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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Has anyone contacted BMW regarding 29.2 and lag?



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      07-15-2008, 08:45 AM   #309
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I wonder why none of the 135 guys are noticing any lag or sluggishness

If they are, I haven't noticed anything on 1addicts.
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      07-15-2008, 09:16 AM   #310
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To those seeking to modify the flap in the exhaust - a warning. I had unplugged the wire harness behind the tail light panel to keep the flap open at all times. I performed this mod nearly a year ago. I had recently noticed a pulsing of the throttle at constant speed. The pulsing was getting progressively worse, to the point that I thought I was going to stall at some points. I took the car in, they ran all computer tests, couldn't find any faults, except for my disconnected harness mod. They didn't think that was a problem. They were stumped and began working with BMW engineers to find out what was causing the pulsing throttle. The cause- the disconnected harness was causing the computer to constantly calculate the correct parameters to compensate for the minor back pressure drops caused by the flap not closing (the flap should be closed at constant speed).

After all that, they loaded the new 30.0 software and cleared all adaptations.

As to the lag people are experiencing, it is my opinion that the drive-by-wire throttle adapts to peoples' driving habits and initially the throttle is not sure if you want full on gas, so it hesitates and then gives you the gas. Drive your car hard for a while and I think people will notice the responsiveness comes back - it has for me.

To all those who think the new software causes turbo lag, it would be nice if an engineer would chime in with their opinion. It would seem to me that turbo lag would be entirely mechanical and could not be effected by a software mod.
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      07-15-2008, 12:29 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerpath View Post
To all those who think the new software causes turbo lag, it would be nice if an engineer would chime in with their opinion. It would seem to me that turbo lag would be entirely mechanical and could not be effected by a software mod.
What do you think controls the wastegate duty cycles???
Hint: Software!

This isn't some 80's wastegate actuator with a simple spring and arm that can be lengthened or shortened to control boost, it's all computer controlled.
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      07-16-2008, 11:06 AM   #312
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Why would a waste gate cycle? The waste gate should only open when there is excessive pressure in the system. What you are implying is that BMW deliberately programmed the engine computer to leave the waste gate open for a split second after you raise the RPMs causing the lag.

The time a turbo takes to generate adequate compression is limited mechanically by the size and design of the turbo and it's turbines - software cannot change that.
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      07-16-2008, 12:25 PM   #313
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For the record, I have a 135i, post March 2008 build, and I can definately see/feel sluggishness up to about 3K. After 3k--the car feels like a monster. Lower than that tho.....not so much.

I was in a parking lot yesterday, trying to make the tires bark in first with all the nannies on--it wouldn't do it. Now the 135 that I test drove back in March, and was an automatic mind you, WOULD do that.

To be frank--I am really pissed about this. The engine is touted as having NO turbo lag, and if you are lucky enough to have an older 335 or one of the very first 135's, that is how the engine performs. I really feel like I have been duped here....
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      07-16-2008, 12:30 PM   #314
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I agree, I have a mid March 135i build and I can def. feel turbo lag until about 2500 rpm. Kind of pisses me off, Id be REALLY pissed if I owned the car with no turbo lag, then wham, there is a ton of it.
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      07-16-2008, 12:32 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawshank772 View Post
I agree, I have a mid March 135i build and I can def. feel turbo lag until about 2500 rpm. Kind of pisses me off, Id be REALLY pissed if I owned the car with no turbo lag, then wham, there is a ton of it.
Well I drove a buddy's 335 over the holiday weekend, and that's what did it. His was an '07 that he picked up last march, and it was amazing how different the two felt. His definately did not have any lag below 3K RPM....so I really started paying attention to it and the more I drive it now, the more pissed I am.....
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      07-16-2008, 12:50 PM   #316
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You guys have to really pester the hell out of BMW for this. Threaten to not make payments to BMWFS. This is ridiculous.
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      07-16-2008, 12:58 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by slubu View Post
You guys have to really pester the hell out of BMW for this. Threaten to not make payments to BMWFS. This is ridiculous.
I really feel like this is a bait and switch situation. But I am in the lease for 3 years--what the hell can I do about it? Very frustrating, but I'm not sure there is an avenue which we can go down where we will get the car we all thought we were getting.....
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      07-16-2008, 02:41 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I really feel like this is a bait and switch situation. But I am in the lease for 3 years--what the hell can I do about it? Very frustrating, but I'm not sure there is an avenue which we can go down where we will get the car we all thought we were getting.....
Maybe not, but you agreed to pay for a car with no turbo lag. You were given a car with turbo lag. You have to check with the laws of your state, but that is false advertising, etc.
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      07-16-2008, 03:11 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerpath View Post
Why would a waste gate cycle? The waste gate should only open when there is excessive pressure in the system. What you are implying is that BMW deliberately programmed the engine computer to leave the waste gate open for a split second after you raise the RPMs causing the lag.

The time a turbo takes to generate adequate compression is limited mechanically by the size and design of the turbo and it's turbines - software cannot change that.
Uh, if you have some understanding of how turbos work you should know that the waste gate is VERY CRITICALLY important in allowing pressure to build up for instantaneous boost. Additionally important, it IS controlled electronically by the computer. That is the whole point of turbo tuning.

What BMW did with 29.2 is reduce the pressure buildup by allowing the waste gate to open earlier. Most likely they did this to reduce wear and tear on the turbos. Good for their bottom line in terms of warranty repirs but bad for us.
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      07-16-2008, 03:17 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slubu View Post
You guys have to really pester the hell out of BMW for this. Threaten to not make payments to BMWFS. This is ridiculous.
what are you going to tell the credit card companies?!

As for the 135i not barking in the parking lot - DTC/DSC off
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      07-16-2008, 04:14 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerpath View Post
Why would a waste gate cycle? The waste gate should only open when there is excessive pressure in the system. What you are implying is that BMW deliberately programmed the engine computer to leave the waste gate open for a split second after you raise the RPMs causing the lag.

The time a turbo takes to generate adequate compression is limited mechanically by the size and design of the turbo and it's turbines - software cannot change that.
Just do a search for waste gate duty cycles and read up and that should clarify a bunch for you.
It has been documented several times by knowledgable sources that the new 29.2+ progmans leave the wastegate open a lot more (40%) when cruising and at idle...hence the louder exhaust...hence the LAG.
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      07-16-2008, 04:16 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I really feel like this is a bait and switch situation. But I am in the lease for 3 years--what the hell can I do about it? Very frustrating, but I'm not sure there is an avenue which we can go down where we will get the car we all thought we were getting.....
I know what you mean man..

SIGN UP! http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149136
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      07-16-2008, 04:17 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawshank772 View Post
I agree, I have a mid March 135i build and I can def. feel turbo lag until about 2500 rpm. Kind of pisses me off, Id be REALLY pissed if I owned the car with no turbo lag, then wham, there is a ton of it.
Also, sign up here http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149136

Take a good read of that thread. It tells you the phone # and email to contact.

We have to FIGHT THE POWER!
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      07-16-2008, 06:18 PM   #324
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Ezatnova is right! Contact BMW every way you can. Through your dealer, email, phone calls, whatever it takes. Situations like this have happened with other types of vehicles with huge International corporations(Yamaha motorcycle) and the owners did win in the end. They have to hear it from enough people and believe that it will be a big problem and wont go away.
The key is to make sure they know that your decision to buy the car was based on their advertising claim of eliminating turbo lag. And now the car lags after it was serviced by BMW. What is causing the lag, while something we all want to know, is irrelevant when you contact BMW. Just the fact that you are experiencing it and it was not there when you got the car is what is very important. That along with the feelings you have about buying a car one way and then having the company change it to something less than what you paid for or what they advertise. This is something I learned from another legal matter I went through with a different company. It was the fact that the vehicle was advertised with a feature or claim, and that claim was a determining factor in the decision to buy the vehicle. Then, after taking ownership of the vehicle, it does not meet or perform up to the company statements or advertising claims.
It looks like this is going to be a bigger problem for the lease holders as they have a time constraint in which to take care of all this. If BMW goes into wait and see what happens mode, it would seem that they would be in a bad spot since they cant wait and see. I know that noone likes to pay for something they are not happy with, no matter how you are paying, lease, finance or cash so I hope that something happens soon so we can all just go enjoy our cars.
Please forgive me if this appears to be a rambling run on sentence but I havent had my Lucky Charms today and tomorrow I start my midlife crisis (its my birthday) so I apologize.
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      07-17-2008, 07:26 AM   #325
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Quote:
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I know what you mean man..

SIGN UP! http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149136
I signed up--thanks for the link.

And I know I can bark the tires with all the nannies off, but that is NOT how the car I test drive (which was also an AT) behaved!
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      07-17-2008, 11:25 AM   #326
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I wonder why none of the 135 guys are noticing any lag or sluggishness

If they are, I haven't noticed anything on 1addicts.
I think it's because the vast majority of us 135i guys got the 29.2 software right from the start, so we have nothing to compare it to. I will say however that the lag is much more pronounced then I expected based on the reviews I read prior to getting mine. However I ordered my 135i completely blind, which mean I never test drove one with the pre 29.2 software and really don't have anything to compare it to.

Related question... Does getting the Dinan flash "fix" this problem? Because I've been thinking about getting it and if it reduces the lag in addition to upping power then that might push me over the fence.

Dan
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      07-17-2008, 11:34 AM   #327
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I believe it does Dan.
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      07-17-2008, 12:01 PM   #328
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I have been following this thread since it spawned and iam disgusted to learn about this whole 29.2 fiasco..

I know some mentioned that this may be a case of false advertising. Whats funny is that the 09 335i just got its 'international press kit' released at
https://resource.bmwusa.com/pdf_b7fb...1cc65faa5.arox

and they STILL claim that the car outputs 400nm ~ 300ft/lbs of torque from 1300-5400 rpm !!

Doesnt this just strengthen/re-affirm our case against them false advertising??

Ofcourse assuming they dont already have a 'fix' planned before the 09 model hits the markets...
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      07-17-2008, 01:42 PM   #329
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It really isnt a matter of the amount of torque produced. I think that the issue of turbo lag is the strongest claim anyone would have. Torque and HP, and other measurements will vary from car to car no matter what, but BMW specifically said they eliminated turbo lag. So, if they eliminated it, we should not experience it. The tubos should kick in right away, not seconds later like what is happening. There doesnt rneed to be calculations and measurements taken to determine it.. Either there is lag or there is not, doesnt matter to what degree. and if there is then the claim they are making is false. I thiunk this approach will leave less grey area for anyone to try and work in.

As always this is the opionion of someone who has spent time in fully licensed psychiatric hospitals so I put it out there as something to ponder, not as one who has any legal degree.
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      07-17-2008, 01:53 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
I think it's because the vast majority of us 135i guys got the 29.2 software right from the start, so we have nothing to compare it to. I will say however that the lag is much more pronounced then I expected based on the reviews I read prior to getting mine. However I ordered my 135i completely blind, which mean I never test drove one with the pre 29.2 software and really don't have anything to compare it to.

Related question... Does getting the Dinan flash "fix" this problem? Because I've been thinking about getting it and if it reduces the lag in addition to upping power then that might push me over the fence.

Dan

i read about it in another thread that the base software for dinan mod is pre-29.2, therefore, it doesn't have the ill-effect of post-29.2 (nor would it have the benefit, if any, of the post-29.2)

i don't like the idea of taking out the physical unit of ECU and send it to dinan for mod, so i'm waiting to see how bmw handles this issue. when the newer dinan flash can be done with OBC port at the dealership without having to physically remove ECU, AND bmw got no fix by then, i might pull the trigger and do it.

and if bmw turns a blind eye on this issue, this will be my LAST BMW EVER. still kicking myself for not getting cayman s in order to save few bucks...
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