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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dyno: aFe Pro-Dry S Intake VS Stock Air Box



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      09-07-2008, 08:53 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mJ335 View Post
WOW.. so my review on the "butt dyno" actually tricked me. Just because my throttle response on the AFE was excellent, I guess it just felt like my car was quicker in performance as well. So.. I purchased the RPI scoops a couple days ago. That proves to have 8~15 hp gains at 40+mph. Sorry to kind of thread jack, but is this advertisement true??

If this one's wrong as well, then I spent a total of half a G for nothing.. lol.
I think some of us are jumping the gun here; more dynos with different setups (e.g. tuned 335i w/ oiled aFe filter, "other" dual cone filter intakes, etc.) are needed before we can come to the conclusion that these intakes actually lose power. As my wife says, "don't give up."

However, the thing that I don't like is the fact that with these "open, in engine" intakes, they are not fully a connected and sealed box system like the oem stock intake (so the outside air comes in directly through the grill, through the snorkel, and into a closed, sealed intake box, and then through the air filter to the engine); this means that these open intakes suck a lot of hotter air from the engine bay into the engine...that can't be a good thing.

Either way, I spent $319 on this aFe intake, and I'm going to try it for a month or two; if I see more dynos (especially on cars with a similar setup as mine) that show a loss and/or feel a loss myself, then I'll remove it, and put my oem stock intake + BMC drop-in air filter back on. This sucks!
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      09-07-2008, 09:03 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ala012 View Post
Intake also reduces the boost psi.

Aftermarket intake will decrease the stock boost about 0.5-1psi.

That's what i heard.

Maybe lower boost, that's why ?
If true, then maybe this is why Shiv designed v3 Stage 1 map to increase boost and compensate for this potential boost reduction? I wish Shiv would chime in on all this. He sells his own "dual cone intake" for $195 and it too sits on top with just the oem stock intake snorkel just hanging in front of the Vishnu dual cone filters. It is a very similar setup as the aFe intake, except with no heat shield.

http://www.vishnutuning.com/bmw_dual_filter.htm

Shiv...please advise. Thanks.
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      09-07-2008, 09:43 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
However, the thing that I don't like is the fact that with these "open, in engine" intakes, they are not fully a connected and sealed box system like the oem stock intake (so the outside air comes in directly through the grill, through the snorkel, and into a closed, sealed intake box, and then through the air filter to the engine); this means that these open intakes suck a lot of hotter air from the engine bay into the engine...that can't be a good thing.
Cut some vents in your hood right above the intake.
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      09-07-2008, 10:15 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Cut some vents in your hood right above the intake.
LOL; yeah, funny b/c I was thinking about the old muscle cars with the air filters that stick out about 6 in. ABOVE the hood, through a hole in the hood.
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      09-07-2008, 10:45 AM   #49
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Too bad someone can't test track results. Make some runs with the stock box, and then with the AFE. Or at least some accelerometer testing. 3 stock, and then make 3 witht the AFE. Dyno numbers sometimes don't replicate real world conditions as we have seen before.
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      09-07-2008, 12:15 PM   #50
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Well, I just drove around in beautiful, dry sunny weather to do a couple errands, and I have to say that although I have no idea if my aFe intake is making or losing any HP/TQ, my car feels very good; it seems to be pulling as hard or harder than before (with the oem stock intake + BMC drop-in filter). I have the oiled aFe intake and may or may not have a tune. I would definitely like to see more dynos.
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      09-07-2008, 12:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
Well, I just drove around in beautiful, dry sunny weather to do a couple errands, and I have to say that although I have no idea if my aFe intake is making or losing any HP/TQ, my car feels very good; it seems to be pulling as hard or harder than before (with the oem stock intake + BMC drop-in filter). I have the oiled aFe intake and may or may not have a tune. I would definitely like to see more dynos.
I have the dry version.. and funny thing is i do feel more pulls than before as well.. maybe I shouldn't "give up" like you said..
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      09-07-2008, 12:42 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mJ335 View Post
I have the dry version.. and funny thing is i do feel more pulls than before as well.. maybe I shouldn't "give up" like you said..
Well, I didn't break out my Beltronics Vector FX-1 accelerometer, but I know my car, and it's running well and pulling very hard with the aFe intake, so... I want to see more dynos and hear from Shiv on the 'dual intake sitting over the engine bay' thing.
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      09-07-2008, 12:53 PM   #53
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like i said before... its hard to see gains from this intake setup on the dyno. It is designed for a moving car. Also as i said before you need to get just as much air out as your trying to put in. I would think guys with a tune at ~ 15psi should see about 10hp or so with an afe. Guys with catless Dp's etc. should see 15-20hp. I guess more dynos will tell.
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      09-07-2008, 12:57 PM   #54
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Well I can see it being with a stock car but what about results with a JB3 installed
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      09-07-2008, 12:58 PM   #55
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Ahh man.. does that mean DPs will be my next mod...?? Damn.. more drugs to sell.. lol
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      09-07-2008, 01:04 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaross305 View Post
like i said before... its hard to see gains from this intake setup on the dyno. It is designed for a moving car. Also as i said before you need to get just as much air out as your trying to put in. I would think guys with a tune at ~ 15psi should see about 10hp or so with an afe. Guys with catless Dp's etc. should see 15-20hp. I guess more dynos will tell.
I know a bunch of ppl with this setup are hoping so. btw -- how did you like the game last night? First win for the Gators over the 'Canes since 1985!!!! Of course they looked like crap for the first 3 quarters, but they stomped them in the end 26-3 (although it should've been 30-3).
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      09-07-2008, 01:20 PM   #57
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From another forum I was provided some info I never considered with the AFE vs stock box. It is true that the AFE or any duel cone set up will see 40-50 deg higher intake temp, however, the overall pressure of the system is reduced creating a more efficent/less restrictive breathing engine.

Others have posted the same IAT post intercooler (stock box vs duel cone)...so this does make sense.

I think there are many variables with the dyno's, but I think in the real world people are "feeling" better power with the AFE...... I'm not going to give up on the AFE intake just yet
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      09-07-2008, 01:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ala012 View Post
Intake also reduces the boost psi.

Aftermarket intake will decrease the stock boost about 0.5-1psi.

That's what i heard.

Maybe lower boost, that's why ?
Good point. The boost readings with the aFe compared to stock are lower.
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      09-07-2008, 02:13 PM   #59
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Its obvious your not going to make 27hp with an intake. When those are the kind of numbers catless downpipes produce.
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      09-07-2008, 02:41 PM   #60
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Its obvious your not going to make 27hp with an intake. When those are the kind of numbers catless downpipes produce.
I don't think anyone here believes the aFe claims of +27WHP. However, I think most of us feel that losing WHP doesn't make sense either, especially on tuned cars. So, until we see more dynos and hear more "expert" explanations about the 'dual cone open intake on top of the engine bay' that either concur or disagree with the findings of the OP, I think the jury is still out.
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      09-07-2008, 02:49 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
I know a bunch of ppl with this setup are hoping so. btw -- how did you like the game last night? First win for the Gators over the 'Canes since 1985!!!! Of course they looked like crap for the first 3 quarters, but they stomped them in the end 26-3 (although it should've been 30-3).

Yea it def. was a nice sight to see. It was crazy here in G-ville with all the Miami fans. It was fun though. Im glad we killed them. I was a little worried in the first half with Tebow constantly getting pressured. But we prevailed. Sorry i don't want to

I have forge dv's, AFE, JB3, and RR catless dp's. Im pre 29.2 and manual. Im going to do a dyno with and without the AFE and see the difference. Im going to try and find at least a 50mph fan but the higher the better, and see what the gain is with the AFE. Im going to do the runs with the hood closed for both intakes.
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      09-07-2008, 02:54 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by camaross305 View Post
Yea it def. was a nice sight to see. It was crazy here in G-ville with all the Miami fans. It was fun though. Im glad we killed them. I was a little worried in the first half with Tebow constantly getting pressured. But we prevailed. Sorry i don't want to

I have forge dv's, AFE, JB3, and RR catless dp's. Im pre 29.2 and manual. Im going to do a dyno with and without the AFE and see the difference. Im going to try and find at least a 50mph fan but the higher the better, and see what the gain is with the AFE. Im going to do the runs with the hood closed for both intakes.
Thanks; I know a lot of ppl are looking forward to your dyno results. Any way you could replace your RR catless DPs with your stock DPs? j/k But, even with your DPs, it might give us a better idea of any gains (or not???) of the aFe intake on a tuned car.
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      09-07-2008, 02:57 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
Thanks; I know a lot of ppl are looking forward to your dyno results. Any way you could replace your RR catless DPs with your stock DPs? j/k But, even with your DPs, it might give us a better idea of any gains (or not???) of the aFe intake on a tuned car.
Yea no prob. hopefully the AFE will yield AT LEAST 10rwhp.
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      09-07-2008, 04:53 PM   #64
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Nice piece of work ericsmc83 which basically confirms what I've been saying for some time now.

Intakes, in general, are not going to produce a whole lot of gain - any company claiming 27 hp should be avoided like the plague.

Any road racer will tell you that it's all about intake air temps. Doesn't matter if your ride has a "tune" or not - unless you're talking about 500+ hp.

However, a "dyno for hire" is not going to have the 80+ mph fans necessary to test ANY air intake system. Dinan and others could prove to be a real resource here (they have those 'wind tunnel' kind of fans).

So where to go from here? IMHO, look at a true CAI system, try to find a dyno test facility with the 'mother of all fans.' AND, be happy with BMW's performance intake claims of +3 hp @ 6000 rpm. IF you can find a system to match or slighly beat that, you're doing about as best you can.

As an added note: notice that the BMW engineers didn't go with a cone or for that matter, a dual-cone setup, but just went with a secondary source of cold air. Unfortunately their CF setup will probably run close to $1K, but maybe the aftermarket guys will come up with something less exotic looking and at a lot lower price.
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      09-07-2008, 07:37 PM   #65
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Perhaps the intake isnt the bottleneck here? Perhaps the exhaust as a whole is the restriction and intake mods are worthless unless this weak link is upgraded?
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      09-07-2008, 07:39 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90AW335i View Post
Get the dual cones man, for $139 from BMS you cant go wrong....
So, again, how can other dual-cone intakes that also sit at the top of the engine bay (and are not true CAIs) like Terry's BMS dual-cone intake and the Vishnu dual-cone intake provide real gains, but the aFe intake supposedly loses power? Doesn't make sense to me.

From Shiv's technical data about the Vishnu Dual-Cone Intake...

"This is also why drop-in air filter upgrades are only worth a few horsepower and not the 15-25whp we often see with our high flow Dual Intake System!"

"What about cold air ducting?

The truth behind the matter is that lack of restriction is far more important than "cold air ducting". Especially in intercooled turbo systems. In such a system, the only temperature that matters is that of the air as it enters the intake manifold. But this air has already been on a long journey. It originally entered the system at the air filters. Then it traveled through the turbos, through a bunch of piping, then through the intercooler, through more piping and only then to the intake manifold. With the exception of when it passed through the intercooler, the air picked up heat at every stop. The largest heat gain occurred in the turbo during the compression stage. Here, air temps can easily rise by 150 deg F. A whole lot more than the 10-30 deg F gained from drawing air from under the hood (and not through a cold air box.)

With the vast majority of heat generated in the compression stage, it makes sense to address this stage and see what we can do to cool things down. First of all, we can actually reduce the amount of compression. And yes, we can do this without reducing boost pressure simply by eliminating the negative pressure (vacuum) at the turbocharger inlet. This reduces the pressure ratio which makes the turbo spin slower and generates less heat. And not only is there less heat generated through the reduction in compressor RPM, the amount of exhaust backpressure is also reduced. Add both effects together and you get a car that makes more power with less stress on the turbo. In fact, at 14-15psi of boost, our Dual Intake system offers a 15-25whp advantage over the stock cold air ducted airbox. And not only that, intake temps at the intake manifold is measurably cooler (that's what datalogging is for!).

How much power will I make with it?

With our PROcede v3 running the standard map, on an otherwise stock car, expect to see 360-370whp on a dynojet. Assuming proper testing methods of course (good intercooler fans, reasonable ventilation, etc,.)

http://www.vishnutuningforum.com/for...read.php?t=421

Then, there's Terry's BMS Dual-Cone Intake dyno @ +8WHP/+13 lb-ft. RWTQ...

http://www.rixeffects.com/store/node/22
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