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      08-30-2008, 07:58 PM   #111
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Bayerische Motoren Werke!!

These cars need to be build by people drinking real bear (not Bud Light), eating bratwürst and drive the autobahn to work. One more reason to go back to Audi for me.
Bye.
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      08-30-2008, 08:15 PM   #112
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Only right-hand drive 3 Series are built in South Africa. :
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Meant e92s but thanks for the research!


Wrong again

E92/E93 - BMW 3 Series Coupés and Convertibles as well as M3 and M3 Convertibles are manufactured exclusively in Regensburg.
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      08-30-2008, 08:23 PM   #113
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My 2 cents.

1 - Toyota, known for the highest levels of reliability, since they started manufacturing their Corolla and Camry lines in the US have experienced MORE break downs since the transmissions were constructed in the US. The Japanese constructed vehicles did not have this flaw. Bottom line - the US worker didn't construct the vehicle to the same level of detail as the Japanese worker.

Toyota since raised their standards, much like Honda for their US constructed vehicles.

2 - US vehicle DESIGN. Face it, US engineers REALLY lost the plot somewhere in the mid 70's and really never recovered. ALL the really good GM variants out there are derived from their external US brands, Opel, Holden, Vauxhaul etc. Ford Australia and Europe also manufacture and design desirable and performance oriented vehicles that challenge BMW in finish and design (try a UK delivered GTO vs an M5 and you'll see it's a close call).

Bottom line - some serious changes are required in the US in regards to engineering and styling. Market forces are already starting this trend (i.e. the death of some GM and Ford brands - who'd buy a Malibu when an Accord LOOKS and PERFORMS better?). More "world" cars need to make it to the US, their design, efficiency and performance will help an ailing US based manufacturer - which is already occurring - Saturn are importing Belgium Opel's, Pontiac are rebadiging Australian built Holdens, Ford SHOULD import their high end Focus's from the UK, and potentially Falcon's from Aus too - more efficient and performance than that of US derived vehicles.

3 - There's no reason BMW COULDN'T BUILD great cars here - Honda have been doing it for 20 years because THEY HAVE HIGH STANDARDS. If these same standards are enforced here, then you should care less if an American, German, Brazilian or Saffa (Sth African) constructed your vehicle.

HOWEVER - if BMW EVER hired a US Engineer or designer - you can consider my interest in BMW finished. The engineering skill is what makes BMW a BMW, much like Honda and Toyota. US GM/FORD designers are simply not ready yet, their standards have been lax because the market ALLOWED them to be lax. They constructed cash cow SUV's and when they wanted to expand and change, they were restricted by the money men - the money was with the SUV. Look what happened when Ford purchased Jaguar - they had no idea how to design a Jag and the company went bust - people refused to buy a Jag that was essentially a Taurus....with the same reliability (not that Jag was very reliable before...lol).

Construct Yes.

Design No.
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      08-30-2008, 08:39 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_crome View Post
My 2 cents.

1 - Toyota, known for the highest levels of reliability, since they started manufacturing their Corolla and Camry lines in the US have experienced MORE break downs since the transmissions were constructed in the US. The Japanese constructed vehicles did not have this flaw. Bottom line - the US worker didn't construct the vehicle to the same level of detail as the Japanese worker.

Toyota since raised their standards, much like Honda for their US constructed vehicles.

2 - US vehicle DESIGN. Face it, US engineers REALLY lost the plot somewhere in the mid 70's and really never recovered. ALL the really good GM variants out there are derived from their external US brands, Opel, Holden, Vauxhaul etc. Ford Australia and Europe also manufacture and design desirable and performance oriented vehicles that challenge BMW in finish and design (try a UK delivered GTO vs an M5 and you'll see it's a close call).

Bottom line - some serious changes are required in the US in regards to engineering and styling. Market forces are already starting this trend (i.e. the death of some GM and Ford brands - who'd buy a Malibu when an Accord LOOKS and PERFORMS better?). More "world" cars need to make it to the US, their design, efficiency and performance will help an ailing US based manufacturer - which is already occurring - Saturn are importing Belgium Opel's, Pontiac are rebadiging Australian built Holdens, Ford SHOULD import their high end Focus's from the UK, and potentially Falcon's from Aus too - more efficient and performance than that of US derived vehicles.

3 - There's no reason BMW COULDN'T BUILD great cars here - Honda have been doing it for 20 years because THEY HAVE HIGH STANDARDS. If these same standards are enforced here, then you should care less if an American, German, Brazilian or Saffa (Sth African) constructed your vehicle.

HOWEVER - if BMW EVER hired a US Engineer or designer - you can consider my interest in BMW finished. The engineering skill is what makes BMW a BMW, much like Honda and Toyota. US GM/FORD designers are simply not ready yet, their standards have been lax because the market ALLOWED them to be lax. They constructed cash cow SUV's and when they wanted to expand and change, they were restricted by the money men - the money was with the SUV. Look what happened when Ford purchased Jaguar - they had no idea how to design a Jag and the company went bust - people refused to buy a Jag that was essentially a Taurus....with the same reliability (not that Jag was very reliable before...lol).

Construct Yes.

Design No.
The same, but in reverse, occured with the introduction of the 5AT on the J-Series with Honda/Acura.

It has little to nothing to do with capability of US engineers and more to do with economic restrictions faced by domestic manufacturers.

In approximately twenty years in the industrial sector I have seen failures by all engineers. The economic landscape often defines the allowances. That said, the aerospace engineering in this country is not lacking.
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      08-30-2008, 08:39 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by d_crome View Post
My 2 cents.

1 - Toyota, known for the highest levels of reliability, since they started manufacturing their Corolla and Camry lines in the US have experienced MORE break downs since the transmissions were constructed in the US. The Japanese constructed vehicles did not have this flaw. Bottom line - the US worker didn't construct the vehicle to the same level of detail as the Japanese worker.

Toyota since raised their standards, much like Honda for their US constructed vehicles.

2 - US vehicle DESIGN. Face it, US engineers REALLY lost the plot somewhere in the mid 70's and really never recovered. ALL the really good GM variants out there are derived from their external US brands, Opel, Holden, Vauxhaul etc. Ford Australia and Europe also manufacture and design desirable and performance oriented vehicles that challenge BMW in finish and design (try a UK delivered GTO vs an M5 and you'll see it's a close call).

Bottom line - some serious changes are required in the US in regards to engineering and styling. Market forces are already starting this trend (i.e. the death of some GM and Ford brands - who'd buy a Malibu when an Accord LOOKS and PERFORMS better?). More "world" cars need to make it to the US, their design, efficiency and performance will help an ailing US based manufacturer - which is already occurring - Saturn are importing Belgium Opel's, Pontiac are rebadiging Australian built Holdens, Ford SHOULD import their high end Focus's from the UK, and potentially Falcon's from Aus too - more efficient and performance than that of US derived vehicles.

3 - There's no reason BMW COULDN'T BUILD great cars here - Honda have been doing it for 20 years because THEY HAVE HIGH STANDARDS. If these same standards are enforced here, then you should care less if an American, German, Brazilian or Saffa (Sth African) constructed your vehicle.

HOWEVER - if BMW EVER hired a US Engineer or designer - you can consider my interest in BMW finished. The engineering skill is what makes BMW a BMW, much like Honda and Toyota. US GM/FORD designers are simply not ready yet, their standards have been lax because the market ALLOWED them to be lax. They constructed cash cow SUV's and when they wanted to expand and change, they were restricted by the money men - the money was with the SUV. Look what happened when Ford purchased Jaguar - they had no idea how to design a Jag and the company went bust - people refused to buy a Jag that was essentially a Taurus....with the same reliability (not that Jag was very reliable before...lol).

Construct Yes.

Design No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Bangle

Good bye to you too.
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      08-30-2008, 08:40 PM   #116
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Good point.

I always forget about Bangle and his country of origin.
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      08-30-2008, 08:42 PM   #117
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Good point.

I always forget about Bangle and his country of origin.
Apparently so do a lot of people.
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      08-30-2008, 08:43 PM   #118
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Wow, way to have faith in the American workforce. I swear, some of you are really effing snobby.

Edit: No, that wasn't strong enough. What I meant to say is that some of you make me fucking sick.
As an architect, it is a fact that American workmanship is grossly inferior to German and Japanese workmanship.
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      08-30-2008, 09:13 PM   #119
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Maybe we have too many holidays and those integrating to the culture add more to it so maybe alot of work isn't invested to the American workmanship.
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      08-30-2008, 09:19 PM   #120
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Maybe we have too many holidays and those integrating to the culture add more to it so maybe alot of work isn't invested to the American workmanship.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the statement. But we, the US worker, do not get six weeks paid vacation as a mandatory term of employement.
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      08-30-2008, 09:23 PM   #121
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I am talking about the holidays the national holidays that we have and then those who are native to their culture celebrate other holidays that contribute to an abundant amount of hooky in the work place. Just my theory. I don't include sick leave and other health related allowances.
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      08-30-2008, 09:25 PM   #122
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I am talking about the holidays the national holidays that we have and then those who are native to their culture celebrate other holidays that contribute to an abundant amount of hooky in the work place. Just my theory.
The American worker does work more days than the typical western European worker. But less than the typical Asian worker.
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      08-31-2008, 12:42 AM   #123
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Can anybody guess where the Porsche Caymans, Boxters, and Cayennes are manufactured?
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      08-31-2008, 12:52 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by d_crome View Post
My 2 cents.

1 - Toyota, known for the highest levels of reliability, since they started manufacturing their Corolla and Camry lines in the US have experienced MORE break downs since the transmissions were constructed in the US. The Japanese constructed vehicles did not have this flaw. Bottom line - the US worker didn't construct the vehicle to the same level of detail as the Japanese worker.

Toyota since raised their standards, much like Honda for their US constructed vehicles.

2 - US vehicle DESIGN. Face it, US engineers REALLY lost the plot somewhere in the mid 70's and really never recovered. ALL the really good GM variants out there are derived from their external US brands, Opel, Holden, Vauxhaul etc. Ford Australia and Europe also manufacture and design desirable and performance oriented vehicles that challenge BMW in finish and design (try a UK delivered GTO vs an M5 and you'll see it's a close call).

Bottom line - some serious changes are required in the US in regards to engineering and styling. Market forces are already starting this trend (i.e. the death of some GM and Ford brands - who'd buy a Malibu when an Accord LOOKS and PERFORMS better?). More "world" cars need to make it to the US, their design, efficiency and performance will help an ailing US based manufacturer - which is already occurring - Saturn are importing Belgium Opel's, Pontiac are rebadiging Australian built Holdens, Ford SHOULD import their high end Focus's from the UK, and potentially Falcon's from Aus too - more efficient and performance than that of US derived vehicles.

3 - There's no reason BMW COULDN'T BUILD great cars here - Honda have been doing it for 20 years because THEY HAVE HIGH STANDARDS. If these same standards are enforced here, then you should care less if an American, German, Brazilian or Saffa (Sth African) constructed your vehicle.

HOWEVER - if BMW EVER hired a US Engineer or designer - you can consider my interest in BMW finished. The engineering skill is what makes BMW a BMW, much like Honda and Toyota. US GM/FORD designers are simply not ready yet, their standards have been lax because the market ALLOWED them to be lax. They constructed cash cow SUV's and when they wanted to expand and change, they were restricted by the money men - the money was with the SUV. Look what happened when Ford purchased Jaguar - they had no idea how to design a Jag and the company went bust - people refused to buy a Jag that was essentially a Taurus....with the same reliability (not that Jag was very reliable before...lol).

Construct Yes.

Design No.

Need to stop pissing on the engineers. Engineers are not the weak link in automotive design. It's not the engineers who caused the american car industry to become inferior - it was management building cars to a cost.

Most every engineer I've ever met, if left to their own devices, would build build the best quality/performing product they possibly could. If you think about it, that's really kind of the whole point of being an engineer. As long as there is passion and commitment to building a high performance product, then it does not matter where the car is built, nor who engineers it.


To the overall point of this thread: Is it nice to have a german-built car? - Yes. Should it affect your buying decision? Only if there is demonstrable evidence that where the car is built has had a detrimental effect on cost.
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      08-31-2008, 12:57 AM   #125
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Can anybody guess where the Porsche Caymans, Boxters, and Cayennes are manufactured?
In my backyard...
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      08-31-2008, 01:20 AM   #126
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Can anybody guess where the Porsche Caymans, Boxters, and Cayennes are manufactured?
Cayman: Finland
Boxster: Germany and Finland
Cayenne: Germany and Slovakia
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      08-31-2008, 01:54 AM   #127
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It has to be the unions, that make people lazy!
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      08-31-2008, 02:06 AM   #128
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It has to be the unions, that make people lazzy!
And the educational system for people's inability to spell.
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      08-31-2008, 02:46 AM   #129
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Why does it matter where the car is built? BMW has 23 manufacturing plants in 12 countries.Better double check Porsche...they are building the Boxster and Cayman at the Magna Steyr Plant in Austria....subbed out if you will...same place the lowly X3 and Chrysler 300 are built.Better do a double,double check...the new VW/Audi plant in Tennessee will probably build Porsche's as well.It's a new day in international auto manufacturing.Thanks! PalBay
i agree.the car is the same,quality is the same,brand is the same.It DOES NOT matter where the car is built
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      08-31-2008, 03:15 AM   #130
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I don't think there will be big issues. Nuts and bolts need to be torque a certain amount, engines need to be checked before they go into the car and quality control gets to deal with the end product. If that all doesn't work, we in california still have the lemon law and (for everybody) warranty to 50k.
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      08-31-2008, 03:32 AM   #131
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Ahhhh - so he's the guy that made the new series of BMW's UGLIER than the last? Ah - makes sense now, no wonder my car looks like a Hyundai ripoff and why I had such a hard time of convincing my heart to go with my head over an E46 M3 - the chassis and engine were what won me over - the design did not.

I do believe that this quote from Top Gear (Also located in the link so kindly provided by the poster) says it all in regards to this designer:

"This guy's had a lot of stick, this designer, and I think rightly so, because everyone of his cars, they're horrible, they really are, and they should fire this guy,"

For DESIGN notes (i.e. AESTHETICS) please look at Audi...they surely have it right.

And also note - Engineering is more than designing the best without constraints - that's a scientist involved in R&D, or a development team with an F1 team. An ENGINEER designs WITHIN constraints, be that material or COST etc. If Japanese/European designers (not strictly prestige European, I'm talking lower end, like Fiat, Renault, Ford UK, Opel et al) can produce cars that perform better for less $ then the US can as well.

Right now the US is behind the 8 ball. They got lazy and figured consumers would buy SUV's till the cows came home. Workmanship was shoddy because the US manufacturer anticipated that most here would want a new vehicle before the old vehicle broke down. Hence the life span of a generic US vehicle and it's corresponding workmanship could be lax as most would simply have upgraded anyway.

I'm not saying the US can't EVER do a good job - not at all - they can. But their current hit or miss ratio is far off the curve. The US engineers will HAVE to change and improve, else in 5 years GM will be no more. Capitalism is a great thing when it actually works.

My money says they will - I eagerly wait to see the Chevy Volt and other new ideas that the SUV had held down for so long.

Most people here also chose to really miss my point - the DESIGNERS here (the guys that are responsible for creating arguably THE most ugly cars in the world - take a look at the ENTIRE PONTIAC line and tell me that ONE remotely is appealing). I've had friends here from overseas make me PULL OVER so they can take pictures of Pontiac Azteks or other vehicles because THEY ARE SO F'N UGLY.

Now that's my point - US Design - AT THIS POINT IN TIME - is bad. Engineering is getting better.

And seriously - the US work hours are amongst the highest in the world. 2 weeks vacation, 1 week sick leave, 7 public holidays - and you think that's lax?? I'd hate to work in your sweat shop buddy. OTHER countries work LESS and actually are more productive on a man-hr basis.

The point of the thread - if BMW construct 3 series here - would you buy it?

YES - so long as the manufacturing process was maintained to BMW current levels.

If the 3 series was DESIGN and ENGINEERED here - would I buy it?

NO. Simple answer really. Wouldn't consider a US designed vehicle for another decade.
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      08-31-2008, 04:02 AM   #132
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nice everyone here can go buy a M3 then. Hopefully the ///M's wont be built in US ??
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