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      09-02-2008, 08:28 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by spacemonkey1112 View Post
That like saying You bought a Swiss watch that is made in America. Completely ridiculous.
If the vehicle were hand made, I would agree with this. But automated manufacturering is different. The location is basically irrelevant when the PLM is conducted in Germany.
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      09-03-2008, 12:02 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Staszek View Post
Tell that to all the Toyota owners who get there cars out of Kentucky and still constantly rank as some of the best built most reliable cars in the world.

Its not where the car is built (well maybe in China), it is how it is designed and the equipment used to build them.

GM makes crap because the cars were designed like junk, not because of the workers (sure they may be a bit slower).

Check the X3/Z4 boards those cars are pretty reliable, and definitely not less so then the German built 3 series.
Good point!
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      09-03-2008, 12:20 PM   #179
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I don't see what the big deal is. BMW has been manufacturing the X's and Z's in South Carolina for years and they do not seem to have suffered for it.

The big downside for me would be no European delivery.
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      09-03-2008, 03:23 PM   #180
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Tell that to all the Toyota owners who get there cars out of Kentucky and still constantly rank as some of the best built most reliable cars in the world.
Well, unfortunately, this was not the case for my dad. His previous car was a 1995 Camry, which was built in Japan (I know from the vin number). Despite being crashed rather badly twice, the ONLY thing that broke were literally the self extending antenna and a light bulb on the dashboard. Apart from those, not even a rust spot... Amazing!! So, when that car was written off after a second accident, 10 years and 370,000 km on the clock, my dad got another Camry without a second thought. In fact, he didn't bother with a test drive.

The second one, a 2005 made in Canada I guess, was a lot less than impressive. The car makes a god awful buzzing noise at highway speeds (something in the engine room is vibrating as the car gain speed), there are rust spots everywhere and one of the window regulators work intermittently. All this on a car less than 4 years old and around 60,000 km... Also, there's the feel of the car. The older one, despite being smaller and being crashed twice, still felt surprisingly solid. The 2005 feels... well... flimsy... (although, this could be distorted as I'm used to my BMW... which still feels solid as a rock at 9 years old).

I know a fair bit about manufacturing processes and I realize that the process design is much more important than the workers. The factories in Germany are mostly automated anyways, so if they bring in the same equipment, there shouldn't be much of a difference. Nonetheless, given my experience with my dad's Camry, I'm not happy with the prospect of getting an American build 3 series....
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      09-03-2008, 04:09 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by DuckofPrey View Post
Well, unfortunately, this was not the case for my dad. His previous car was a 1995 Camry, which was built in Japan (I know from the vin number). Despite being crashed rather badly twice, the ONLY thing that broke were literally the self extending antenna and a light bulb on the dashboard. Apart from those, not even a rust spot... Amazing!! So, when that car was written off after a second accident, 10 years and 370,000 km on the clock, my dad got another Camry without a second thought. In fact, he didn't bother with a test drive.

The second one, a 2005 made in Canada I guess, was a lot less than impressive. The car makes a god awful buzzing noise at highway speeds (something in the engine room is vibrating as the car gain speed), there are rust spots everywhere and one of the window regulators work intermittently. All this on a car less than 4 years old and around 60,000 km... Also, there's the feel of the car. The older one, despite being smaller and being crashed twice, still felt surprisingly solid. The 2005 feels... well... flimsy... (although, this could be distorted as I'm used to my BMW... which still feels solid as a rock at 9 years old). .
Hmmm... your comparison between a 95 Camry and a 2005 Camry leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of things may have happened to decrease quality over that time, which may or may not have anything to do with the location where the car was manufactured. It sucks that your dad's brand allegiance had negative results, but really, the only way to be sure whether this has anything to do with where the car was manufactured versus how the 2005 generation was designed (i.e. whether economic compromises were made with regards to materials, structural rigidity, etc., to cram in more goodies) is either to purchase two identical cars made in different factories or to find a study that compares things like that. I'm much too poor to do the former and much too lazy to do the latter. I'm just saying that your conclusion is a bit faulty.
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      09-03-2008, 04:31 PM   #182
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Well, unfortunately, this was not the case for my dad. His previous car was a 1995 Camry, which was built in Japan (I know from the vin number). Despite being crashed rather badly twice, the ONLY thing that broke were literally the self extending antenna and a light bulb on the dashboard. Apart from those, not even a rust spot... Amazing!! So, when that car was written off after a second accident, 10 years and 370,000 km on the clock, my dad got another Camry without a second thought. In fact, he didn't bother with a test drive.

The second one, a 2005 made in Canada I guess, was a lot less than impressive. The car makes a god awful buzzing noise at highway speeds (something in the engine room is vibrating as the car gain speed), there are rust spots everywhere and one of the window regulators work intermittently. All this on a car less than 4 years old and around 60,000 km... Also, there's the feel of the car. The older one, despite being smaller and being crashed twice, still felt surprisingly solid. The 2005 feels... well... flimsy... (although, this could be distorted as I'm used to my BMW... which still feels solid as a rock at 9 years old).

I know a fair bit about manufacturing processes and I realize that the process design is much more important than the workers. The factories in Germany are mostly automated anyways, so if they bring in the same equipment, there shouldn't be much of a difference. Nonetheless, given my experience with my dad's Camry, I'm not happy with the prospect of getting an American build 3 series....
Every car company produces lemons.

I remember the 2001 745's there was a guy in Asia I believe, who had his car break down and die so many times he actually had a donkey pulling it through town (because it wouldnt run) to show BMW how pissed he was with it.

I am going off of every reliability report over the past several years that still places Toyota at the top.
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      09-03-2008, 04:31 PM   #183
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I think its kinda sucks that the 3 series is going to be produced in America. I'm not saying that because I don't "believe" in the American workforce or whatever crap you want to argue, but I would expect that I would be paying for a German engineered car to be produced in Germany. Seriously, People will be paying for a European Import that isn't being produced in Europe? That like saying You bought a Swiss watch that is made in America. Completely ridiculous.
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I don't see what the big deal is. BMW has been manufacturing the X's and Z's in South Carolina for years and they do not seem to have suffered for it.

The big downside for me would be no European delivery.

Indeed, one does not refuse to buy the X5 simply bcs it is made in the USA, does one? And I have not heard anyone say that the X5 (and the Z class as a whole) are poorer for it or less well build.

The factory with the highest quality rating in the BMW universe is in fact the one located in South Africa!! Frankly I was more concerned initially when Porsche announced a factory in Leiptzig, than the announcement by BMW of US production.

Oh and if we really want to freak out the Audi fan club let them know that VW is planning a factory which will build off the same line(s) VW, Audis and..............................Porsche Cayennes (Not that there is really anything wrong with that)
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      09-05-2008, 10:00 AM   #184
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BMW has a plant in China to build the 5er for the Asian market...

It's not where the car is built...its the type of employees who put it together. The reason why most of the foreign auto makers stay out of making plants in Detroit is because of the lazy UAW and other unions. Not to say that unions are bad, but they have really brought down the big 3. Also, the SC plant is at the foremost of modern manufacturing to global standards. I can't believe some people on this post.
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      09-05-2008, 10:02 AM   #185
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BMW has a plant in China to build the 5er for the Asian market...

It's not where the car is built...its the type of employees who put it together. The reason why most of the foreign auto makers stay out of making plants in Detroit is because of the lazy UAW and other unions. Not to say that unions are bad, but they have really brought down the big 3. Also, the SC plant is at the foremost of modern manufacturing to global standards. I can't believe some people on this post.
the 3-series sold in China are built in China as well....
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      09-05-2008, 10:24 AM   #186
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If BMW starts making cars in the USA I will either stop buying them entirely or buy the ones NOT made in the USA. Sorry but the US has sucked at making cars for quite some time now. The only way I'd consider a US built car if it's not built by a union.
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      09-05-2008, 10:28 AM   #187
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If BMW starts making cars in the USA I will either stop buying them entirely or buy the ones NOT made in the USA. Sorry but the US has sucked at making cars for quite some time now. The only way I'd consider a US built car if it's not built by a union.
I guess no Z4's, X3's or X5's for you then. Are you aware that BMW has been building cars in South Carolina since 1994?
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      09-05-2008, 10:33 AM   #188
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I would rather have my car say "made in germany" rather than "made in usa"

but some cars that should be "made in usa" say "made in mexico"

germany>usa>mexico
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      09-05-2008, 11:07 AM   #189
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If it's a BMW it will be built to exacting standards regardless of whether the factory is in the USA, RSA, FRG, CR, or RÍ.
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      09-05-2008, 11:42 AM   #190
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If it's a BMW it will be built to exacting standards regardless of whether the factory is in the USA, RSA, FRG, CR, or RÍ.
+1
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      09-05-2008, 11:55 AM   #191
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If BMW starts making cars in the USA I will either stop buying them entirely or buy the ones NOT made in the USA. Sorry but the US has sucked at making cars for quite some time now. The only way I'd consider a US built car if it's not built by a union.
They have in fact been building here since 1994 and they are non-union. If you were to take the plant tour in Spartanburg then take a GM/Ford/Chrysler tour you would realize how absolutely ignorant your statement is.
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      09-05-2008, 12:20 PM   #192
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They have in fact been building here since 1994 and they are non-union. If you were to take the plant tour in Spartanburg then take a GM/Ford/Chrysler tour you would realize how absolutely ignorant your statement is.
Even more ignorant is to compare cars between segments and price points. Most of the people who make blanket statements that American cars suck don't take into consideration comparative market segments. If BMW had to sell a car at the price point of say a Honda Civic, or Chevy Malibu, it wouldn't compete very well in the US. Let's face it, the 3 Series is an overpriced economy car (with a big engine in the U.S.) that barely matches or sometimes beats domestic US products in reliability and defects per 100 hundred vehicles statistics. Just think if Honda had another $18,000 worth of content in a Civic.

BMWs improved greatly once Lexus, Acura, and Infinity came on the scene.
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      09-05-2008, 01:23 PM   #193
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They have in fact been building here since 1994 and they are non-union. If you were to take the plant tour in Spartanburg then take a GM/Ford/Chrysler tour you would realize how absolutely ignorant your statement is.
I never claimed to be fully versed with the manufacturing process of X5s, X3s, or Zs. I only care about the ones made in Germany and of those only the X3s are available to US cutomers via European delivery. Calling me ignorant because I don't look like a typical American car buyer is inflammatory so feel free to grow up at any time. I know enough that the first gen X5s were built a hell of a lot better than the subsequent SC built ones.

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I guess no Z4's, X3's or X5's for you then. Are you aware that BMW has been building cars in South Carolina since 1994?
Yes, I'm aware. I do not intend to ever purchase a X5 but I will consider a X3 since I can do European delivery.
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      09-05-2008, 02:09 PM   #194
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Just anecdotal and not related to BMW but the worst vehicle I ever owned was a 1998 Mercedes ML320. IMO it was because this was Mercedes first foray into US-based mfg and a first year product - so it became the perfect storm! So just because we are talking German know how does not mean there might not be a misstep. I know this was Mercedes :-)

Have not owned one since and never will...
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      09-05-2008, 02:13 PM   #195
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Yes, I'm aware. I do not intend to ever purchase a X5 but I will consider a X3 since I can do European delivery.
Then why did you begin your statement with, "If BMW starts making cars in the USA?"
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      09-05-2008, 02:13 PM   #196
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IMO it was because this was Mercedes first foray into US-based mfg and a first year product
Couldn't the whole matter revolve around the first year of a completely new type of vehicles for MB?
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      09-05-2008, 02:28 PM   #197
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Wow, do you think some of you guys can watch your language so I don't have to edit 300 different posts, thanks.

With that said, after moving to the lovely state of NC I can say that I have absolutely zero faith in the American workforce, at least from this part of the country, and I would be much more happy if they continued to build the 3'er in Germany. Yes, there are certainly exceptions, but they seem to be few and far between in all honesty.
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      09-05-2008, 02:36 PM   #198
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Wow, do you think some of you guys can watch your language so I don't have to edit 300 different posts, thanks.

With that said, after moving to the lovely state of NC I can say that I have absolutely zero faith in the American workforce, at least from this part of the country, and I would be much more happy if they continued to build the 3'er in Germany. Yes, there are certainly exceptions, but they seem to be few and far between in all honesty.
That is not fair, you are in Wilmington.

Seriously, not far up the road from you they are producing much of the countries pharmaceuticals and medical supplements all done by Americans.
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