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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dyno: aFe Pro-Dry S Intake VS Stock Air Box



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      09-07-2008, 07:51 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
So, again, how can other dual-cone intakes that also sit at the top of the engine bay (and are not true CAIs) like Terry's BMS dual-cone intake and the Vishnu dual-cone intake provide real gains, but the aFe intake supposedly loses power? Doesn't make sense to me.

From Shiv's Technical data about the Vishnu Dual-Cone Intake...

"This is also why drop-in air filter upgrades are only worth a few horsepower and not the 15-25whp we often see with our high flow Dual Intake System!"

Then, there's Terry's BMS Dual-Cone Intake dyno's @ +8WHP/+13 lb-ft. RWTQ...

http://www.vishnutuningforum.com/for...read.php?t=421

http://www.rixeffects.com/store/node/22
I think it has to do with surface area and flow rates of the filters
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      09-07-2008, 08:04 PM   #68
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I think it has to do with surface area and flow rates of the filters
Ok, so the oem stock filter or any other aftermarket drop-in air filter is 90 sq. in. and Shiv says each of his cone filters is 100 sq. in.; so the dual cone intake has > 2x the amt. of surface area for the air to pass through the filters.

Although I'm not sure exactly how much surface area each of the aFe cone filters has, but they look quite large to me and they definitely have a better flow rate than the oem stock filter.
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      09-07-2008, 08:09 PM   #69
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Yes IAT makes a difference with a N/A motor so a true C.A.I does offer significant gains when compared to an intake in the engine bay. However, on a motor like ours the air is going straight to the turbo's where about 1/2'' away is the exhaust manifold, hot sides of the turbos, etc. So cool air is not going to make much of a difference because no matter how cool it is once it goes by those turbos its just going to get heated right back up. Thats not to say we dont benefit from cooler air comming in but it has to be a SIGNIFICANT difference to add any sort of HP compared to an N/A motor. A turbo motor like our will benefit more from an efficent FMIC then a C.A.I. Get an intake that breathes as good as possiable and then get an efficent FMIC.

I dont know if you can say an intake doesnt help. Go for a jog with a straw in your mouth and only breather out of that. Then go for a jog and breathe out of your mouth like normal. You tell me which is easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SennaZ View Post
Nice piece of work ericsmc83 which basically confirms what I've been saying for some time now.

Intakes, in general, are not going to produce a whole lot of gain - any company claiming 27 hp should be avoided like the plague.

Any road racer will tell you that it's all about intake air temps. Doesn't matter if your ride has a "tune" or not - unless you're talking about 500+ hp.

However, a "dyno for hire" is not going to have the 80+ mph fans necessary to test ANY air intake system. Dinan and others could prove to be a real resource here (they have those 'wind tunnel' kind of fans).

So where to go from here? IMHO, look at a true CAI system, try to find a dyno test facility with the 'mother of all fans.' AND, be happy with BMW's performance intake claims of +3 hp @ 6000 rpm. IF you can find a system to match or slighly beat that, you're doing about as best you can.

As an added note: notice that the BMW engineers didn't go with a cone or for that matter, a dual-cone setup, but just went with a secondary source of cold air. Unfortunately their CF setup will probably run close to $1K, but maybe the aftermarket guys will come up with something less exotic looking and at a lot lower price.
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      09-07-2008, 09:27 PM   #70
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Check out the AFE site: http://www.afeproducts.com/IntakeSytemstestold.php

I see no listings for the AFE 135/335 intake. I wonder if their legal department advised them to stop production and pull them off the market pending future litigation?????
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      09-07-2008, 09:30 PM   #71
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It's strange. As far as I know, the turbo charged cars can't be influenced by the shape of intake and filter much. Sometimes, turbo charged cars put the filter on turbo charger directly. I did this on my previous car which has after market turbo chager and got a better dyno result. The amount of air is a critical fator for turbos. The shape of intake is not the point unless the intake shape is very ugly. The point for turbos is how much amount of air is gonna be sucked up by the filter. The stock filter can not suck up the air as much as AFE. I think every one would agree with this point.
I don't expect 27hp from AFE. I think nobody would believe that 27hp number, but loss of hp compared to stock filter? No way.....It's impossible. If it's right, time to sue the company!!!! Waste the money for nothing!!!
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      09-07-2008, 09:39 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudgepot View Post
Check out the AFE site: http://www.afeproducts.com/IntakeSytemstestold.php

I see no listings for the AFE 135/335 intake. I wonder if their legal department advised them to stop production and pull them off the market pending future litigation?????
1. I doubt they have a "legal dept." Small companies typically do not have an in--house attorney or legal dept.

2. You missed it; it's right here:

http://www.afefilters.com/productrev...72/5411472.htm



btw -- it seems as if most of the aFe intakes for the 335i are sold through AD's and not directly from aFe.
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      09-07-2008, 09:42 PM   #73
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You guys are funny, and sad at the same time.
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      09-08-2008, 12:54 AM   #74
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You guys are funny, and sad at the same time.


I installed my scoops just recently and feels like mid-range torque has improved compared to just having the AFE installed! I can literally hear the air travelling (slight metallic whirling noise) when accelerating 40+ mph! This might actually be a remedy to literally "feed" more cool air to the intake therefore increase in performance. I seriously need to do a dyno or take my baby to a track...... this butt dyno is killing me.
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      09-08-2008, 01:22 AM   #75
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We have contact AFE regarding this and will wait to see what they say.

Did you say 30 minutes for adaptation? We usually would like to see several hundred miles of adaptation before throwing the car on the dyno again.

In your video it was hard to see if there was a fan big enough that can simulate on-road conditions. Hood should be closed for this dyno run as well.
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      09-08-2008, 01:57 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mJ335 View Post


I installed my scoops just recently and feels like mid-range torque has improved compared to just having the AFE installed! I can literally hear the air travelling (slight metallic whirling noise) when accelerating 40+ mph! This might actually be a remedy to literally "feed" more cool air to the intake therefore increase in performance. I seriously need to do a dyno or take my baby to a track...... this butt dyno is killing me.
i think i need to do the same.....not going to waste $320....gotta make this AFE work!
i am a little confused how someone can accurately get true numbers from a dyno on an intake.....how can one fan be enough?....it cant possibly simulate the real world when driving 50...60mph.....never mind about going 80, 90 or 100 mph....
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      09-08-2008, 02:00 AM   #77
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on a dyno you normally do a 4th gear pull. Redline in 4th is easily past 100. The faster the fan blows the better.
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      09-08-2008, 03:47 AM   #78
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I remember when the BMS intakes first started coming out.. everyone loved how it looked and people started buying it as soon as it came out.. I was one of them.. lol and then couple weeks later, someone dynos it and finds out that the BMS lost power compared to the stock intake. Everyone goes crazy and writes that it's because the intake doesn't have a heat shield.. it's sucking up hot air from the engine.. etc etc etc

Looks like it's one of those days
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      09-08-2008, 05:03 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
So, again, how can other dual-cone intakes that also sit at the top of the engine bay (and are not true CAIs) like Terry's BMS dual-cone intake and the Vishnu dual-cone intake provide real gains, but the aFe intake supposedly loses power? Doesn't make sense to me.

From Shiv's technical data about the Vishnu Dual-Cone Intake...

"This is also why drop-in air filter upgrades are only worth a few horsepower and not the 15-25whp we often see with our high flow Dual Intake System!"
You are comparing apples and oranges. If you compare what you can read from the vendors' material, you will see that these are inline. Vishnu 25whp and AFE 27whp.

The other alternative is to compare the independent dyno results, and you will see that the dyno results are pretty much in line again... So don't be

There is not much difference in the cone filters available in the market.
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      09-08-2008, 05:25 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mJ335 View Post
I remember when the BMS intakes first started coming out.. everyone loved how it looked and people started buying it as soon as it came out.. I was one of them.. lol and then couple weeks later, someone dynos it and finds out that the BMS lost power compared to the stock intake. Everyone goes crazy and writes that it's because the intake doesn't have a heat shield.. it's sucking up hot air from the engine.. etc etc etc

Looks like it's one of those days
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      09-08-2008, 05:27 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
We have contact AFE regarding this and will wait to see what they say.

Did you say 30 minutes for adaptation? We usually would like to see several hundred miles of adaptation before throwing the car on the dyno again.

In your video it was hard to see if there was a fan big enough that can simulate on-road conditions. Hood should be closed for this dyno run as well.

Let us know what they say about it.
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      09-08-2008, 07:01 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lane View Post
You are comparing apples and oranges. If you compare what you can read from the vendors' material, you will see that these are inline. Vishnu 25whp and AFE 27whp.

The other alternative is to compare the independent dyno results, and you will see that the dyno results are pretty much in line again... So don't be

There is not much difference in the cone filters available in the market.
Right, so the results for the aFe shouldn't be so different (and so disappointing), especially if Shiv is correct in that it's not really the air temp that's the issue, but rather the amount of air, surface area and flow rate of the air filters that make the difference. My point here is that we should allow more time for others to dyno (hopefully with very large fans to simulate going 60+mph) before coming to any conclusions.
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      09-08-2008, 09:16 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
Right, so the results for the aFe shouldn't be so different (and so disappointing), especially if Shiv is correct in that it's not really the air temp that's the issue, but rather the amount of air, surface area and flow rate of the air filters that make the difference. My point here is that we should allow more time for others to dyno (hopefully with very large fans to simulate going 60+mph) before coming to any conclusions.
But I already came to a conclusion that at low speed with a stock car, cone filters do not gain anything. If anything, they may lose some power. That makes sense due to the higher temps and the fact that the lower pressure drop of cone filters is not that critical at low boost.
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      09-08-2008, 09:59 AM   #84
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Quote:
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But I already came to a conclusion that at low speed with a stock car, cone filters do not gain anything. If anything, they may lose some power. That makes sense due to the higher temps and the fact that the lower pressure drop of cone filters is not that critical at low boost.
Who drives around @ 20mph in their 335i?
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      09-08-2008, 10:58 AM   #85
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Who drives around @ 20mph in their 335i?
I try to keep it under 60 in parking lots etc. Sometimes anyway
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      09-08-2008, 11:00 AM   #86
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      09-08-2008, 11:50 AM   #87
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Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Learning a lot here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
We have contact AFE regarding this and will wait to see what they say.

Did you say 30 minutes for adaptation? We usually would like to see several hundred miles of adaptation before throwing the car on the dyno again.

In your video it was hard to see if there was a fan big enough that can simulate on-road conditions. Hood should be closed for this dyno run as well.
Thanks for checking with them.

To note: the aFe intake had about 200-250 miles of adaptation before dyno day. After three runs, I installed the stock air box and took the car out for about 30 minutes of spirited driving. Returned to the dyno for three more runs. All runs on either intake were performed both hood open and closed.
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      09-08-2008, 11:52 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
We have contact AFE regarding this and will wait to see what they say.

Did you say 30 minutes for adaptation? We usually would like to see several hundred miles of adaptation before throwing the car on the dyno again.

In your video it was hard to see if there was a fan big enough that can simulate on-road conditions. Hood should be closed for this dyno run as well.
Come on Harold, you and I both know it doesn't take a couple hundred miles for adaptation.
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