / GDP does not equate to good or bad economic periods. It's more complex than that... but then we'd be delving into deeper economic philosophy and debate than I want to conduct in my spare time



Source: NDR, CBO
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Last edited by Voltigeur; 02-09-2008 at 04:44 PM. Reason: added chart
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      02-09-2008, 01:38 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
You can read Shaviro "Do Deficits Matter". There's also a number of papers (econometrical) that have mixed results at finding any causality b/w 'rates and deficits. The Economist had a good summary on the debate several years ago but I can't find it readily (did a site search, "deficit" brings up 000's of entries).
for every person who says the debt is bad, you'll find on who says it doesn't matter...

depends on what is was used for:
needless war, bad
overblown defense budget (>1/2 of the discretionary spending), bad
tax cuts for the wealthiest, bad

healthcare, good
edecation,good
infrastructure, good

and even these are open to debate...they are all opinions, not facts, and can never be proven/validated

one thing for sure, the bill will become due some day
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      02-09-2008, 03:02 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
for every person who says the debt is bad, you'll find on who says it doesn't matter...

depends on what is was used for:
needless war, bad
overblown defense budget (>1/2 of the discretionary spending), bad
tax cuts for the wealthiest, bad

healthcare, good
edecation,good
infrastructure, good

and even these are open to debate...they are all opinions, not facts, and can never be proven/validated

one thing for sure, the bill will become due some day
I didn't know that this was a political forum... In any event, I think I know what political party you are affiliated with.
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